Hey everyone,

Just floating here on the TipSea ....close enough to the Ship/no ship...to smell the Mexican food. Also been flipping thru the channels...and paused it on the B/A ship...Ciaddict has a point, I know I've been here a while and have barely even touched on talking about the show. And I have a few burning questions....I'm not a shipper, didnt even know what one was before I joined the forum, at first it was weird, then I became intrigued. I'm not a NOROMO,either...The way I see it is, there's always...always a possibility. So I guess that'd make me, Abnormal.



Its just somedays I get really into the B/A ship thread, Can sit for hours watching the drama unfold in new and suprising ways (Amuse Me Wenches!!) lol...then somedays I like to flip to a good comedy/scifi...(Ship/No ship) I can get a buzz just from the alcohol fumes comming from that yacht!!...either way, I enjoy the shows. I didnt want to clutter up those two threads with my psychobabble, so here I am. I called this thread the TipSea on acccount of its a tipsy turrvy kinda place. And people can "Tip" one way or another here. "Sea?"...lol...get it....heh heh....tap tap...is this thing on?



Anyway, I didnt know where to go to talk, and I have a few burning questions...Ive seen the episode Silence...silencer? before, and thought that Gorens irritated reaction to the Interpreter was just because he felt inferior in his sign language, couldnt interrorgate and question people the way he's use to.

But now, thanks to the Shippers...everyone say Thanks Shippers!...I see it a bit differently....



Goren actually eyeballed the guy when he first got to the scene, especially when Eames took her glove off to shake his hand...then it looked like Goren just dismissed it ...Next thing is this scene at the ice rink...why is Goren so hostile towards this guy? Is it because of the whole, he wont play nice and tell me what I want to know? He looks to Alex for help and she says she's staying out of it? Like he wanted her to talk him into it or something...choose sides?



Then Robert looks, I dunno...discusted here...like a shunned guy who likes the girl who likes the other guy...lol...do you understand? There has to be an underlining reason other then the sign language barrier. I know he gets this way when he really wants to solve the case, but its just something about the way he looks at this fella...is it jealousy?






And here...Look how depressed he looks..I mean, ya hes anxious to get information on the case but...why so sad? Then the way he just kinda sits there looking at them expectantly. Poor Robert seems to be on an emotional rollercoaster in this episode...What am I supposed to think here people?






Look how...sad? he is...

I have tons more questions....like Is Alex intrested in this guy? DONK DONK Does Robert feel a pang of jealousy of the relationship he sees forming? DONK DONK Why is Ross trying to fix her up, they didnt seem that close to me? Other episode question plague me as well, PLAGUE ME I SAY!...What did Robert feel about Eames's pregnancy..Donk Donk I mean, he seemed neutral at first then he gets all lonely for his partner, and starts tossing paper about.



....That to me shows that Eames does much more then carry his water in their relationship. He relies on her on a whole new level. The way he tried to get back into her good graces...sweet.DONK DONK AND, just what were Goren and Eames's sleeping arrangements when they went to ..Japan? and the Inn looking for Donnie together?...ok enough with the Donk Donk...was just for dramatic effect...



I know some of you out there have answers or opinions to these burning questions...I would really love to have both Shipper and Non, to give me their input...or...I can just float out here...all by my lonesome...*sigh*...hoping no one has a harpoon trained at the dinghy!

Ah-Woo-Gah!!

ahoy kayne ... i can always paddle my canadian canoe around a visit ... i've got an evinrude in case of attacks.
LOVE THE DECOR!! so many lovely pictures ... and they're SHIPPY, too. i'm in heaven.

kayne honey, yer a shipper. (i know, i know, "Labels.") welcome to insanity! you are in good company. (well, I think we're good company - utterly crazy, but good.)

i swear, i was SRSLY pissed off for weeks after i saw 'untethered' because i realized i'd been watching EVERY DAY for years, missed this massive subplot, and i felt stupid. ('they can't be ... they're effing partners fer cryin out loud!!!!! ... why didn't i notice before???') one of the reasons i came out here was because i didn't know what happened - they left poor Bobby standing in Times Square and ... then what ? i had to know.

(doink doink)

'silencer' is a good intro to this subject. the pic you posted of Bobby at their desks, alone, with his hand over his mouth is excellent - that is Goren's "I am really, really upset" tell. check the entire series ... he uses this gesture rarely. like when he uncovers his dead brothers face. and here. so, what's he really upset about. oh, here comes eames, in red, with that nice, nice, nice wannabe. THAT'S what he's upset about.

i am deeply engrossed in a season-by-season analysis of colours ... especially red and blue ... as they appear in costume and setting.
okay, yes. i am obsessed. i am. i can own that.
but it beats the hell out of worrying about sh*t i can't change. this is fun.

another pic ... just because i learned how to make screen stills and i like it.
'alpha dog'

they don't smile enough. he has such a nice smile, too.

Hmmm......nice little dinghy you have here, Kayne. There were suggestions on the shipper thread, and from people who PM'd me as well, to have another thread for the purposes of debate. Someone....Tigger? had suggested "All In", which I thought was clever. I had been thinking "The Great Ship/No Ship Debate", which didn't sound as clever after hearing "All In". But now I think maybe The TipSea might make a nice thread for all the ship/no ship debate, as well as discussion of the show and episodes in general. You, know...the dinghy can "Tip" either way. LOL OK, OK...it's late and I'm tired.

As for all your burning questions, Kayne...I can't wait! Unfortunately, as I said...it's late and I'm tired. So I won't go into detail right now about my thoughts on all your burning questions. And I do have thoughts on all of them. I'll give you a hint, though (this may surprise some of you)....my thoughts are that none of the above is shippy. Shocking, I know.

I hope...I really, really hope...that the shippers will present some or all of their reasoning here, because there is so MUCH I want to discuss. But I liked Tigger's suggestion that whatever is said in each camp's sandbox is open for discussion amongst their peers. I will leave those topics alone unless and until you bring them here. So please, please, please bring them here! You don't even have to try to rephrase them...I'm a big fan of copy and paste.

Hi Kayne! Great idea for the TipSea

I remember the episode you mentions, so I guess I'll write my non-shipper two cents.

First of all, I don't remember the episode as in detail as I would need and I don't have the taped copy with me so I can't really re-watch it.

What I do remember is that at first I thought Goren was slightly annoyed because the guy's attention was clearly directed towards Eames and not him. My take on that was that he is the junior partner indeed, but he usually leads the investigation, especially the questioning. But this time the guy was paying more attention to his partner. So in a certain way we was sort of left saying "hello?! you two... hello?! I'm here. I do the questioning, I do the mind tricks on the suspect..."

And Eames even goes to say that Goren doesn't know the Sign Language enough to stand an interrogation. HA! I can't believe it. He doesn't know something?? See, I think the comment would have been fine between them two, but doesn't she say it to the guy? And Goren is there... She's sort of stepping in, 'pushing' Goren away. He can't lead the interrogation, we'll have to call an interpreter.
He's lacking something and she publicly says so. Not nice, Eames...

So maybe he's upset out of a pride attack? No leading role this time...

Other hypothesis come to my mind, but I think I'll cut it here for now

I can see your point here globetrottersara. From a non-shipping stand point, no romnace implied. Couldn' t Goren's irritation, etc be born out of plain ole' jealousy? Not love fueled jealousy, but "hey that's my partner and we solve crimes really well together, back off" jealousy. As a shipper, of course I think Bobby's radar is tweaked because there's another guy openly sniffing around Eames. But I also think he's a bit tweaked because, to him, their detective partnership is sacred and he might be a lil' possesive over it, and not for romantic reasons persay.

A lot of the "romantic' behavior could be explained away as Bobby's obsessiveness and possesiveness over the crime solving partnership with Eames. And a lot of that has to do with her being the first co-worker to ever stick by him for any length of time. Also because she sticks by him like a crazed pit bull, even after he immerses himself selfishly in his own personal ca-ca. Of course you noromos don't really want me to elaborate on why Eames stays

Wow, Kayne, you picked some really good pics for your ROMO theory of "Silencer." Almost enough to convince me.


What bugs me sometimes about being obsessed over this show is I can't change it. I guess we differ there.

Kayne, thanks for starting this new "ship" up. However, I think you're gonna need a bigger boat. A lot of us want to come visit and mingle. I brought food again today: lasagna (both a meat one and a vegetarian option), a Caesar salad, and the Folie a Deux merlot


so eat, drink and be merry!

BTW, I would also like to propose that Folie a Deux be the official winery of the ship/noship/tipsea subforum, but that's up to y'all.

Um, and I think uni is right--you're a shipper. I'll post more later, but just wanted to say hello to you and everyone else who's here.

Hey uni, got any dessert? One of the other shippers had also offered to bake before, but I can't remember who . . . .

oh hai. i got dessert.

some bars from Nanaimo (the good kind)

and some maple syrup
and a big old for everyone ... see, we can too play together.

a point for comparison ... (kayne, i hope it's okay i moved this pic here)


i feel like i can see all the noromo points, because i guess i was a 'firm noromo' for the first five years i watched the show.
but i can't find any other reasonable explanation for a whole bunch of things ... (as kayne is here, having a hard time with getting a whole bunch of things that don't make sense ... unless you cast a look through your shippy eye.)

i spy with my shippy eye -
Eames is in Purgatory, too. she looks so sad with just his books to keep her company.

This is an excellent idea Kayne And your pics are making me feel extra shippy
Ok, here's my two cents on "Silencer" and the time around Eames's leave

I would of been of the fence concerning "Silencer" if it weren't for these 3 parts:
1) In the start like Kayne mentioned, we see an uneasy Eames at Peter's coming. Bobby did notice that and I bet that was no good news for him: Peter had an impact on her (lol).
2) This empty chair moment was put to confirm something to us (or make us think of something). If Bobby didn't like Peter because of this whole case related thing, I doubt the writers would put in a "duplication of the F.P.S moment"... You could see the sadness on his face when he was writing with his forehead leaning into his hand (he needed a hug right there *awww*). Then he looks up at Eames' empty chair passing his hand on his mouth (anxious tell, like uni. said). He felt lonely and abandoned. He probably was asking himself "is she gonna leave me too?"


A few moments later, Eames and Peter pop into the room (btw Peter had to call out his name for him to notice their entrance: he was lost in his (yearning) thoughts). And after Eames and Peter explain to him what they were up to, you'd think that he'd be like "okay whatever they got something without me" but no he seemed pissed and hurt you can (well, if you want too) smell the jealously on his face. To me his face was saying "O... that's how thing are..."
When another person (detective... whoever) brings something to the table he doesn't get angry or hurt over it, no way!


3) This one is about parallels. Well the bad guy (not good at remembering names) was scared for his girlfriend not to abandon him like his sister did. Weird coincidence, Bobby also was abandon and we know Eames is the one person who stayed. He was afraid that Peter could of contributed to Eames abandoning him. I remember in the last scene, in the interrogation room he told the suspect something close too "you were worried that she was going to abandon you?".... I'm just not that big on coincidences
And before the credits close, Bobby gave Eames that last look (aww).... And we see Peter and Bobby sitting next to each other and Eames is on Bobby's side... I think the writers/directors were telling us something there.

As for the captain pointing out to Eames that Peter seems like a decent guy, well I think the writers inserted that to show us that Peter could of been a 'candidate' I mean sort of like to confirm to us what we saw when Peter just stepped into the room at the beginning.... But I'm really not sure what to think about that moment though. Some believe that the captain might of suspected that Eames and Bobby were too close so he was trying to drift her away from him?... But Idk
After Ross told her that, we could see she was think of something... I wonder what exactly. Well, for sure she didn't hook up with Peter...

As for this moment where Peter is next to Eames and Bobby seems to not like the situation, like scarlet. put it, Bobby is possessive (lol). He was probably thinking that he was the one who was supposed to be next to her (like usually-- to not say all the time). Also he would rather be the one providing the information Peter was giving. And because of in the start when Peter came in, we clearly saw that he noticed Eames' uneasiness and his face was not liking it (lol), I conclude that the look on his face in that moment shines with jealous too (poor Bobby).


As for the time around Eames' maternity leave, well he knew he was going to miss her (oh no, I didn't even think of that!) but he had no clue that he was gonna miss her that much.
It's kinda funny, cute and childish, the way he was missing her despite her presence. Again like scarlet. said he is possessive. That was just so bad of him to compare Bishop to Eames like that (lol)... Poor Bishop.
Then we have the famous "F.P.S", I understand ciaddict's point when she said that him missing Eames was compared to a guy missing his partner. However, the bad guy in "F.P.S" really wanted their game to be done by December and his partner was slowly drifting away from him for good. He wasn't sure if the dude was gonna get back on track, you know? While Bobby, he knew that Eames was gonna come back to him eventually but he was still awfully missing her. He almost had a panic attack a few moments before throwing that wad of paper on her desk. I mean hey, who doesn't find that terribly sweet??? I decided to label the yearning for Eames (not just F.P.S....): Shippy



She actually said that in the hallway before saying "Hey" to Bobby... Goren could of heard though...


And the food looks delicious people

Nice match up uni.

Note the book on Bobby's desk....

Brain Control

It's a tell!

JK

Chimera speaking (struggles to keep her life jacket from riding up)
I was also thinking that Goren might be a bit tweaked
that he couldn't keep up with the signing. I think his
understanding of human emotions is theoretical rather
than from experience. Sign language requires ability
to take sustained meaning from emotional cues as well
as hand movements. He can analyse a micro expression,
but he can't be right brained enough to really get sign. And
that is also why he is so emotionally constipated with Eames.

**fingers in ears, shaking my head back and forth** NOOooooooooo..No. I can not be a shipper...abnormal here, remember? I do not have a "shippers eye"! Sheesh....



I just like kicking back watching you guys ...lol...I like the way you shippers think. The way you know his "tells" and expressions, and study their body language...its really fascinating to watch. I also have an obsession with the darkness and shadows of the way its filmed. From Gorens dark suits and bright, patterned ties, to the redheads, pops of blues and greens and reds everywhere. I think it adds alot to the show in itself.



Sorry Tigger, if I jumped the gun on your All In idea...didnt mean to knock it overboard...maybe that can be the title of the thread everyone is discussing down on the regular boards...everyones All In..? I dunno..



By the way, why am I hearing the Jaws theme song? lol...

This dinghy is perfectly accommodating. Its my "Puff The Magic Dragon", ( a little tribute to Peter, Paul and Mary...who recently passed..rip, Mary ). ..dinghy of requierment. Anything you need...**poof** there it is. Like now, with everyone here, we are in need of a lounge/bar area...

. **poof**




Ahh, thats better, lots of room to groove now...plenty of space for all this food!

I like the matching Goren/Eames pictures...its cool..Ive got a couple of them myself...I noticed that they do alot of mimicry, and play off each other well...no shippers I didnt say play with each other well! ...But they do ALOT of head tilting together..



Thanks Unsteady, I have more from this series, to fill in some blanks...I just didnt want to totally flood the thread on my first post, but here they are..






I like how Goren got closer...and closer...lol





Heres more of the office scene...




he perked up for a second...




But...now he looks hurt again...

I also have the rest of the ones you shippers and Ciaddict were asking "just where is his hand?" at...( shame on you ladies! ) if you want to see..Mind you, I have no idea what episode they are from or even the scene itself....if you want to see them let me know, maybe you guys can shed some light on it for me.



But on the other hand...I totally didnt see that whole junior partner angle either, that Sara mentioned...maybe he was just pissy about that? Or what Chimera said about "not keeping up in the sign language"..I thought that myself....but then, someone else...umm, I'm thinking Bogoalexa? Scarlet? said what she said about the whole Peter, Robert Alex triangle and now my mind is boggeling again!



Non Shippers HELP! Ciaddict, Unsteady, Sara, HELP!!...anyone? The shippers are making more points! They are tippin the boat, pulling me ...AArugghhh...Buddha?! Zeus?! God?! Somebody help me! Satan?! You owe me one!!!



Ok...now I need a drink...see ya at the bar.

::jumps into dinghy and settles on the NOROMO side::

Don't worry Kayne...I carry enough weight to counterbalance the shippers! So here's the thing with the pictures...take a look at the caption it game and you will see that you can make a picture say anything. Pictures are great for capturing details, but I believe it takes details in addition the the whole picture to truly tell a story. And I'm really more of a big picture gal anyway. Really...I took a test once. So although I already have my thoughts on these episodes, and have spouted them more than once, I need to see them again and take into consideration the points the shippers have presented. Unfortunately my season three dvds are with my daughter-in-law right now so F.P.S. is out of the question tonight. I may be able to wing it on that one. But I definitely need to see Silencer again. So I'll watch that and come back to discuss it.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to recover from watching The Last House on the Left tonight. The Teenager watched the first 20 minutes or so at her boyfriend's house and wanted to rent it so we could watch it. And I wanted to see it anyway because Tony Goldwyn is in it. I can't remember the last time I screamed, "OMIGODOMIGODOMIGODOMIGOD!" while hiding my head in my arms during a movie. I will say, though, that Tony is awesome...no Frank Goren in THIS movie.

I guess I was so freaked out by the movie that I forgot to make my Big Point. Before I even start explaining what I spy with my NOROMO eye (drat! the shippers have a better saying...we'll have to work on that), I wanted to say that I have read most of the shipper reasoning and tells and so on. And I understand your reasoning, I really do. I just see it differently. And this, I think, is the genius of LOCI. We know that the writers (at least the writers under Warren Leight) check out this board from time to time. They have sent messages to us and when there were huge arguments going on over whether VDO was letting the writers and the fans down by not doing something publicly to support the strike, suddenly he showed up on the picket line and *poof* the writers e-mailed pictures to our own VDOVault to share with us. And there was the tie clip bit in Amends and the size 13 shoe bit in Smile...I believe with all my heart the writers have seen the endless discussions about those things here on the board and threw those in just for us fans.

So...I believe they have also seen all the ship/no ship discussions. And they deliberately throw things in that can be read either way. Nothing concrete enough for the NOROMOs to go, "Ohhhh....so they ARE after all!" but just enough to keep the shippers from giving up hope. This forum came into being sometime during season 5. I'm not sure about the one on the NBC board, maybe earlier? But I think that's the reason most of the "tells" are season 6 and on. That's also when Warren Leight took over. I suspect Rene Balcer couldn't care less about ship/no ship. Now I know some of you shippers find things earlier, like with F.P.S. But I think anything before season 6 is unintentional on the writers' part. But feel free to disagree.

oh man, I didn't think about that, ciaddict!
Well... thinking of the seasons, you're right most of the "tells" are in the last 3 seasons, more or less. Before that, it's sporadic and less "clear cut". Mmm... too bad I also don't have the dvd and tapes with me. Shucks, give me a week and I'll come up with captions and theories

Silencer:
The look Eames gives Peter when he introduces himself...sorry, but she's interested. I wish I could do screencaps, but I can't figure it out. And she calls him Peter when talking about him. When she talks about Bobby, she calls him Goren. She calls him Bobby when she is talking to him. Bobby is focused on the case...he's still examining the body while Alex takes a good, long look at the cute interpreter detective.

The scene when G/E arrive outside Strauss' office...Peter is definitely happy to see "Alexandra". But I don't think Bobby is jealous...honestly, I still don't think he noticed yet. He went directly to look in the boxes and found the prescription pads, while Peter is making googly eyes at Eames. As always, Bobby is focused on the case. At this point, I don't think Peter's interest in Eames is on his radar.

The looks Bobby is giving Peter as the three of them are walking...watching that entire scene, I don't see any signs of Bobby being jealous of the attention that Peter is giving Eames. He is looking like that because he is zeroing in on Peter's obvious bias in favor of the deaf community, his resistance to considering that a deaf person could be responsible. As a side note, I forced The Teenager to watch some of these scenes with me to give me her view....about this scene she said, "Eames looks annoyed with him (Peter), too."

The ice rink: I love this scene! I love the interaction between Bobby and Peter. And for the record, I agreed with Bobby on the issue of "eavesdropping" on the deaf couple at a public place like the rink. But later I agreed with Peter when he refused to tell them what Larry and his lawyer were saying to one another. Again, I see no subtext in this scene about Bobby being jealous. He is (sorry to keep repeating myself) focused on the case. He wants to know what the deaf couple are saying to one another. Once Peter finally gives in, they are almost buddy/buddy for a moment. When the couple begin to hide their hands, Bobby is almost as amused as I am at Peter turning his own words back on him. "We have no expectation of privacy." He leaves and misses Peter's moment with Eames, revealing a bit of himself. And the expression on Eames' face...I don't know, sort of...considering what he has just told her.

Bobby at his desk before Eames and Peter come in: Since I have seen nothing up until this moment that indicates Bobby is even aware that there are any undercurrents between Eames and Peter, I can't really read jealousy into his body language here. Mind you, I'm not saying Bobby is NOT aware of the undercurrents, just that I don't see any indications that he is aware. So what's going on here? Just Bobby being focused, making notes....his glance at Eames' desk is...I don't know.

Sorry guys...it's after midnight here and I have to get up and get ready for my daughter's baby shower tomorrow. If I get up early enough I'll come back and finish. If not, I'll continue tomorrow afternoon. I really, really wanted to get it all down tonight, but my brain turns to a pumpkin at midnight so I need to go. 'Night.

Lets imagine that indeed the writers are putting up these tells here and there just to not let shippers lose hope. Don't you all think (try to put yourself in shippers' shoes for a bit) that it would be a little to cruel if at the end we see Goren hooked up with somebody and Eames with somebody else? Hmm? I'm not saying that B/A need to officially hook up for the writers not to be too cruel, kiss and all the blahblahblah, no! I think the least the writers can do is let them both still be single at the end. Like that, each clan can draw their own conclusions....

However (well, I bet you all know this), I firmly believe that these two characters ending up in each others arms would be justice for them...

And yes, Eames had a little interest in Peter (like I posted earlier). However I do believe that Goren did notice it in the start like we viewers have. I mean hey, if we noticed it, why wouldn't Bobby, the man full of insight???

As for Eames referring to Peter as "Peter" in front of the captain and to Bobby as "Goren", well yes, me too I always noticed that. I take it that she wants to be professional. Anyways after all they are partners...
However in "Untethered", she did refer to him as "Bobby". Where the captain sent Goren out, Eames stood up from her chair and said "I know you're worried about Bobby up state..." Maybe at the moment, she was kinda too emotional so the 'Goren code' slipped out of her mouth... Just saying

this meeting of the minds is wonderful. nice lounge, kayne. anyone know how to play that keyboard?


i am spreading eggshells all over the dingy deck right now ... not meaning to offend - i just have some other information to offer here ...
people who are left handed are inherently/biologically 'right brained'. there's a whole bunch of science about this - most people have our language processing areas in our left hemisphere, sort-of behind our left ear. lefties have theirs in the right hemisphere. it's really fascinating. many dyslexics also have these centers in the other side of their brain. no-one knows why, but we do know there is a preponderance of 'gifted genius' type people who are left handed. (true of dyslexics, too).
lefties also get hurt more than right-handed people.
not meaning to be a wet blanket, chimera. because otherwise i was like "Gasp!" at your point about his understanding of emotions being theoretical. so well put. and 'emotionally constipated with Eames' ... (unicorn gets a glass of cold water.)
so, when he starts signing in the aria, i was like 'he IS a super-hero.'


(they read our forum? hmm. that's sort-of cool.)

agreed!
i get what you're saying about my shippy eye being a 'selective vision eye', too. you're right - but for me, watching with my shippy eye has revealed another story (an interesting story, too.) at first viewing, i found both 'silencer' and 'betrayed' quite dull in comparison to other episodes before i got shippy. honestly - after eps like 'blind spot' and 'purgatory'?? a bit of a disappointment. for me, that's because i found both of those cases boring. i didn't care about any of the suspects or even the victims ... sorry, i am a cold hearted unicorn, but it's true.
compared to say 'jones' in which i was completely engaged by the case and all the characters involved (i love 'jones') - just plain old boring. why would they make episodes around boring cases when they clearly know how to do interesting ones ... ??
i wondered about that, because i've noticed - shipper, noromo or swiss - we tend to name the same episodes as our favourites.
i'd have to say that, in spite of a dead-dull case, 'betrayed' has gone from 'meh' to an all-time favourite because of the kind of careful watching i employ with my shippy eye. it's not an eye i would normally use for television, being generally reserved for more academic endeavours. (oh unicorn - get over yourself.) i watched that interview from France, too, so i know the big guy said there's no art in television. but, i didn't notice any of the details we shippers SQUEAL with delight over until i'd watched 'betrayed' like five times. that's not because the details aren't there or that they aren't deliberate. i didn't notice because that's how it is with ci - it's coming in under the radar. which is too cool. i've concluded that boring cases* are an indication that 'subtle subtext is being spooned out through symbolism and/or extended parallel story' (as in 'identity crisis' - boring case, but gives insight into goren's character development and a glimpse at his healing process.)
(* sometimes they're just boring. 'wrongful life'? what was that? ... with deepest apologies to everyone who loves that ep.)

it's fun that we can watch in different ways, too. and this debate keeps me thinking, keeps the theories sharp. (have had me throw one in the trash more than once ... )

i love the photo sequence, kayne - the way goren is framed in the shot is brilliant. (yes, yes, there's no art in television, BUT) he towers over them ... he is in between them ... he is being left out, left behind ... he has to struggle to hear what's being said ... so much information conveyed with visuals.
imo, two things confirm that this is a boring case / shippy episode - the hand-on-mouth tell ... the 'inference through parallel' conversation between Eames and Peter at the rink.
okay. shutting up now.

I am pathetic. I don't even have the attention span to read all of that. O.o

~kerli~

sorry

in summary,
SHIP!

Oh okay.

And whats' the TIP sea?

~kerli~

Hmmmmm. I think what you're talking about up there Unicorn is a form of hermenutics. Deep stuff. Too deep for this late afternoon, want to take a nap brain of mine.

It does make sense that viewing the epsiodes through the new filter you created helps you enjoy the episodes more. I understand that. It's just that I don't see it through the same filter you do. I pretty much agree with ciaddicts post. Can I just say "what she said!." Except, yeah, Bobby may have noticed the chemistry between the interpreter and Eames (I mean, you are right if WE did and ROSS did, wouldn't Bobby?) but I don't think he cares. I don't see him as jealous in a romantic way in this episode.

And how do we know Eames never went on to date him? The only non-family member I've heard her talk about is her dead husband. We know she's not just sitting at home every night playing free cell (at least I hope not), so we don't really know that they never shared a dinner or two. She has to have a life, we just don't get to know about it.

Now if you want to talk about shippy behavior, I agree with ciaddict. Just look at the ballistics gal and Bobby walking along that balcony when they're trying to find out where the shooter was located in the duel episode. They're smiling, just strolling along. Yeah, they're comfortable with each other. I'd like to think they could date!

Ok, otta here! Ship on, ladies!

Ok, you're right she could of dated him but I just thought that if she did it would of been implied somehow... But you're right she could of; CI doesn't imply things all the time.
However it's for sure that things didn't work out (or last) between them...

Hi All - I'm sure no one can guess where I stand on this whole ship/no ship thing can they?

Both sides have posted some very valid points, but again I have to admit to seeing nothing the least bit shippy in the Silencer episode. Even in looking at the pictures that were posted, I see a very frustrated detective who cannot fully investigate what has happened because of his inability to communicate with those involved. Bobby is thorough and used to being in control of most any situation. In dealing with the hearing impaired, he can communicate on a 'social' level but not to the depth needed to gather information. He is not a man accustomed to having to ask anyone for assistance and asking Peter, and having Peter refuse, causes a bit of temper in our fine detective.

Is Alex interested in Peter? Most definitely. Is Peter interested in Alex? Without a doubt. Does Bobby notice, probably, not much escapes his keen eye. Does he care in a romantic way - no, I don't think he does. He does care that he's taken a back seat - rather than being able to direct where the investigation goes, he has to allow Alex and Peter to work together - and wait for Peter to cooperate and/or share as he sees fit. I have always thought that Bobby's impatience with Peter was based more on the fact that Peter didn't seem to translate as quickly as Bobby would like (or not translate at all for fear of eavesdropping). Bobby's mind moves at an amazing pace and I think a lot of what we see is his frustration that other's (in this case Peter) simply don't seem to keep up with his train of thought and need to work the investigation.

Bobby gazing at Alex's chair - I don't think he's pining for her. I think he's miffed that they took off without him and don't care if he's involved in the case or not, just my opinion. Bobby and Alex are partners and I think he's feeling left out and more than just a little unhappy about the fact on a work level, sort of like your office ordering lunch without asking you.

While I agree that I can see the shipper's point of view and why you believe what you do, I have never felt that Alex and Bobby are involved, nor want to be. They have a partnership that works based on their own individual strengths. Comments have been made and important information not shared amongst the characters.

Aaah, Silencer. So many parallel themes, so many tells. *sigh* I apologize in advance for the length of this. It's the "professor" in me.

First off, as a clarification point that I have made on the B/A thread before, I am also a big picture person. Well, actually, it goes both ways--the abundance of trees proves the forest, as the existence of the forest proves trees are there. I know many if not all the shippers do not view shippiness as a form of the Caption It game. If that were the case, there would be shippy signs everywhere in every episode. But they pop up strongly at some times and not at others--not every interaction between the dynamic duo is "shippy". I also suspect that every current shipper was once a noromo (I was), so coming to the shippy side was, at least for me, difficult because I thought I must be losing my mind. I got here to the LOCI board from googling "are Goren and Eames in love" because I was convinced that I was seeing things. Now I know that if I am, I am going crazy together with my shipmates. I know I've said it enough before, but context is imperative, and subtle is very very good. I can actually argue that the context makes some scenes shippy.

There are a couple of themes going on in Silencer. One is the separatist/inclusionist theme, and one is the silenced/being "heard" theme. Eames mentions to a CSI guy that they'll need an interpreter to do a witness interview, which is why Peter is brought in in the first place. Goren is way down the hall, kneeling on the ground, and considering the bustle (the fiance DA remarks about the number of people traipsing through the crime scene), he may or may not have heard it. I don't think Eames meant to push Goren away at all with that remark, and I know they could have shot that scene with her further down the hallway or into the room had the line been meant for Goren to overhear. Peter shows up shortly thereafter, and I do briefly see some interest on Eames' face as she shakes his hand. She knows Peter's interested, and she's curious but guarded. From the look on Bobby's face, he sees what's up as well. That guy reads body language and expressions way too well to not pick up on this. But after this initial "hmm" on Alex's part, she shows no other interest in Peter nor encourages him at all (I'll flesh this out below).

When the crowd of three is outside Strauss's office, the pictures do show a ticked off/jealous/shut out Bobby. The question, of course, is why. One thing I saw but can't screen capture (short explanation--my computer is dying so I'm not downloading anything onto it) is Bobby rolling his eyes when Peter starts explaining the history of cochlear implants. This is "I can take this [physical and intellectual] shrimp down so fast he'll be crying for his mommy within 60 seconds".

As a quick aside, there are several "silencers" in this ep. There is the potato silencer on the gun, and there is Tommy, the perp, who silenced the otic surgeon both by stepping on his voice box and then by killing him. But Peter is also a silencer. Whether it's right or isn't right, Peter prevents Goren from getting info from people who are signing. Even when Goren has a good idea of generally what people are saying, Peter is very reluctant to (or will not) assist (in the ice rink, Bobby can make out that they are fighting and shouting . . . there's the sign for Larry, etc.). Peter's body language in the Strauss office scene when he is walking with Eames is also "silencing" Bobby; Peter is clearly trying to connect with Eames and doesn't seem to want to engage Bobby. The irony of Peter in the ep is that within the deaf community he is an inclusionist, bringing both deaf and hearing-impaired together, but with Bobby and Alex he is a separatist, splitting Eames away from her partner.

At the ice rink, you can tell Bobby and Alex are on the same page because they are mirroring each other with their body language: leaning forward, elbow on knee, bent arm up to face. Alex's body language with Peter is completely different when Bobby leaves. She sits back, head straight up, while Peter uses the body language Alex previously had with Bobby--leaning forward, and then slightly towards her. Plus one for Bobby in this game: Alex ain't interested in Peter. The Malia/Tommy couple is also meant to parallel Alex and Bobby, wrapped up in their own safe little world, each "cocooning" the other.

When Peter and Alex are having coffee together, you can tell again that Alex is not interested in him by her body language and tone of voice. C'mon girls, you know how to flirt back at a guy when you're single--she ain't flirting at all (and as we shippers suspect, she ain't single either ) So Ross shows up and says "seems like a decent guy", but Alex doesn't "hear" Ross, because she's off thinking in her own little world, like the 2 deaf coupled-up skaters. There's no smile on her face after Ross says this--she's not drifting off thinking about Peter. You could argue that she's thinking about the case, and she almost certainly is, but that doesn't mean she's not thinking about the bigger picture of herself and Bobby too.

One other aside--the separatist theme is also played out through the ep using Ross. There are at least 3 times, maybe 4, when we see Ross talking to Alex without Bobby around. Why do we have 2 characters in this ep trying to pull this team apart?

And as far as the "names" thing goes, Peter calls Alex "Alexandra" (just like Mulrooney does in Lady's Man). When Bobby slips, he calls her Alex, which is much more personal and familiar. Tough-shelled Eames has let Bobby into her personal space far more than Peter (and even Kevin, as we find out in season 8).

Thank you to whomever figured out that parallel desk scene thing (kayne? bogoalexea? uni? all 3?) because that brings up a director-centered point: the scenes are shot at the same angle ( 1 o'clock, with the camera at eye level with the desk, looking up on our characters). Parallel direction means that the same emotion is meant to be carried through to the mirroring scene. Therefore Bobby's mood in FPS = Bobby's mood in Silencer = Alex's mood in Purgatory = yearning (which is the mood exhibited the first time the mirrored scene was shot). The direction proves these 2 feel the same way about each other.

And kudos to bogoalexea and uni for showing the "shippy" parallels point, which is really the heart of the episode: the fear of abandonment and losing the one you love. Silencer follows TWAH and comes before Endgame in season 6. Bobby's got lots o' garbage going on and has already started making scenes at work. By Endgame, he's really losing it (understandably so). But this is a foreshadowing (a reiteration, actually) that Alex will not be leaving Bobby, no matter how "good" the alternate choices look. By the end of Silencer, Bobby is the victorious one--see his body language at the interrogation table vs. Peter's and the fact that Alex is blocked (in the acting sense) next to Bobby. Actually, the "fear of losing the one you love" theme is all throughout the G/E eps in season 6 -- Blind Spot, Siren Call, Albatross, Brother's Keeper. . . . So, folks, given all the poop Bobby's throwing at Alex that season, why does she not cut and run, especially when other alternatives are presented to her? In Albatross, Frances Goren (through Bobby) says "If she stays in it, she must be getting something out of it". Hmmm . . . we can take this up later.

Thanks for listening, y'all!

Exactly why I converted.

~kerli~

You always amaze me tigger. with your analysis (body language, parallels etc.)
As for the bold part, I just posted something similar (you know concerning the empty chair moments....) on the B/A thread right before reading this post! Weird

And really, from the way Eames answered Ross you could feel the disinterest...


Left-brain/right-brain topic:
Actually from the very first CI ep ever aired ("One"), it's been said that Bobby is right-brained (Deakins-- "I know a right-brained guy like you..."

I download betrayed, which you said had a tell in it. I couldn't find it.

Any help?

~kerli~

The name TipSea for Kayne's dinghy was, I believe, a play on words based on all the talk of alcohol consumption that takes place on the TSONTS thread. And now, for this thread, it is a play on words based on the ship/no ship viewpoints that will "tip" the dinghy one way and then another.

Feel free to correct me, Kayne.


Sooooo many good posts here. And I haven't even finished going through Silencer. Once I've done that, I may respond to specific comments...or maybe not; there are so many I could spend all of my time here. But I will say I am THRILLED that Tigger brought up the parallel between the desk scenes of F.P.S., Silencer, and Purgatory. I have seen that parallel as well and am anxious to comment on it. Bet you're all dying of suspense to see if I see it with a shippy eye or a NOROMO eye. I was sort of hesitating because I want to watch F.P.S. again before commenting and it is with my daughter-in-law at the moment. But I may attempt it. But first I need to finish Silencer.

Silencer is on Bravo tonight. Heeheehee.

The only question is whether I can stay up until midnight to watch it.

Did you make it?


My 2 cents on the name thing... Peter calling Eames "Alexandra" is because they don't know each others. My guess is, she officially is Det. Alexandra Eames on papers, reports etc etc... So, if the situation is such that we switch to names and don't use the surnames anymore, and I don't know the other person enough to use the short name (Alex in this case) or even know that she has one, I use the name. Period. Which is Alexandra.
Goren knows she also answers to "Alex" but his relationship with her is certainly not as superficial as Peter's.

Other examples:
Wheeler is Det. Megan Wheeler. I think I heard a couple of times Megan, but I've never heard Meg.
Falacci has never been called Nora, lol, if so, I can't recall the episode.
Barek... Carolyn, mmm... seldom heard too

For the men, it's a little different. Logan is most often called Logan, occasionally Mike. Cragen calls him Mikey. On his desk you see Det. Michael Logan but I don't think anyone has ever called him "Michael", lol.
Goren... OK, shippers don't shoot me if I'm wrong, but I think only Eames calls him Bobby some times. (I'm only considering the "office people", not Goren's family etc...) He's mostly called Goren, right? When he introduces himself to someone, I think I recall him saying Det. Robert Goren or Det. Goren. So, Bobby is like Alex. He doesn't call her Alexandra and she doesn't call him Robert.

And I think I am not going to re-explain again why all this is not shippy to me, lol. The name thing just got me digress maybe??

You are absolutly correct about the TipSea Ciaddict...it can multi-task.





Whew! Thanks Ciaddict, Judy, Sara! The TipSea was listing dangerously to the side! Think its leveling out now...*deep breath*..whew...Scared myself for a minute there! My eyes got all foggy and I started hearing Journeys, "Open Arms"...



I watched Sliencer again last night. Your right Ciaddict, my first impression was correct, Goren is simply walking towards Eames and Peter. He's trying to hear every word, see every affect on his face, and catch every neuance there is in the conversation. For some reason the pictures look kinda shippy...I dunno...You shippers make one hell of an arguement. When I watch your show or read your detailed posts...your confidence is infectious! I see what you see, feel what you feel...OH..You girls are so wiley!



But, then I watch the show and I go with my gut instinct.



Their just partners...and are only as close as good partners get..I think the reason Goren blows up at his brother about the "get a hotel" comments is because, how dare he...how dare his brother, who knows nothing about him or his life, ...Taint...what he and Eames do have together! A deep respect and understanding for each others feelings and friendship.



I think Alex represents the only good thing in his life. She's the only one who cares about him as a person that is ...stable... Look back on his life, dad, a gambler, womanizer..possible drinker (not sure on that one)...His mom...Schizophrenia (very unstable childhood).. Brother..drug addict, drinker. Declan..demented...Nichole...psycho...Deakins, was father figure-ish (also called him Bobby), but now he's gone. Replaced with a man with a chip on his shoulder already about him. Someone who he's going to have to prove himself to and break in again...



And Eames, I think she takes Goren for what he is...an aquired taste...His brilliance amuses her...he's a misunderstood genius, who drew the short straw with love and family, always stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think she respects him and cares for him like a brother, who cant catch a break. She's snarky on the outside but would give you the shirt off her back for family and friends...ie: having a baby for her brother?...sister? I dont remember...



Then theres the whole, what types of people they would go for...Goren is too...sensitive and smart for Eames. I think she might go for the type of guy who, when you run to him with tears in your eyes, he doesnt say "what happened"?...so much as "Who's butt do I have to kick"! kinda guy...



And Goren, being sensitive, strikes me as the "hero" type...wants to rescue the damsel in distress...likes the vunerable women who "need" him. Wants to take care of them, care for them...ie: Neldas and Nicholes...the victim in him is attracted to the victim in them...just wants to make it all better.



Its his nature to coddle....to give bear hugs, soft kisses, worship and romance....You know he's a snuggler! Whereas Eames, seems the type..(to me)...as he lays there sleeping softly...she'd be restless and wanting to go home to sleep in her own bed...more of a casual thing.



I picture them in high school...I can see Eames as the well grounded popular sort..probably hung out with a few girls and more boys. Because of her family values, she may have stood up for the underdog. Got along with teachers well, accepted authority. She's open and trusting. My guess is she's had more relationships then dates.



Whereas Goren...Quiet, shy, natural instinct is to distrust, hes reserved, secretive, knows everybody, everyone knows him...lots of buddies, but very few "good friends". Got along swimmingly with students, but questioned teachers and challanged authority. I think he gets bored too easily with women...they dont seem to hold his attention too long. (unless theres drama).



I think they compliment each other well...as partners.



Or.



I could be totally wrong and I'm about to walk the plank!

OMG - I'm snorting Dr. Pepper out my nose at the marshmallow pirates!! Love them... And can I add that I don't think you need to walk the plank. You have reiterated (but have stated them much better than I ever could) things that I have said in the past. It's all in the way one sees the relationship, and I admit the shippers have a valid argument/point of view, but it's not one that I lean towards (obviously).

FINALLY! The Teenager is at school, #2 Son is at work, I have the house, the TV, and the computer ALL to myself.

Good points, Kayne! And I see G/E pretty much the way you described them. I won't go so far as to say they could never be interested in one another because they aren't one another's types...as someone (a shipper) pointed out somewhere; when it comes to love, types go out the door. So they could be interested romantically....I just don't believe they are. Oh, and on the issue of whether Bobby noticed Peter's interest in Eames...I agree he probably did notice, I just meant that I didn't see him react to it or give any indication that he noticed.

First of all, I'll tackle the "staring at Alex's desk" shot. Tigger makes this point (I hope it's Tigger...I'm getting confused with all the posts!): Parallel direction means that the same emotion is meant to be carried through to the mirroring scene. Therefore Bobby's mood in FPS = Bobby's mood in Silencer = Alex's mood in Purgatory = yearning (which is the mood exhibited the first time the mirrored scene was shot). The direction proves these 2 feel the same way about each other.

I agree that the direction proves they feel the same way in these scenes, but is it about their feelings for each other? If we include the F.P.S. scene (well, even if we don't), I have to conclude it's NOT about their feelings for one another. In F.P.S. Bobby is upset...but why? Because he yearns for Eames? Maybe. But what he is most upset about is that the gamer "got him", just as he was upset that Nicole "got him" in A Person of Interest. Notice in that one, he is frustrated and punches the bulletin board where he just pinned Croyden's "suicide note". In F.P.S. he throws a wad of paper at Eames' empty chair. Both are gestures of frustration and anger...with himself. He fell for Nicole's trick and went after Croyden, he fell for Neil's trick and went after...whatever his name was, the "bad father". Yes, he says that Eames would have seen it (and how could he expect Bishop to make the connection?), but his biggest frustration is that HE didn't see it, either time. Was he "yearning" for Eames? Yes...he was yearning for his partner. Just as Neil's yearning for his partner was about "the job" (or the game), Bobby's yearning for Eames was about "the job". Eames said in Silver Lining that her partner, "just wants to be left alone to do what he does best...catch the bad guys." Eames' partnership became a a part of "what he does best" and he was a bit off kilter with a new partner who didn't "get" him (although they still solved the crimes). As for yearning for her romantically...well, I know it sounds like a broken record, but I don't see it.

If his mood in FPS was frustration with himself (and I know I just lost all the shippers here...feel free to scroll to the next post ), I certainly see the Silencer scene as a mirror of that. As Judy said, he's frustrated at having to let someone else lead...especially Peter. Not because Peter is obviously interested in Eames, but because Peter has an obvious bias as far as suspecting a deaf person could be the murderer. Ooh, ooh! I just saw another mirror here that I hadn't thought of before. Peter's reluctance to suspect a deaf person, his statement that "I'm more comfortable translating for the deaf community than interrogating it". That mirrors Bobby's reluctance to interrogate Declan Gage and Jo Gage in Blind Spot. He doesn't want to suspect them, he doesn't want to try to get a confession...but he does it because that's "what he does best...catch the bad guys." Peter didn't want to interrogate deaf people, but he did it anyway because that's his job. He finally agreed to "eavesdrop" at the skating rink because he was swayed by Bobby's logic, but refused to "eavesdrop" on the suspect and his lawyer because that crossed a line. In the end, he was a part of the interrogation that elicited the confession. Those looks Bobby was giving Peter outside Strauss' office were not just frustration at his obvious bias, it was recognition that he understood Peter's bias AND...that final shot at the end in the interrogation room with Bobby sitting next to Peter, and Alex just barely seen in the mirror. The interrogation was over, Bobby could have left...they all could have. But Bobby sat down next to Peter, who was staring...at something off camera, maybe the picture of Tommy and his sister? Makes sense...Tommy's hearing sister chose to leave the deaf community. Peter would certainly understand her feelings as a hearing person in a deaf community. She left, Peter stayed and tried to bridge his two worlds. And Bobby sits down next to him....showing compassion for Peter's conflict in interrogating someone he really does not want to be guilty...something Bobby understands all too well. Or Peter could be staring off into space, but I stand by Bobby's show of compassion and understanding by staying there and sitting next to him.

Sorry...got sidetracked there. Back to the empty desk. Bobby's mood was certainly frustration...with himself. He always makes it a point when using an interpreter for languages he has a knowledge of to insert his own comments in that language. But for sign language he was feeling particularly inadequate...not something Bobby likes much. In the final scene, he just can't stand it anymore and begins signing himself. And even then, he reaches a point where he doesn't quite have the vocabulary to finish and needs Peter's help. Was he yearning for his partner? Sure...He left them alone at the skating rink, telling Peter to make sure Tommy and Malia knew that they were looking for Larry...and Alex stayed with Peter. I'm going to have to think about why she stayed there...I haven't really considered that before. Peter certainly didn't need her presence to pass a message on to Tommy and Malia. But then, when they returned to the squad room they had gotten a message to and from Larry.

Bobby's hand over his mouth is a tell...I agree. But a tell for what? Yes, he does it when he's distressed (when he sees Frank's body in Frame, when he sees Croyden's body in A Person of Interest). But he also does it when he is perplexed. I just saw him do it in The Gift after he and Carver talk to a prisoner, and I know I've seen him do it other times...I just don't have those moments at the tip of my fingers. So is he distressed and yearning for Eames romantically, or is he perplexed and frustrated by his own limitations in this particular case? Since I agree this is a parallel of the scene in FPS and I believe that scene is about his frustration over his own limitations...that's what I have to go with here, too.

Finally the desk scene in Purgatory. ABSOLUTELY a parallel of those first two scenes! Is Eames yearning for her partner romantically? Well, we know that he stopped returning her calls once he went undercover, but we have no reason to believe he had been avoiding her calls for the entire 5 months. If he had, she would have mentioned more than 2 calls that he hadn't returned. And she seemed knowledgeable about him being in "limbo" when she was explaining Bobby's situation to Daniels. So it seems clear to me that they were talking during his suspension. And if they had been romantically involved there was no reason she couldn't see him away from work. If her staring at his desk is a parallel to FPS and Silencer, why was she frustrated with herself? Maybe because she felt she should have done more to prevent him from going to Tates. We always play the "what if" game and I think Eames played it a lot during Bobby's suspension. "What if I had refused to go along?" "What if I had told the captain what he was planning?" Maybe if she had made different choices, they could have come up with a better plan to help Donny and Bobby wouldn't still be suspended. Was she yearning for her partner? Of course. It's clear in her expression that she feels alone there at that desk. When Ross says she will be working with Daniels, she makes a point of it being "until Goren comes back". When Stoat "violates" her partner's desk by planting his feet on it, she orders him to remove them. Yes, Eames likes being partnered with Bobby and misses the partnership. But is she yearning for him romantically? I don't see it.

I know I'm forgetting something, but this is all I've got for now on Silencer.

Alex and Bobby have been work partners a long time,and the mesh well in this funny strange way.Well Alex from time to time love to be unfear to Bobby,which I don't like too much;try her b**h little hidden snappings,I guess she like to remind and prove Bobby she is the senior partner,and has more years in the work force.She does that,beacuze she knows she can get away with it,with Bobby..but she knows if it was a tipical macho brutt cop,Eames couldn't get away with that b**h hidden snaps stuff..becauze other partnes would swear and raise a macho fit,or try not to slap or push her.They are deep connetced from all that time working,and they must,beauze it saves there lifes as cop.They relly on each other a lot,even Eames had hard time to agast to Bobby's way..and now she can't function without him.Eames blames still Bobby in some ways she didn't progress as a cop,but she feels she can't leave Bobby,to get a another partner,becauze Bobby is unic,and can't easy adapt ot a new partner and the new partner to him.Eames is jealous when other connect to Bobby,but dosen't show it,she dosen't like Bobby to know,even he wouldn't never use it to make fun of her.She comes along as-:I don't need Bobby,I just carry his water most of the times,and he hold me down,not to go forward as a cop..but Eames means-:Bobby is unic..I 'hate" that that quricky smart man,is not macnho and respect me,even I'm a b**ch time to time to him..Bobby dosen't deserve that,well to that lenght..but I need Bobby even I know it not his faulth,I'm still a detective..I can't let go,even I want to..I don't know how to contine..still thinking it.
Bobby is very cool to Eames even she is not always to fair to him,he dosen't even snap alittle or raise his voice a little to her,even she deserves to when she is beeing to unfair or bea**y!!Bobby looks at as her equal partner,defendes as a woman,even she almoust always can handle it..but Bobby is a gentlment.He is just use to Eames,she is his in some ways younger sister in Bobbys' eyes..and they know each other very wellafter such a long time.He feel out of balance when someone get too chumy to Eames..Bobby fears she will leave him or don't pay attencion naf to him..or think she better of without him.Bobby feel and knows Eames knows him very well,and get him..well in her own way,and knows he is a "recaqerd taste".He is not a tipical macno brutt detective,so he is much softer to Eames,beacuze she is a woman and they are frineds and partners in the job.Bobby is just a nice,quet,brave,cool smooth,funny very smart detective,why respect Eames..even sometimes to protect her,he pisses or get her angry..and still he is very guilty sadly shy about it,even Eames take out on him ussualy too much.
That dosen't mean they love each other..Eames didn't forgive Bobby some stuff,and is not gentler on other stuff to Bobby,she would be if she had love feeilngs.Especial about her hubby epi..it very clear there,she hasn't moved on;and when that cute and nice deaf translation guy flirted openly with her.Eames was so cold to that guy,she didn't gave in,even a lttle.

Everybody brought up interesting points here
But there are a few things that I really thought I should give my opinion on.

The Eames or Alex or Alexandra/Bobby or Goren thing.
Well, first off Eames always calls Goren 'Bobby' (expect in "Badge" (twice), where they were playing Terry Randolph...). Not saying there's anything shippy there though... Deakins did call her 'Alex' before and he did call refer to Goren as 'Bobby' (but only once I think). And well, we know for Bobby... Speaking about that, after 9 years together he still calls her 'Eames' (which I find funny, cute and a bit pathetic), expect in 'Amends'; a pretty vulnerable moment. I take it that he wants to keep things professional or he likes the sound of that name better
And yes, indeed Peter just met Eames; he calls her 'Alexandra'. However Mulrooney did call her 'Alexandra' too and Eames and him almost went there. I'm not saying this means anything (I frankly don't know what to think of this name thing), just felt like pointing it out.
This reminds me that Bobby told Nelda she could call him 'Robert'. It's true they just met each other, jumping already to the nickname would be, let's say... skipping a step
And when Bobby introduces himself he will say 'Robert Goren' or 'Goren'. But to kids, he will say 'Bobby Goren' or 'Bobby'... Probably because it sounds more kid friendly, like to put them more at ease.

I understand when some of us say that B/A are BFFs or close friends but I frankly don't see the brother and sister label. Well, I have brothers and Goren and Eames differently don't interact on that angle. These two are too up tight towards each other (ok, maybe that's not the right word). Like they have this respect or sort of lack of ease that brothers and sisters certainly don't have... Hope I'm making sense. I'm not that good at voicing out my thoughts.

When it comes to Eames and Joe, I think that she did move on but her wounds were re-opened in "Amends"...

Thank you for bringing up Joe! That's what I was forgetting in my...dissertation.

But first the name thing. I don't know that it means anything that Peter calls her Alexandra. Are their names on their badges, or just the badge number? And have we ever seen what her name is on her ID badge at 1 PP? I don't think I've ever heard her introduce herself as anything but Alex Eames. I just always thought when Peter called her Alexandra, it was sort of sweet and intimate. Of course, when Mulrooney calls her that, it's creepy and intimate.

Now back to the scene in the cafeteria, and Ross' comment about Peter. This is after TWAH, where Ross found out that Eames is a widow. And he sees this "decent guy" who has an obvious interest in her, sees them having coffee together, and throws in his 2 cents. I don't think Ross is deliberately trying to split G/E apart....if I don't think there's any romance between them, I don't think Ross does either. I'm not sure about Eames' reaction to Ross' comment. I used to think she was interested in Peter and the comment was one of those reinforcing moments we all look for when we have a crush on someone. But I'm not so sure now. She certainly noticed Peter's interest from the very first scene, and took a second look at him. And I want her to be interested...just because I want them all to find true love. But after watching it over and over the last two days, I'm not so sure. And having remembered that she had revealed in TWAH that she was a widow, now I think her expression at the skating rink, after Peter's talk about "the cocoon" is her thinking about Joe and the "cocoon" they had. But I don't have ANY evidence to support that, just my own thoughts.

I know I'm gonna catch a whippin' for saying this. But BogoalexeaI think this "uptight-ness" you speak off, is called sexual tension. It explains the respect, but lack of ease thing. But I do understand why some folks don't see it this way. As a shipper I feel the tension is subtle (thanks to the brilliant acting of KE and VDO). Open to interpretation, as are a lot of G/E's interactions.

Morning/afternoon, y'all!

More from me (sorry!) re: Silencer. ciaddict, I appreciate your explanation of the empty chair scene parallels in FPS/Silencer/Purgatory. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your POV , you have confirmed my theory that these scenes are indeed about both Bobby and Alex, and not about frustration/anger that is self-directed.

The first reason I say this comes from the angle at which the scenes are shot. The empty chair is front and center--the focal point of the scene. There are many ways this scene could have been shot (and we know they can film the scene from multiple angles) to emphasize something other than the empty chair. Were we meant to focus on Bobby's frustration in his inability to quickly solve the case, the frustration could be conveyed, say, by shooting over his shoulder, at 7 o'clock, which would also reveal the same hand-up-to-his-mouth gesture, as would shooting from 1 o'clock or 3 o'clock or 10 o'clock but not at desk eye-level and not including the chair at all. That way, the entire focus would be on Bobby. But for the shot to convey the intended meaning, the empty chair needed to be included, which is why this angle was chosen. The emphasis then becomes Bobby without Alex (or Alex without Bobby in Purgatory). Note also that the scene is shot from the partner's (chair's) POV--therefore, it ain't about Bobby alone, it's about Alex (in relationship to Bobby), and in the "emptiness" he feels without her.

Secondly, and more significantly, the main case plot in each of these 3 episodes is about partners. FPS concerns the gaming/business partner, Silencer concerns the Tommy/Malia couple abandonment issue, and Purgatory's plot revolves around Bobby temporarily "partnering" with Stoat. The partner-centric aspects of the episodes necessarily cause us to reflect on Bobby and Alex's partnership and relationship--after all, despite changing scenarios week to week (called "cases"), the series is really just all about them, imo. The cases are of course a way to keep us entertained, but are also the means to develop the characters and reveal aspects about them so we become attached and vested in them. That's the case in every good play. And we've definitely become invested in them--see exhibit A = this LOCI board! And the story of Bobby necessarily involves the story of Alex and vice versa. They're a couple (and you can read that platonically or romantically, however you wish ), and they're so intertwined that we can't separate the 2. So, it's not about Bobby himself, nor Alex herself, it's about them.

Back to Silencer--I disagree that Peter has taken the lead on this case. Alex is leading the investigation. She's actually the focal person in the whole episode. We know this from the multiple (significantly more than usual) interactions between her (and her alone) and Ross. Ross represents the brass, who is well aware of the chain of command. He's going to talk to the one in charge, because that's his job as the one ultimately in charge of the case. Yes, she's the senior partner, so that's typical. But given the extra "just-Ross-and-Alex" dialogues, it emphasizes that Alex is in control. This also reinforces the subplot of the ep--it is Alex's choice, re: Bobby vs. Peter. Alex can stay or go, Alex has alternatives, but she stays with our man Bobby (Everybody say yay yay yay!! ) Shippers, we also say awwww!

As an aside, Alex stays at the ice rink with Peter out of necessity. Since this case is Alex and Bobby's, Peter can't just stay alone. Bobby is ticked off, so it makes sense for him to be the one to call the DA and bug out of there in a huff. That leaves Alex to wait to break the news to Tommy and Malia. Again, Alex could have left if Peter were the one running the investigation, even implicitly or informally, but he's not, so she stays. And of course Peter has to stay so he can communicate with the deaf couple for Alex.

I'm also gonna disagree with you regarding Bobby being reluctant to suspect Declan in Blind Spot. I think the fact that he grabs Declan twice (I think it's twice) demanding "where is she?!" shows that he does suspect Declan. One of the take-homes in Blind Spot is that Bobby cannot detach himself enough to solve the case (as you point out), while Declan is nothing but detached. Declan objectifies Eames, and Declan objectifies Jo. Bobby cannot see Alex as an objective victim--she is his partner, and shippy or not, his other half. We see Declan's detachment and objectification again in Frame where he uses Bobby's brother and Nicole as a means to what he perceives as a good end. That's why Declan's nonchalant objectivity regarding Alex sends Bobby through the roof--Bobby has just the opposite problem of too much emotional investment in her. Kinda shippy, ain't it?

OK--enough from me for now. Hope y'all are well!

I don't see the 'uptightness' as sexual tension at all (are you surprised ), I see it as the growing distance between them because Bobby will not open up to Alex about his family and issues, amongst other things. In Smile, when Alex made her 'too late' comment, it became clear to me that she has realized she has been 'tainted' by her partnership with Bobby, whether it be true or not. I think in some ways the tension is her resentment beginning to show itself. She may not want to advance her career, but she doesn't like being looked at as an outcast by association with the 'whack job' detective. So, the reason she doesn't cut and run or move on to another partner, is because in her mind, Alex feels she can't or won't be accepted elsewhere, so she'll stay where she knows that no matter what, Bobby will accept her as she as (his partner only, ladies) so that they can both continue to do their job and solve crimes. And beneath it all, I think that they do respect each other's investigative styles and know that they work well together. They are a great crime solving team.

As for Blind Spot, Bobby's anger/frustration was two fold, I think. He was furious that he couldn't focus on finding Alex because he felt a tremendous guilt and a huge load of self-doubt. He brought up the possibility that the killer was Sebastian - and in doing so, he felt that it was his fault that Alex was taken. Sebastian, or whomever, was playing head games with Bobby by making it personal. If Alex were to have been killed, Bobby would have had to live with the guilt that, in his mind, he was responsible for his partner's death. AND then, when he began to suspect Declan, it became even more consuming for Bobby - a man that he admired and wanted to be like, the one man he may have looked on as a father-figure, could possibly be the killer. That had to be unfathomable to Bobby. For him to have to face the fact that someone who had accepted him 'as is', unlike his own father, would be unbalanced and a serial killer. We all know how easily Bobby assumes guilt for the actions of others (Frank's, his parents' and now it would be Declan's).

And then there's Frame - Declan dislikes anyone and anything that distracts Bobby from 'the game', as Declan had called it. I think his dislike of Alex stems from the fact that in Blind Spot, Bobby was distracted because he did know the kidnap victim (Alex), but also is becoming so mentally unhinged that he thinks by killing Frank and then Nicole that he can 're-engage' Bobby in the game. I don't think Declan sees a romance between the two partners - until possibly towards the end when he is becoming so disassociated with reality and makes comments simply to elicit a reaction.

As for Frank and Frances both thinking Bobby and Alex are a couple - I'm sorry, but neither of them are the best judge of character. Frank was trying to take the focus off of himself both in Brother's Keeper and Untethered, by focusing it elsewhere and it just happened to be Alex and his inference that there was a relationship. And I just had a thought IF Frank actually believed based on his comments in Brother's Keeper that Bobby and Alex were a 'couple', why would he have used the motel comment in Untethered? He would have thought they were already sleeping together so what was the use of that remark? None, except to get Bobby's focus off Frank (and the crack pipe), because Frank knows how protective Bobby is of women (all women). And Frances' belief that Bobby and Alex were involved was based soley on Frank's comments, because, as we've seen and heard, Frank can do no wrong where their mother is concerned, so if Frank said the sky was pink with white polka dots, Frances would believe it.

I do agree with the comment that maybe saying Bobby & Alex are like brother and sister is reaching - they are partners, work partners who are concerned for the other, but not lovers and not in love. We use the brother/sister dynamic to convey feelings of love without being IN love - like many partnerships before and after. The first partnership that comes to mind is Fin and Munch from SVU - they argue, they disagree and they 'snark' at each other, but you know that deep down, they have a deep concern and respect for each other, but I don't think they're in love.

A few more thoughts to drop down here so bear with me

Silencer (again),
First the 'ice skating place' scene. Well when Peter was talking about that cocoon thing, I always personally thought that when Eames' thoughts drifted away she was thinking about Bobby. Like, he wants to all wrapped up safe inside not shut out... I think she was mostly thinking about his locked up behavior (especially recently, TWAH). And after that whole cocoon scene they show us Bobby. Well, sometimes in CI, the characters talk about somebody and the following scene they show us the person in question. In this case I believe it's Bobby. But after reading all of your theories (shippers/NOROMOs), I have my doubts now... But I still think I might be right about this

Now, the empty chair scene in "Silencer" (here we go again).
I don't believe Bobby passed his hand on his mouth out of perplexity over the case (hope I understood what you were saying ciaddict). Well, why would they zoom out on Eames' chair (like tigger. said) while he's doing that? Zooming out on her chair is empathizing (again tigger.'s words ) on what he's thinking about or what his attention is directed too. They zoomed out on what Bobby's thoughts were. So I still believe that's a sign of anxiety. But whether you think it's shippy or not well that's another question.

Eames stays with Bobby because she thinks she can't or won't be accepted elsewhere? Well, I firmly disagree with this, like ciaddict said they do love being partnered together. Well, isn't "Purgatory" a big enough proof???
I believe her comment in "Smile" was just a warning. She was in other words telling him to watch his moves. Be careful with the guys upstairs, he might be going a little too far. In sort, a friendly warning said in a cold way which can be misleading to us viewers.

Is their 'uptightness' proof of sexual tension. Well, I'm frankly not so sure (even though I'd like to believe so ). I think their lack of ease results from unresolved issues (Vanishing Act).
Because Bobby doesn't open up to her that wouldn't make her resent thier partnership/relationship, I don't think so. It's just really frustrating (well, who wouldn't be???). I mean all these years with a guy, and he seldom says something or two; that is painful. But she is really patient with him and will wait as long as it takes. Will defend him when needed and will always stand by him no matter what happens (well, we've seen that already...). Why would she? Well, because she loves to be partnered with him. She simply loves him (I just made myself feel real shippy,lol)
Whether you want to take this weird devotion as something platonic or shippy, well that's on you!

As for comparing B/A to Fin and Munch, well Goren and Eames definitely don't have the same ease these two display...

I think that the government should fund a HUGE research project on how the exact same scenes can confirm such different beliefs in shippers and NOROMOs.

Ahhh.....I have SO much I want to respond to here...but Icky Work Thing is calling. Can I tell it to bug off?

so, this is a shippy thing only by long-distant extension, so i think it's a safe subject for us all to discuss (unless i'm the only person who's interested!!!!!) really, i'm just wondering and it keeps coming up -
(i mean as in 'alternatives to Bobby' with Peter thing, and the way Ross uses aggressive body stances to put himself between them through season six, and her fierce response to temporary partnership with Daniels, and so on.)

WTF? with Eames' comment at the end of 'Smile'?
she clearly thinks about that interaction a lot, since she parrots Lizard woman's 'water carrier' words to Bobby in 'Purgatory'.

ciaddict - i remember that we agreed about this point at least ... it came out of the blue for us. i've been thinking about it a lot, maybe b/c 'Smile' was the last unseen episode for me? i have questions (we ask questions) and no answers, but ...

what if it wasn't just a "throw away" line?

for a minute, let's pretend that maybe Eames was being groomed for a place higher up in the NYPD, which is something she knows but Bobby doesn't.

the L & O universe is 'based in reality' so even for this fake NYPD, at least having the appearance of being progressive with gender equity is going to be on the official agenda. and maybe we're supposed to 'know' this already, without backstory or explanation. the only female commander i know of is Lieutenant Anita Van Buren. from where does the NYPD select their female commanders?

Ross told Eames she was the best they have - that makes her the 'best of the best', and a legacy cop, too. seems to me like she is a good candidate.

but, there is no way anything like that will happen while she is partnered with the department whack job . . .

does she seem all that concerned about her professional upward mobility? i don't think so. she wants to solve crimes with Bobby Goren.
ahem! (unicorn clears throat) sorry, that's shippy.
as i was saying ... it looks to me like she is pretty devoted to their partnership, hence her response to Ross at the beginning of 'blind spot'.

my eventual thought about it is that it's 'too late' because she made an irrevocable choice, but she doesn't seem to regret it. (well, not often, anyway. and never for very long.)

what do you all think?

this is like reading an entire fanfiction of 28 chapters all at once. Look at these novelettes!
Great stuff here, kudos to everyone!!! I have to agree that it is also interesting how the same scene can be "read" in completely opposite ways, shipper/non shipper... Reading both versions is fascinating. Thanks for sharing

I agree with you unicorn. Can't most of us look back on our lives and think how they would have been different if only we hadn't made a certain decision? It doesn't mean we hate where we are, we just realize that things might have been different but the decision was made and can't be undone so it's too late to worry about it now. People keep saying that she'll be tainted by him but I don't think it's true. She has a good rapport with the Captain, she has shown she can work well with other people (when Bobby was suspended, when she worked with Nichols). They respect her. And yes, it would look good for the NYPD to promote her and I would like for her to eventually get her promotion but then what happens to Bobby . . .


But they used to, right? I don't see tension of any nature in the early seasons.

Ok. No one in my circle of friends and family is into this show, so for the past 8 years I've just watched it and had my own musings, whatever, and that was the end of it. And so, since I've never seen a romantic relationship between them, this whole world of shippers is all new to me, so I'm not trying to offend people here with my questions, I just am seriously trying to understand your view. My questions are:
Do you just HOPE for a relationship or you think they currently ARE in a relationship? Or is it that you see that they both want to be together but aren't acting on it? And if they are in love (but we know they AREN'T, right ?) when did those feelings start? Do you see signs from the beginning or where is your lightbulb moment, when do you say it starts?

Now I understand the basic difference in how shippers and NOROMOs see this show! It's this statement you make, Tigger: "The cases are of course a way to keep us entertained, but are also the means to develop the characters and reveal aspects about them so we become attached and vested in them." I think that because I see this one point differently from you, we will never see any scene the same way. Here's why:

This is a Law and Order show...I don't see the cases as being a means of revealing the characters, the cases ARE the show. During Rene Balcer's reign (which includes season 3 and FPS), personal information was doled out bit by bit and only as a way of revealing information about the case. We hear that Bobby is good at talking to a schizophrenic because "he's had a lot of practice" (although I don't believe we found out that his mother had that diagnosis until the second season). We find out that his mother is on Medicaid because he knows about "spending down" income in order to qualify. We find out that Eames father was a cop who was caught "double dipping". We find out that Bobby knows how a manic-depressive or a schizophrenic would express themselves in art. We find out Bobby's father was a gambler because he wants information from one of his father's buddies. We find out that Bobby wasn't aware of how lonely his father's life was until he cleaned out his apartment after his death. All of that information was given to us to explain why they understand certain aspects of a case. Nicole was a great tool for giving us personal information about Bobby....but even so, it was used to reveal information about Nicole....it's always about the case. In Semi-Detached...did anyone think that Nelda gave Bobby new information that he didn't already know about medications for schizophrenia and even about support groups? With all we know about Robert Goren, no one can convince me that he didn't already know more about those drugs than Nelda did...and about support groups, whether or not he ever felt the need to seek them out.

Kathryn Erbe said in an interview that she had "reminded" someone...and I think it must have been Warren Leight....that Eames is a widow. Now, Rene Balcer wrote those back stories, so that is something he knew all along about Eames. Why was it never mentioned? I would think Stray would have been a perfect opportunity...it's an episode that begins with the murder of two undercover detectives making a buy of illegal guns. Eames' husband was murdered during an undercover buy of drugs. Yet it's never mentioned...why? My only conclusion is that Balcer never had a case (not even Stray) where he felt that information was needed in order to move the investigation along.

The only personal story I can think of during the Balcer years that had nothing to do with moving the case or the investigation along was Deakins' problems with IAB in the last few episodes of season 5. And I see that as Balcer's way of giving Deakins a send-off rather than just "surprise, he's gone!" Even in ITWSH, the information we got about Eames writing that letter...it was still case-related. Just as the "dirt" the judge dug up on Logan and tried to dig up on Barek, this information about Eames' letter was not about revealing to us the audience that G/E are in love...it was about discrediting Goren by bringing up his personal issues.

Things shifted in season 6 and 7. Now there are some disgruntled fans who believe they shifted because VDO had put on weight and couldn't move the way he used to, so they incorporated all this personal drama into the show to explain it away. That seems...well, let's just say I don't buy it. VDO said in an interview that he wanted the "deconstruction" of Robert Goren. Well, Warren Leight gave us that. The lines about personal stories and cases became fuzzy and more intertwined than ever before (such as with Blind Spot and Endgame). But for the most part, I still believe that the cases were and are the main stories.

So I don’t think you and I will ever look at an episode or a scene in the same way, Tigger. You are looking (forgive me if I’m understanding you wrong) for what the case and the scene reveals about the personal lives of G/E. I am looking at what their personal information reveals about a case or a scene.

And I have a BUNCH more to say about the parallels between FPS, Silencer, and Purgatory….but I think you guys are all nodding off, so I’ll save it for another time.

Good morning friends... shippers and noromos alike.

Who am I kidding? It's not really that good of a morning

Anyway, I'm here to stand with all my fellow LOCI fans to hope and pray for a decent, classy and respectable exit for our two favorite characters. I know we all don't agree on the level of love these two feel for each other. But I bet we can agree that we'd like to see Goren and Eames leave(if they must ) together....alive, and happy, with some small acknowledgement of the decade they've spent sticking by each others sides, through thick and thin.

I wonder how you can take the words in MY head and make more sense with them than I can! I think I've said the same things but never as perfectly as you have here. Thanks, ciaddict.



I agree - sadly, my first fear when I read that "VDO may have a recurring role", with no mention of Erbe is that the writers will take us down a road none of us wants to see, the death of one partner. I'm hoping my 'gut feeling' is wrong. I, too, want a substantial closing storyline for Goren and Eames. Now, I do not want to seem them married (to each other anyway), but would like to know that they are moving on to something better for both of them. I'm ferverently praying that the writers don't destroy the two characters that ARE LOCI.

Well, the shippers and noromos can agree on that. But I did cut the "not married to each other" part out

God, they've been through so much crap together--do you think anyone could deal with a tragic ending? All this garbage, Bobby constantly battling his demons, and then he's, for all intents and purposes, destroyed by them or by some other evil? Lord have mercy, I sure as hell hope not. My belief, still, is that this is a story with a happy ending for these two especially because of Eames. No matter how much garbage you get, you can get through it with the one you love (platonic or otherwise). If they are not being renewed on the show due to money, at least we can get a happy ending to the plot.

Goren and Eames have to be together. It's the only reasonably plausible plot. We saw it in Major Case and Revolution--ALL of us, shippers and noromos, kept asking "Where's Bobby?". They are two sides of the same coin. They are entwined together in a bond that cannot be broken. My gut tells me they will necessarily leave together--say Bobby voluntarily leaves, so Eames does too. She will follow him. She's never left him--is she gonna let him go now?

As a shipper, I will take a slightly-more-than-subtle hint that they are coupled up, that you noromos would be OK with as well. Something like "My place for dinner tonight?", which would imply this is both a regular occurrence, and they are frequently together outside work. Then the noromos could make of it what they will, but the shippers will get another major tell. Of course, if the writers give us more than that, that would be simply delicious for the shippers, but for today, let's just all hope, on both sides, that they will never be parted by death or tragedy.

I do have shipper TipSea stuff to write, but right now I can't see out of my eyes nor think straight, so I'll have to postpone that.

HUGS to you all.