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awnm
Click here for Variety article.

From the article:

But Wachtel and McNamara said the show will probably add a few new characters to the mix as viewers get to know more of McCormack's backstory and more of the other marshals in the office.


I'm glad to see this part. I really hope to learn more about Marshall and Stan.
Kelwarrior
Good article...sounds promising and not as though the whole scope of the show is going to change.
Did anyone watch the show "Profit" in the 90's? It was good!
Basia77
QUOTE (awnm @ Sep 18 2009, 05:44 AM) *
Click here for Variety article.

From the article:

But Wachtel and McNamara said the show will probably add a few new characters to the mix as viewers get to know more of McCormack's backstory and more of the other marshals in the office.


I'm glad to see this part. I really hope to learn more about Marshall and Stan.


I really hope that means more on Marshall and Stan too, though it's kinda hard to figure out exactly in that sentence. It almost sounds like they are adding more marshals. But people have been asking for more on Marshall and Stan for a long time now, so I hope that's what we're getting.

This is definitely an interesting choice. People and critics still talk about how great "Profit" was (I was just reading some "Top 25" list on EW.com the other day and "Profit" was mentioned). And since we will be learning more about Mary's background, then that means they won't be dropping the family stuff/personal stuff entirely.
KellyK
QUOTE (awnm @ Sep 18 2009, 07:44 AM) *
Click here for Variety article.

From the article:

But Wachtel and McNamara said the show will probably add a few new characters to the mix as viewers get to know more of McCormack's backstory and more of the other marshals in the office.


I'm glad to see this part. I really hope to learn more about Marshall and Stan.


Thank you very much for the post awnm! Now I'm gonna do some research. I have heard of John McNamara before but I'm not real familiar with his work so I'm going to take a look and see what I can find. I appreciate the info! Have a great day all.
Summer_Fun
Well, he sounds interesting. The article talked about his ability to maintain "narrative drive" whatever that may be -- it seems to be Wachtel's key issue with the show. Hopefully that means we'll see a bit more substance than we have so far, along with a personality overhaul for Mary.

I was particularly pleased to see mention of plans to use the Albuquerque landscape more. It's such an unusual city, and we deserve to see more of what it's all about. You'd never know there's a rich Native American culture there from what we see right now.

ETA: I found this in a blog. I think what it's saying is that narrative drive basically demands that everything in a story has a purpose that will move the plot forward. I'll be interested in what others think, particularly in terms of what this might mean for Brandi:

Narrative drive is story force. If you’re in what you believe to be your final revision, before sending your manuscript to an agent or editor, you must take accountability for every sentence, every word. When you come upon dialogue that says nothing, cut it. When you read scenes that do nothing to move the story forward, sorry, they must go. Glorious phrases that don’t tell the reader something worth carrying—kill those little darlings. When you revise with narrative drive in mind, you will eventually get to the heart of your story. After this humbling experience of accountable revision, you may have to go back to the drawing board to add scenes rich in conflict, loaded with compelling details. Now is the time to rework the piece with the goal of asking your readers to care, inviting them to embrace what you're asking them to hold.
Basia77
Thanks for the info on narrative drive.

I think IPS did have a tendency to sort of meander a bit, with Brandi's storylines being a pretty glaring example of that. She's gone back to school, but for what? Do we even know what her major is? She goes through the whole "pretends to be Jinx and then learns a life lesson about how important AA is" thing and meets Peter, but she's still basically the same person who lazes about the house and reads magazines instead of helping Raph move. She saves a homeless person, only for it to never be mentioned again and apparently not have any long-lasting effect on her. Brandi could definitely use some narrative drive. Jinx suffered from the same problem (got a part in the musical, then we never hear about it again. Went to AA then kinda disappeared. Was obsessed with Mary's father's letters and tracking him down, but that urge seemed to leave with Lauren), but with Jinx I kinda suspect that she went AWOL because the network demanded it.

Mary's story kinda meandered too. The second third of the season seemed to concentrate on her father, then...nothing. I'm sure the intention was to pick it up next season, but was just kinda weird that so much time was spent on it, then it was just put back up on the shelf without anything really resolved. Then the engagement took up the last third of the season when that wasn't really developed (Raph was barely in this season up until the engagement). It felt like the writers kinda said "Okay, now let's have this happen!" with little to no build up and then it would be dropped or shelved as soon as they came up with a new idea. I can see why the network felt there was a lack of narrative drive. A lot happened that seemed to go nowhere.

I am also happy that they will be using more of the Albuquerque/New Mexico landscape. They did a great job of shooting in local restaurants, etc. last season, but there is certainly more they could use. I think some of the best episodes happened when they were out and about. And it would be nice for them to touch on the Native American culture again. Outside of Brandi's homeless guy, they haven't really touched on that since the pilot.
leighann1001
QUOTE (Basia77 @ Sep 19 2009, 01:32 AM) *
Thanks for the info on narrative drive.

I think IPS did have a tendency to sort of meander a bit, with Brandi's storylines being a pretty glaring example of that. She's gone back to school, but for what? Do we even know what her major is? She goes through the whole "pretends to be Jinx and then learns a life lesson about how important AA is" thing and meets Peter, but she's still basically the same person who lazes about the house and reads magazines instead of helping Raph move. She saves a homeless person, only for it to never be mentioned again and apparently not have any long-lasting effect on her. Brandi could definitely use some narrative drive. Jinx suffered from the same problem (got a part in the musical, then we never hear about it again. Went to AA then kinda disappeared. Was obsessed with Mary's father's letters and tracking him down, but that urge seemed to leave with Lauren), but with Jinx I kinda suspect that she went AWOL because the network demanded it.

Mary's story kinda meandered too. The second third of the season seemed to concentrate on her father, then...nothing. I'm sure the intention was to pick it up next season, but was just kinda weird that so much time was spent on it, then it was just put back up on the shelf without anything really resolved. Then the engagement took up the last third of the season when that wasn't really developed (Raph was barely in this season up until the engagement). It felt like the writers kinda said "Okay, now let's have this happen!" with little to no build up and then it would be dropped or shelved as soon as they came up with a new idea. I can see why the network felt there was a lack of narrative drive. A lot happened that seemed to go nowhere.

I am also happy that they will be using more of the Albuquerque/New Mexico landscape. They did a great job of shooting in local restaurants, etc. last season, but there is certainly more they could use. I think some of the best episodes happened when they were out and about. And it would be nice for them to touch on the Native American culture again. Outside of Brandi's homeless guy, they haven't really touched on that since the pilot.


The bit about the bug kind of bothered me. They never did resolve that. I doubt it was her dad. My guess is Jinx lost the part in the play after she didn't show up, got drunk, arrested and sent to rehab. I guess she isn't doing anything since she got out of rehab. She needs a job and an apartment. Brandi needs to either live with Jinx or Peter.
Summer_Fun
Somewhere along the line, Maples totally lost the plot, literally. He was clearly headed for a reappearance of Mary's father, then dropped it. And he remade the opener. One doesn't have to be a genius to read between the lines in the press releases regarding his departure and figure out that whatever story he was developing, USA didn't like it. He seemed to want to go very dark and leave a trail of emotional wreckage USA clearly wasn't keen to have. I guess when he couldn't do the story his way, he chose not to do it at all. After that, the main plot just seemed adrift.

Brandi has rarely seemed anchored to the main plot line. She could walk out tomorrow, and it would have no material effect on the show. Like her or not (and I generally do) that can't be denied. Jinx at least brings a little history with Mary to the story, by Brandi is filler, and has far too much story for so pointless a character.
leighann1001
QUOTE (Summer_Fun @ Sep 19 2009, 03:31 PM) *
Somewhere along the line, Maples totally lost the plot, literally. He was clearly headed for a reappearance of Mary's father, then dropped it. And he remade the opener. One doesn't have to be a genius to read between the lines in the press releases regarding his departure and figure out that whatever story he was developing, USA didn't like it. He seemed to want to go very dark and leave a trail of emotional wreckage USA clearly wasn't keen to have. I guess when he couldn't do the story his way, he chose not to do it at all. After that, the main plot just seemed adrift.

Brandi has rarely seemed anchored to the main plot line. She could walk out tomorrow, and it would have no material effect on the show. Like her or not (and I generally do) that can't be denied. Jinx at least brings a little history with Mary to the story, by Brandi is filler, and has far too much story for so pointless a character.


He really did. The story with Lauren would have been a really good one. I can see Mary's dad getting his life back on track (gambling-wise), figuring his family didn't want anything to do with him and deciding to just start over again. It makes him a bigamist, being married to Lauren's mom, but it's plausible and would have been really interesting. Then, it was like it never happened. Brandi is staying on as a regular character (unless they're writing her out entirely), so maybe they have plans for her. I hope so.
Basia77
Interesting -- it seems USA is overhauling both their Sunday night shows. Over on Criminal Intent, just about everyone is leaving except for Jeff Goldblum, and he will move to the center of the show, thereby making it a bit more "quirky" than heavy since Goldblum is kinda quirky by nature. I guess they really don't like the dark stuff.

Since announcing McNamara I've got back and watched some old "Profit" episodes, and they certainly have someone who is good at the ol' narrative drive. Everything on that show had a purpose, and the "mysteries" of how Profit defeats everyone were pretty well-written (while I feel a lot of the witness stuff or the crimes Mary and Marshall solves could be a bit convoluted or messy).

I suppose a lot still depends on what the network wants from the show. I hope they don't go too light - this ain't "Monk" - these actors do drama well and the whole WitSec premise seems prime for some interesting drama.
Summer_Fun
I've been trying to lay my hands on those episodes of Profit, but no joy as yet. I think that's been the problem with Maples: too much of what he does is pointless and directionless, or at least seems that way. When you compare that to the tighter plotting of a good season of 24 or a show like Leverage, where everything that happens has a point and a purpose, the problem is readily apparent. This show could be a whole lot better were someone to tighten it up and rework a couple characters.
awnm
QUOTE (Summer_Fun @ Sep 26 2009, 06:59 PM) *
I've been trying to lay my hands on those episodes of Profit, but no joy as yet. I think that's been the problem with Maples: too much of what he does is pointless and directionless, or at least seems that way. When you compare that to the tighter plotting of a good season of 24 or a show like Leverage, where everything that happens has a point and a purpose, the problem is readily apparent. This show could be a whole lot better were someone to tighten it up and rework a couple characters.

I sometimes wonder if we had seen episode 16 if the rest of the season would have been more in context. Like maybe some of the random plot threads used might have been woven into the story as they search for the shooter and she begins to recover.

Maybe it seems directionless because we didn't see the whole story. Hmmm. Guess we'll find out in the spring.

Oh, and Profit is available on Netflix.
Basia77
QUOTE (awnm @ Sep 26 2009, 06:29 PM) *
I sometimes wonder if we had seen episode 16 if the rest of the season would have been more in context. Like maybe some of the random plot threads used might have been woven into the story as they search for the shooter and she begins to recover.

Maybe it seems directionless because we didn't see the whole story. Hmmm. Guess we'll find out in the spring.

Oh, and Profit is available on Netflix.


I'm sure the 16th episode would have addressed the cliffhangers from the previous episode - Mary recovering, finding the shooter, maybe even some changes to the relationships in Mary's life (I still suspect - or at least hope - that we'll still see that episode or at least some version of it next season because it left so many threads dangling. I think it will be the season opener then they'll pull a "flash forward" and by the second episode Mary will be recovered and back at work). But there are some overall issues that couldn't be resolved in that one episode - Brandi's pointless storylines, Jinx's storylines that suddenly end/disappear with no explanation, Mary's father, etc.

I know a lot of this sounds like I didn't like the second season, but I did. Quite a bit. I at least really liked how some characters were developed (specifically Marshall and Stan), Eleanor was a great addition, and it did have some outstanding moments/episodes. And there were some things that Maples battled the network on where I think he was right -- like the witness dying at the end of "Duplicate Bridge." The network really wanted Mary or Marshall to save him, but I thought the episode was much better with them failing. They aren't superheroes, and some things should be out of their control.

And I do wonder how much of the unevenness of the season was due to the push and pull between Maples and the network. I know they had to scrap the script for their season opener and I'm sure it was a bit of a scramble to come up with something new. And maybe some storylines seemed to peter out because the network nixed what Maples had in mind and he didn't have time to go back and rewrite them. Someone here compared situation to the second season of "Joan of Arcadia" which also kinda fell apart. And there are some similarities in that the show's EP had planned a big crisis of faith for the main character, and the network decided that was too dark, so her first season-ending crisis of faith was sort of glossed over within one episode (in a way that didn't make a whole lot of sense) when they got back. But then the show never really got any traction, wandered around a bit, and didn't seem to pull it back together until the network was hanging the threat of cancellation over their heads and the last few episodes picked up quite a bit (the network pulled the plug anyway). But there were some things that were clearly not the fault of the network. Joan got kinda mean, and kinda dumb - mostly so everything could be explained to her (and the audience) at the end of the episode. While the network may have said "simplify things" I doubt they asked them to make Joan meaner or to make Joan a moron (for example - a kid who in the first season had her own computer and could do all the things on it a kid in this day and age can do suddenly in the second season didn't own a computer because she "hates" them and couldn't even perform a simple Google search despite the fact she probably had to work with computers all the time in school). Other storylines were executed poorly or driven into the ground in a way that simply can't be blamed on the network. Something similar may have happened on this show. A lot of people were turned off by Mary this season. I still liked her, but her relentless unhappiness seemed a bit much. Nothing good happened to her, nothing made her happy.

Maybe it was just a "sophomore slump" - happens to a lot of shows. And a lot of shows really take off in their third season. I guess we'll never know if that would have happened if Maples were still in charge, and we'll see if the change in direction will be a good thing. I do think they hired a good producer in McNamara. He's got a good track record - a lot of his shows were critical, if not ratings, sucesses. But he's getting a show with a built-in audience, so maybe it's a good place for him. I suppose the real question will be what the network wants, and how well McNamara can craft a good story within the confines of the network's demands (something that Maples apparently couldn't or wouldn't do). Again, I think a "Burn Notice" model would work well on this show, but "Psych" would be too straight-up comedy, and "Monk" and "Royal Pains" are frankly a little too vanilla and tame for this show.
ciaddict
Having rid themselves of 3 major characters on Law and Order Criminal Intent, part of USA's reasoning was that Jeff Goldblum fit the "lighter"tone of USA shows. I hope their plan is not to "lighten" IPS as well. For all the humor that most episodes contain, this is not a "light" drama. I hope that they maintain the integrity of this show.
KellyK
QUOTE (ciaddict @ Oct 3 2009, 08:50 PM) *
Having rid themselves of 3 major characters on Law and Order Criminal Intent, part of USA's reasoning was that Jeff Goldblum fit the "lighter"tone of USA shows. I hope their plan is not to "lighten" IPS as well. For all the humor that most episodes contain, this is not a "light" drama. I hope that they maintain the integrity of this show.

I am interested in what the new season of this show will bring, ciaddict, because they have already gotten rid of the creator of the show, David Maples, and have brought in new writers and mentioned changing the drive of the show along with character changes or reduction of performances. I usually worry when that happens so early in a series. I don't want every show to be "lighter and fluffier!" I enjoy a variety of programs. It's been a sad year for USA programming with many shows - In Plain Sight, Monk, Law & Order: Criminal Intent and I don't what others have been affected. Someone else might.sad.gif
Summer_Fun
They've brought in a new showrunner, not new writers. There's a difference.
ciaddict
QUOTE (Summer_Fun @ Oct 4 2009, 12:29 AM) *
They've brought in a new showrunner, not new writers. There's a difference.


Maybe I'm not understanding these jobs. Isn't the showrunner the head writer? I know that first Rene Balcer and then Warren Leight were the showrunners on LOCI, and they were also the head writers and the ones who decided the direction the stories would take.

I hope that this is a good thing for IPS. I just worry that USA's decision to "lighten up" LOCI means that "light and fluffy" is what they want from all their shows. IPS has done a great job of exploring dark themes, with a healthy dose of humor thrown in. I hope that continues because this is one of the best shows on USA...one of the best shows on TV.
Basia77
QUOTE (ciaddict @ Oct 4 2009, 09:32 AM) *
Maybe I'm not understanding these jobs. Isn't the showrunner the head writer? I know that first Rene Balcer and then Warren Leight were the showrunners on LOCI, and they were also the head writers and the ones who decided the direction the stories would take.

I hope that this is a good thing for IPS. I just worry that USA's decision to "lighten up" LOCI means that "light and fluffy" is what they want from all their shows. IPS has done a great job of exploring dark themes, with a healthy dose of humor thrown in. I hope that continues because this is one of the best shows on USA...one of the best shows on TV.



I don't know if they cleaned out the writer's room as well, but while the EP isn't necessarily a writer, he/she does have control of the direction and tone of the show. Sometimes there's a head writer who also helps shape things, sometimes they are the same person. A lot of times there are two EP - one that is essentially a head writer and shapes the story, and another who oversees all the other aspects of a show's production (the set, location scouting, etc.).

In McNamara's case, he is a writer, and I'm sure we'll see episodes written by him. And if were completely up to him, I really think (judging by some of his past work) he could make IPS awesome. After listening to the commentaries/interviews on the "Profit" DVDs, I like where he's coming from. There he talked about how important it was that the hero doesn't always win, and that it was necessary to allow the antagonists to win on occasion and to make them smart. Otherwise, there's not a whole lot of dramatic tension - you always know that the protagonist is going to defeat everyone, so it's hard to get sucked in, worrying if he's gonna pull it off or not. That sort of recipe doesn't call for a lot of "fluffy."

However, it is USA here we need to worry about, not McNamara. And they want "blue sky." And the fact that they are overhauling CI as well shows that they weren't happy with how "dark" their Sunday nights were, and it wasn't just a problem with IPS. I think it is really going to depend on how much drama and darkness they will allow, and how well McNamara can perform within those limitations. Some writers thrive and get really creative when they are faced with a lot of limitiations. Others don't. We'll see.

USA might allow him some freedom because this isn't a situation where McNamara came to them trying to sell a show. USA has been courting him. For a few years now, it sounds like. And they didn't just hand him IPS, they want him to develop other shows for them. So, it sounds like they might want to keep him happy and might give him a little more wiggle room as a result.
KellyK
QUOTE (Summer_Fun @ Oct 4 2009, 03:29 AM) *
They've brought in a new showrunner, not new writers. There's a difference.

I thought Maples created the idea for the show and wrote for the show as well??? I could be wrong. Sorry if I was mistaken.
TilleyGirl
QUOTE (KellyK @ Oct 4 2009, 04:56 PM) *
I thought Maples created the idea for the show and wrote for the show as well??? I could be wrong. Sorry if I was mistaken.


This is what I've found for writing credits for the show: David Maples (27 episodes), Brynn Malone(4), Jessica Butler (3), Alexander Cary (3), Constance Burge (2), Matt Ward (2), Lynne Litt(2), John Makiewicz (2). So David Maples had a hand in writing every single episode.
Summer_Fun
The showrunner is the executive producer who sets the vision and direction for the show. He/she also heads the writers' room, and often will write individual scripts. So he/she is a bit of both producer and writer. There has yet to be word one written that any of the show's writing team has been replaced, therefore the statement they've "brought in new writers" is inaccurate. Thus my comment.

Television writing is a collaborative process. Writing credits go to the writer who actually produces the script (i.e. writes the dialogue) but the story development, both in terms of the season and in terms of individual episodes, is done by a team. As such, the showrunner, as well as every writer on a show's writing team, will have a hand in producing each episode.

One of the greatest problems with message boards is that speculation runs amok and quickly becomes accepted as truth because people don't question what's written. I prefer to take another approach and to both challenge statements such as the one above, and to question rumors people pass around as truth all too glibly.
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