The Mary and Raph story is clearly a major part of the show right now. In my opinion, Mary and Raph are absolutely wrong for each other. They're both good people, and they both want to make their relationship work, but they're both in love not with each other but with the idea of who they want the other person to be.

Raph, somewhere in the back of his mind, wants a girl--"old-fashioned girl" might be too strong, but something like that--who wants to settle down and build a happy household with him. That's why he pressured her to get married, then moved in and started doing household repairs and making a budget. That's why he's been so excited about getting a steady job. That's why he hates her job so much, because of the danger and uncertainty. And he loves Mary, I'm absolutely sure, but I think he also has this idea that once they're married she'll change, somehow. I think the ultimate example of this is when he bakes the ring into the cupcake. It's adorable, it's old-fashioned, it's sweet, and it's completely not Mary. Doesn't someone in that episode say something along those lines?

On her side of things, Mary knows what Raph wants, I think, and it's not who she wants to be. Her relationship with Raph was purely physical, and she was happy that way, but when he started pressuring her to get married, she started to feel obligated to, somehow--she knows that being in a happy relationship is very healthy, especially given her rocky history on the subject, so she feels like being with Raph is almost a duty for her. But she wants Raph to be someone he isn't: someone who will take their relationship slow, who will leave the house a mess to aid in settling her score with the FBI, someone who shares her fierce moral code. She's been unhappy ever since they got engaged, but her sense of duty won't let her break it off. And Marshall was right, she's intentionally painting herself into a corner to keep herself from breaking the engagement, which is to say that deep down she doesn't want to marry him.

Doesn't their argument about the commercial say it all? She thought it was degrading and she assumed he would feel the same way. He thought it was a good way to help build their happy lives together and he assumed she would feel the same way. We have a very fundamental clash of values here, and the result is they're both often feeling that the other person is letting them down.

Now, that's not to say you have to be with someone who's exactly like you. Opposites can attract, and people's differences can complement each other. The best relationships are ones where your partner helps you grow and become a better person than you are. But I don't feel that's what's happening here. They're not building each other up, they're just trying to force the other person to their own side of things. They're unhappy, arguing constantly, and if they marry they will be more unhappy still.

But I'm fairly sure they won't marry, or if they do something will happen and it'll be annulled quickly. Eventually one of them will come to their senses and realize that they can't marry based on a hope that the other person will change. Raph will find someone new--I don't feel like they're heading toward Brandi--who will be the kind of wife he wants. As for Mary, I do believe she'll be with Marshall at some point, but I think we'll have to wait about six seasons for that.


What do you guys think? If any of you are Mary/Raph shippers, I'd love to hear the other side of the story.

I completely agree with you.

There's nothing really wrong with either of them (well, Mary does have her issues). They are both good people, and it isn't like one should dump the other for being evil or for doing something terrible. They simply don't seem to operate on the same wavelength, and they are almost never on the same page. It just isn't a good match. And on top of that, I really don't think Mary is ready for marriage-level commitment. She's just not ready to share her life like that.

Francesca touched on something when she said that she backed out of a marriage because the guy didn't get her jokes, and when she asked Mary if Raph got her jokes, all Mary could say was "he gets enough of them." That's...really not good enough. And it isn't because Raph isn't funny or because of some sort of language barrier (he and Brandi joke around and "get" the jokes each other just fine). He's simply on a completely different wavelength.

And they are working at such cross-purposes. I do think Raph wants a traditional "old-fashioned" family life and Mary just doesn't fit into that mold. I think she's trying, but it's just not working and that's why she's freaking out over little things that really aren't a big deal. I think Mary is doing this because she thinks she should be into it. It's what "normal" people want and Raph is a great guy. But I really don't think her heart is in it. They just don't have that deep connection, I don't think. Ideally, the person you marry should also be your friend. I just don't get the feeling that they are very good friends. They care about each other, but I'm not sure that's enough.

I agree that Marshall was right in that Mary painted herself into a corner so she would have to make this thing work. I think Mary believes all her discomfort about this is due to her general commitment-phobe nature, so she painted herself into a corner to keep herself from ruining it like she always does. However, I think Mary's gut is complaining about this relationship because deep down it is not the right one for her, and it is not the right time for her.

Are we saying that if Marshall and Mary hook up, the day is never going to come when he wants her to “fry him an egg”?

The thought that comes to my mind when I think about Mary trying to work this out with Raph is - square peg, round hole. Raph, as you mentioned, is looking for the old-fashioned gal to be the mother of his children. We already know how Mary feels about kids (i.e. "What's the deal with babies? I don't get 'em), and old fashioned definitely does not describe her. In short, Raph thinks he can tame her. Yeah, good luck with that.

I think the fundamental difference between Mary's relationship with Raph and her relationship with Marshall (besides sex) is that Marshall is her equal and she views him as such. In every relationship she has, she is the parent and they are the children. She has made them dependent on her and it fits the role she's created for herself. They are people to be mothered, disciplined and fixed. Even Raph, who really hasn't given her any reason (that I can tell) to be treated this way. Now that he's trying to be the man of the house, he's upset the balance of power and Mary will never relinquish it to him without dire consequences down the line.

Marshall, on the other hand, doesn't need to be mothered, disciplined or fixed and probably has never allowed her to treat him that way. It's the one relationship she has where she can be herself without responsibility. Marshall also doesn't try to tame her or change her (maybe corral her from time to time), he accepts her as she is - quirks and all.

My personal opinion is that Raph will break it off, or it will be a mutual decision. He won't be able to accept her dangeous job and will realize that she will never be able to completely offer herself to him. He may have her heart and body, but something (work) and someone (Marshall) else has her soul.

Mary is 180 degrees from both men. The difference is Marshall respects that difference so they complement each other. Raph want to change her and therefore they detract from each other. I'd be very surprised if that ring isn't back in it's box by the 4th episode of next season.

I don't think anyone (or at least I didn't) meant that Raph wants Mary to be the little woman at home and that they have "traditional" roles. If anything, he's shown that he's open to the opposite since we've seen him cook for Mary and do her laundry and I don't think we've seen her do that for him. I just think Raph wants a calm, normal life. With three kids and a dog and everyone is home by six and they all sit down and have dinner together. I think he wants a domestic, cozy existence, and as we saw Mary chafing at all the people in her kitchen in the finale, Mary doesn't do cozy and domestic. She's got a job that requires weird hours, where she could be called into work at 2:00 AM, and she gets to use a gun every now and again (and other people have guns too - sometimes pointed at her). And she loves it. Raph hates it. I think they would always be butting heads over it.



That's a good point. Mary sees Marshall has an equal, probably at least in part because she doesn't have to pick up after him and clean up his messes the way she does with Brandi and Jinx (and to some extend her witnesses). Yet Raph has never caused a disaster that Mary had to clean up either, and yet she still treats him like a child. And that's something that's always kinda bugged me. Mary doesn't seem to have a whole lot of respect for Raph, despite the fact that he hasn't really done anything to prove that he doesn't deserve it. Raph had been pushing back later in the season when she treated him like a five year old, but why does she do it in the first place? How is it the people at work get her respect but the guy she decided to spend the rest of her life with does not?

Mary's mother and sister's neediness is exhibited in their dependence on others. Mary is damaged the same and her neediness is exhibited by her determination to be independent and functioning. Marshall cares for Mary because he see her neediness (or issues, if you will) underlying her outward show of strength. That does not necessarily equal success in a relationship.

Marshall is attracted to needy women. If Marshall and Mary were to have an intimate relationship it would not be long before Mary would realize that about him and resent him. And I really don't see her risking her current friendship with Marshall or her professional status on the job by having a relationship with a co-worker. And I have my doubts about a second annulment.

Being with Raph would be a challenge for Mary but I don't see her shying away from it simply because of that. He constantly challenges her to grow and learn new ideas about relationships, family and life. I see Mary as the type of person that accepts challenges head on. I don't see her taking the easy route here especially if the show is really about Mary's growth in her professional and personal life.

I don't know if I agree with this portion. Mostly because I don't see Mary as needy. If anything, I think Mary has the opposite problem -- she tries to convince herself that she doesn't need anybody and can take care of everything by herself. It's why she pushes Raph away when he tries to step up and help. I think Mary needs to be needed, but I don't think she herself is needy.

And I don't think we've seen a whole lot of evidence that Marshall is attracted to needy women. Most people who are like that like to play hero and like Mary, need to be needed. The two ladies we've seen him attracted to don't really fit the "needy" mold either. His old college TA wasn't needy -- she was a little too aggressive for his tastes and scared him off. And the short-lived thing with Dr. Shelly pretty much ended when she revealed that she was a bit emotionally screwed up and still hung up on her ex. And if Marshall were into needy women, he'd probably be pulled a bit more toward Brandi and Jinx (who are both super-needy) and would do things to support them. As it is, it almost seems at times like he resents them for everything they've put Mary through and in general, he keeps his distance from the family. If you watch any of the scenes where he's in the same room as them, he almost always keeps a significant physical distance from them (like in the waiting room in the hospital. Up until the final scene when he and Stan sat down with the family, Marshall kept himself pretty separate from the family and would sit some distance away).

While Marshall does care about Mary and helps her out, so far I haven't really seen him go above and beyond what a good friend or partner would do. There have been plenty of times when he kept his distance instead of stepping in.I don't think Mary would ever let him coddle her. And I don't think he's attracted to Mary because of her damage, but despite her damage. He's actually given her some advice here and there (that I don't think she's ever followed) that would actually help her work past her issues. I think he wants to see her in a better place (which is why he's commented about how she seems unhappy) and doesn't want to see her stay damaged so he can play hero.

Dang...we should all have guest spots on Dr. Phil!!

I agree with all of the above. Mary is a good person at heart. She wants to do the right thing, and often chases that with blinders on as to who gets squeezed aside or hurt in her pursuit. Marrying Raph is the "right thing" in her mind. But it's as though it's the right recipe or a set of directions. She doesn't understand that it's not a step 1...step 2...step 3 process and that frustrates her. She has a strong, moral code without the empathy that allows her to accept exceptions to the rule. Remember her comment to Francesca ..."In my job, nothing is negotiable"...she doesn't realize she applies that to her life. Now, I'm not saying Mary isn't *sympathetic* to others. She is very much so. Look at how she talks down witnesses and comforts them. She has trouble with *empathy*. It's hard for her to put herself in their shoes (..."What is it about babies? I don't get them"....the "couples in the park" monologue). She sees the world around her and truly struggles to understand why people do what they do, and why they're upset with her. The correct course of action is always very clear to Mary. Maybe it's because she was so emotionally overloaded as a child, she now is a bit numb and relies solely on rational facts to make decisions. Plus, people don't respond correctly, in her mind, to her actions. Why don't they understand her motives? What's wrong with them? Also...she's afraid of the emotions of others. She is very uncomfortable when people get emotional because that makes them unpredictable in her mind. What are they gonna do next...emotions aren't rational. And she knows she will likely respond incorrectly, and she doesn't want to lose that control of the situation.

Now Raph...ah...what a sweetie!! He's a great guy and wants to protect her and care for her. He is very emotional and is very empathetic. Unfortunately, because of Jinx and Brandi being very emotional, Mary equates that with silliness...thus the lack of respect for Raph (who is very bright, but emotional). What Raph doesn't understand about Mary is that she was never (after 7 years old) adored, cherished or cared for. She was always the caregiver who was expected to be rational and in control. So, when someone approaches her in a loving, kind and caring way it just about undoes her. She doesn't know how to react to compassion...she has no learned response to that. She can deal with sex (passion), but not compassion. She wants to, but it's so foreign and frightening she loads defenses against it and almost lashes out in reponse. She will likely never let him care for her and protect her overtly. She can take care of herself...been doing it for 30 some odd years. It's a very hard habit to break...even if she wants to. She cannot allow herself to react emotionally to situations or to people (other than anger or disgust) because she's likely afraid she will completely lose herself. Emotions are scary to her. Look at her in Trojan Horst...she was very brave to be in that conversation with Marshall about why he wanted to leave. She looked a deer in the headlights. You could see her struggling so hard to not just break down and cry (the comment "I wish they would come already" ...then she could end that conversation). We've never seen her cry with Raph (have we)? It would be way too risky to show him that side of her...but that's what he wants. He wants desperately to connect with her emotionally because he feels very deeply about things and has no fear of sharing that.

Now...all the above make Marshall very, very safe to Mary. He is rational, not emotional, but she knows how he thinks so he is predictable. That makes his emotions understandable to her...she's very in tune with his emotions even if she doesn't know it. He knows her fear of emotion, rejection and her need to be in control of a situation. You never see him take a situation out of her control (unlike what Raph did with the commercial). He is able to "talk her down" using rational ideas and also is an interpreter of sorts for her. He explains why people do what they do. He knows this...that's why he tells her he feels like a keeper of an exotic animal. She trusts him because he accepts her for who she is. She can be completely herself, with no ramification from him that is threatening to her. When she crosses the line (as in telling Raph about the job without consulting Marshall), he explains to her exactly what she did wrong and how it made him feel. She doesn't have to guess at why he is mad. She's able to fight with him without fear of rejection or humiliation. Also, he knows when to stand back and let her regroup when she's on the emotional edge (gilted lily...he lets her walk it out). She knows, however, that he would be there in a minute if she really lost it (on the rooftop in "who's bugging Mary"). But you also see how careful he is with her when she is emotional...he knows she can't be smothered. All that makes him an equal in her eyes. She knows he understands her and accepts her. She is very protective of Marshall because she views him as one of (if not the only) the people she can trust completely. She was scared spitless of losing him in Trojan Horst. She would truly feel completely alone without him. Unwittingly, she has put herself under his care and protection...exactly what Raph wants to do for her. It's just that Mary can't know she's protected and cared for. Marshall knows how fragile Mary actually is. He realizes she could be shattered by anything that pierces her fierce self-protectedness and "aura of invincibility". She has to be able to maintain the facade...and he's there to make sure she can do that...even though she knows he sees right through it (she knew he knew she wasn't happy about the engagement).
They're perfect for each other...but I don't know if either of them can muster up enough chutzpah to try for a romantic relationship. In Mary's eyes...that could ruin everything...even though I think she realizes she loves Marshall. She still says he's her best friend, even though she's engaged to Raph.

Gee...maybe I have a little too much insight in Mary...yeah...I'm a lot like her. I get it. It'll take a long time for her to reconcile her feelings for Marshall. She's looking at him in a slightly different light now (he told her he loves her). She's thinking about that a lot. If she thinks, even for an instant, she would possibly lose him by allowing herself to love him, she will chose not to love him (or at least not to admit to it). There is no emotional risk taking with Mary. We'll have to see what happens.

I love it!

Mary, I believe, compartmentalizes things and people to keep her life in order. She seems to classify people into three categories, 1) those with authority over her - like Stan; those who are her equals - Marshall, and to a certain extent, Eleanor and maybe Peter; and 3) those she is responsible for - Jinx, Brandi, Raph and her witnesses. How she treats the people in her life depends on which category they get filed under during those first impressions.

Marshall, probably earned his status in category #2 by not allowing her to make him need her (am I making sense??). I can easily envision that the early days of their partnership were much like these early days of her relationship with Eleanor (oh to have been privy to those fireworks!). By challenging her from the beginning and standing their ground, they earned her respect.

Raph, by virtue of being a "friend with privileges" for most of their time together, defied categorization. Her default category for people is probably #3 until proven otherwise. I imagine that because he wanted to be with her, he played by her rules and bowed to her will, and that kept him in #3. Now, those roles are deep set and Raph is bucking the status quo by trying to assert himself in the relationship. She made a comment in the finale about him not being the guy she got engaged to, and in many ways, he's not. He's found his voice and she doesn't want to hear it.

I didn't mean that Ralph wants to make Mary his domestic goddess, I meant that if Marshall and Mary ever hook up, then Marshall (by virtual of the change in their relationship) will make some of the same kinds of demands on Mary—have some of the same expectations of Mary as the ones that we are now placing at Ralph's feet. That is, change in nature of relationship = change in dynamics of relationship.

Being someone partner is one set of dynamics—but hooking up is another.

Living with someone is one set of dynamics—but marrying someone is another.

Marshall may seem "perfect" for Mary, but maybe that's because he makes no demands on her. If they hookup, what going to happen when he (and he will) does? The point I'm going for here is that just Ralph because is making some demands on Mary that anyone (including Marshall if the time comes) who cares about more than the "physical" would make, does not mark him as automatically being "not right for Mary".

Even Marshall can't love Mary in a vacuum.

To me, it's not that there wouldn't be change or expectations if Mary hooked up with Marshall. It's more about how those changes and expectations are managed.

Because the dynamic of the Mary/Raph relationship changed so fast, it's overwhelming her. She accepted his proposal and in the blink of an eye, he's running through her life like a bull in a china shop (fixing the house, the budget, moving in, etc.). He's so anxious to get on to the next part of his life, he doesn't realize what he's doing. Heck, he probably doesn't even really know her well enough to understand why she's bristling under all this change.

In contrast, if Marshall and Mary were to ever hook up, he already knows the best way to get Mary to accept change is to do it in small, easily digestible bites. He understands her well enough to know he can't try to dictate to her or control her, but he can guide her and encourage her to accept new circumstances.

That's why if there is ever to be a Mary/Marshall relationship, it will be a long time in the works. Which I think ties in to this comment:

Exactly, and he's the same way. We already saw this demonstrated in Season 1 when he shelved his feelings for her after the Horst deal. Her kidnapping ordeal brought some of it back out, but the engagement and shooting have really brought it all back to the surface. He'll try his best to put it away again, but the difference is that this time she's clued in to how he feels. They'll still do this dance of denial for a while, not wanting to take the chance of scaring the other away.

I think Mary allowed her self to become engaged because for one fleeting moment (the night of the engagement party), she saw Raph as an equal. Unfortunately for him, when he began to charge through her life, she took it as him being needy and clingy, but by then, she was stuck. She won't end up marrying Raph, but she won't be running into Marshall's arms either. They'll lean on each other for support like they always do, but neither will be willing to make the first move to anything more.

M/M shippers better buckle up for a bumpy ride.

Ah, okay. I misunderstood your question.

To kinda address your actual question, I think that if Mary were dating Marshall right now, they'd be having a lot of the same problems that Mary is having with Raph because she's just not ready for this level of commitment. Which is why I wouldn't want Mary to run from Raph to Marshall. She needs to be single or date only casually for a while and work on a few of her issues. She wants to be ready, and seems to be crossing her fingers and hoping everything will just work out, but she really isn't ready and you can't wish your way into a good relationship.

Raph seems be doing a lot of the same finger-crossing and wishing as well. He seems to think that if they just keep pushing forward somehow everything will fall into place. I have a hard time understanding his motivations sometimes. I really don't know why he initially proposed to her when he did, or why he had apparently been thinking about it for six months. At that point, Mary wouldn't even admit that he was her boyfriend (that very morning she told Marshall "He's not my boyfriend" when he read in the paper about Raph possibly moving on to the Majors). Why would you want to marry someone who has a hard time even admitting that you have a relationship and spends most of her time blowing you off? And why would you want to marry someone who is almost never nice to you?

I think the person above who pointed out that Raph often gets lumped into the same category as Mary's family is onto something. Mary loves Brandi and Jinx because they are her family, but she doesn't seem to like them very much. The same thing appears to be true with Raph - I think she does love him on some level, but I've also never gotten the impression that she likes or respects him very much. They don't just hang out and have a good time together. And Mary acts different around him than she does with just about anyone else. She's not relaxed and herself. Compare the way she talks or jokes around with Marshall or Eleanor to the way she interacts with Raph. It just isn't the same, and not really in a good way.

So while I do think Marshall would be a better match in that Mary actually likes and respects him, can be herself around him, and Marshall knows her well enough and can read her well enough to know what will work and won't work and wouldn't just blindly push forward (and as awnm pointed out, while there will still be expectations, Marshall would manage them differently than Raph), I don't think anything would work between them right now because Mary simply isn't ready for a serious relationship. Will she be in the future? Maybe. Maybe not. I also agree with the poster above that Mary would be super-cautious, or maybe even too fearful to enter into a romantic relationship with Marshall for a while because there's too much risk involved for her. If it didn't work out, she'd be losing her best friend in addition to her boyfriend, and I think the idea of losing Marshall terrifies her. She might get there one day, but it will be a long road.

ETA: I think Marshall is a bit afraid of the risk as well. I think a big part of what holds him back and keeps him from making a move (besides knowing that Mary isn't really ready for a relationship at the moment) is that I don't think he really knows how Mary feels about him. Heck, Mary might not be all that clear on the subject herself. So he doesn't want to risk that rejection, and he doesn't want to risk the damage to their friendship that rejection would cause.

I don't think Marshall is attracted to needy women at all. He viewed the mistress in Who Shot Jay Arnstein with disdain because of her neediness. High maintenance women would turn him off. He doesn't like needy in general. He was really disgusted and irritated with the father in Iris doesn't Live Here Anymore. That was one needy individual. You see how he generally avoids Jinx and Brandi unless there's a reason to interact with them, and then it's minimal. He would be attracted to a strong, intelligent woman...like the TA, the shrink (until she reverted back to the needy ex) and Mary. He likes someone who can give him some challenge in all arenas...verbal word play, physical activities (remember the TA texts and Mary saying "are you really that flexible???") and opinions. He doesn't want clingy or sappy.
That's just my take on him.

Love the "Dr. Phil" comment.

Must admit, some posters "go deep". Taking nothing way from the posters, but I also think that it's kudos to the writers that they put so much out there the viewers-can-sink-their-teeth-into.

In fact, I enjoy reading all the posts—light, heavy, poignant, cheeky—and think we get a really good mix. Of course, I don't agree with all of them—but then what would be the fun in that?

I agree, Jared! It's fun to use the imagination and make things up. Thus, the appeal of the fictional character. I'm sure the personal spin we put on the characters we watch is what makes the show individually special and fun.

Keep reading...I'm bound to post something really stupidly hilarious at some point

HAHAHAHA. Love that final thought. Good one. I think your take on Mary & her relationships is "spot on" as they say. I think Raph & Brandi belong together.
Have you seen the "Demotivators" poster::: "The only consistent feature in all of your dissatisfying relationships is you."

http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html

I love you guys! I'm gone for a few weeks and then come back to all this. I really enjoyed reading all your well-reasoned and well-supported arguments for and against this engagement.

I especially loved awmn's comment about Mary's three categories of people. I've always liked Eleanor and thought she was an important character in a lot of ways, and that articulated why: she stands up to Mary and is competent at what she does, and it forces Mary to realize that just because she dislikes someone doesn't make them an idiot. The mention of Peter, too, was interesting, because I think that's true. In the episode where he gives Brandi a car, Mary doesn't approve but she talks to him about it like he's a real adult, not disdainfully like she would to Jinx or Brandi. I wonder why that is? Maybe she sees that he went through a rough patch but managed to pull himself out of it and is now successful and self-reliant, and that forces her to respect him.

I'd also forgotten about the scene Basia pointed out where Mary tells Marshall Raph isn't her boyfriend, then he proposes. Could anything point more eloquently to how out of sync these two characters are with each other?

I really liked kelwarrior's comment that Raph is comfortable with his emotions but because of her family, Mary equates that with him not being worthy of her respect, which is why he goes in category 3. I've never thought about it before, but I think it explains where a lot of this conflict between Raph and Mary comes from. It makes me feel sorry for him. Actually, the whole engagement does. I love Raph . . . which is why I think he deserves so much better than Mary. She loves him but she will never be the kind of girl he wants, the kind who will talk about her deepest feelings until they both feel they know each other better than anyone else in the world.

No, the one who knows her best than anyone in the world is Marshall, because he knows that all these issues and secrets that she holds inside, she will never willingly talk about or share. So instead he has carefully and painstakingly observed her over the years and learned to read her every move. For instance, take the scene when she tells him she's engaged, and he asks her if she's happy. I'm sure there are other interpretations of that scene, but I saw it as him being able to tell she's not. How can he tell she's unhappy in her engagement when her own fiance can't? It's because Raph doesn't understand her, doesn't understand that just because he likes to talk about his feelings doesn't mean everyone else does too, doesn't understand that with Mary he has to look for the hints to get the whole picture. It's Marshall who has taken the time to get to know her. It's like Raph keeps waiting for her to open up to him, and since she hasn't yet (as much as he'd like) he tries to force it with engagements and budgets; while Marshall has realized that she's already as emotionally open as she can bear right now, and he's willing to wait for her and be quietly supportive until she's comfortable with more.

What's ironic, really, is that Marshall and Raph both have what the other wants. Marshall wants Mary's love, which Raph currently has. What Raph really wants from Mary, though, is emotional intimacy, which she only shares with Marshall. As awmn said, "He may have her heart and body, but something (work) and someone (Marshall) else has her soul."

So eloquently put.
That scene when Mary tells Marshall she is engaged is just painful. Fraught with tension. You know that both of them have words and thoughts racing through their minds and they are choosing their words as if they are in a minefield. Neither wants to be having the conversation.
And yes, Marshall reads her every move. He definitely knows her better than anyone...even her family. He's almost spookily in tune with her (and her with him). I think of Raph and Mary as speaking a different language (yes...I know they actually do! ). Raph speaks with his emotions...he is openly loving and compassionate and his mood matches his body language. He reads other people with that language assuming they speak the same. He has not learned Mary's language. Mary speaks through body language. The way she holds herself, the distance she assumes, whether she meets your eye or not. What she may be saying (and her facial expressions) does not always mean how she truly feels. She can smile at you when she's ready to rip your head off. You can often almost feel the vibrations of anger/frustration when she seems totally calm. Mary does not understand Raph's language and she also doesn't understand why he doesn't understand her. Now, Marshall is bilingual. He can speak with emotions and he can also speak body language. He reads Mary exceptionally well and responds accordingly. He's also very careful to guard his emotions around Raph as he knows Raphael will pick up on his affection for Mary.
And Marshall has Mary's love. She trusts him totally and would not "sell him out for a twinkie" as she once threatened Mary may not realize she loves Marshall, but he would always be the one she would turn to in need, and she would be devastated if he were to leave.

Thanks! I'm glad my ramblings made sense to someone!

I think Peter is a lot like Eleanor. He isn't afraid of Mary and will speak his mind to her, and has credibility to back it up. As Marshall commented to Stan when Eleanor first started "she'll just have to earn her bones with Mary just like everyone else." I think both Eleanor and Peter have done just that.

I've been watching the 2nd season again and I noticed that where Mary seems to make a conscious decision to try to have a more normal relationship with Raph (as opposed to just sex) was at the end of Humboldt when she realized that he was the one that disposed of Brandi's drugs and she tells him "I may have underestimated you." Makes me wonder if she made this decision because she feels like she owed it to him because of the help with Brandi, not to mention her traumatic experience. Not something I would put past her. However, what her head is telling her and what her gut is telling her are probably two very conflicting things. In her head, she should love Raph, he's a good man, good to her and good to and with her family. But her gut isn't in it. Her gut is telling her "Danger, Will Robinson!".

If she were truly happy with Raph, not only would Marshall have not had to pry the news out of her with a crowbar, he wouldn't have been surprised about by the news because he would be able to tell by her emotional state up to that point. As it was, the only hint he got about the seriousness of their relationship was that Raph's mother thought they were engaged, and Mary was extremely unhappy about it (the "planning a funeral instead of engagement party" crack). Next thing Marshall knows is that he's staring at a tan line on her "important" finger. The poor guy practically got whiplash from that 180! Most women would be radiating joy at being in love. Even Mary would at least give off a vibe that Marshall could read. No, this isn't love. Maybe duty or obligation. Perhaps a romantic notion clouded by lust. But not love.

I also noticed that the elapsed time between the FBI raiding the house and O'Connor arresting Brandi was about three months (she asked Brandi what the FBI had now they didn't have three months ago). Therefore, the time between Humboldt and Jailbait, where she finally accepts the ring, is about two months, give or take. So they went from "friends with privileges" to really dating to engaged and him moving in and making household budgets in about three months. That's not a lot of time for Mary to acclimate to a new reality. Not to mention the Lauren thing, the daddy thing, Jinx's recovery, Brandi's arrest, etc. No wonder she feels like she's been caught in an avalanche.

Oops. I'm rambling again!

Ramble away. This is all very interesting.

I think it's very telling that now that the whole office knows about her engagement, she's still not wearing her ring. I noticed when she woke up to the sound of Raph's voice on TV, she wasn't even wearing it. Although she had no problem telling Francesca. But Francesca was a temporary person in her life and not as threatening. I still think Mary would be a lot better off if Jinx and Brandi would move out. I'm sure she comes home every night wondering what the crisis du jour is going to be. Although both are doing so much better. That rehab was really effective!

All good points (and tuesday and kelwarrior had some excellent points too). And I absolutely agree with you on the ending of "Humbolt." Mary had been very dismissive of Raph up to that point. She hadn't talked to him at all since getting kidnapped. Heck, she forgot to even tell him about it! He had to learn about it from Brandi. She had to write down "Call Raph" on her to-do list, because it just wasn't something that came naturally to her (meanwhile when something happens she almost always automatically grabs the phone off her waist and calls Marshall - and not just for work stuff). Then she doesn't even get around to calling him -- he ends up calling her. All signs that she didn't consider him all that important or a priority, and not a source of emotional support. Even at the end when he asked her to get him a towel -- she initially just slapped the washcloth on the shower door and was ready to just walk out when she put two and two together and figured out that Raph was the one who ditched the drugs. Only then did she suddenly decide that he was worth her time and effort. I think maybe Mary began to confuse gratitude with love. That Raph was a good guy, and he did this good thing that saved Brandi and Mary, so he "deserved" a second chance. I really don't think she would have gotten any closer to him if she hadn't figured out that he was the one who ditched the drugs.

And I agree that her head and her gut are in conflict. Intellectually, Mary knows that she's got a guy that many women would love to have. He's handsome, patient, kind, and he cares about her. Most importantly, he hadn't run away yet (like her father did). Mary probably drives off her boyfriends pretty quickly, and Raph has probably lasted a lot longer than most of them do. And he did this great thing for her and Brandi with the drugs. She'd be crazy to not want that, right?

But her gut is screaming that this is all wrong. Unfortunately, I think Mary is misreading her gut. I think she believes that all the misgivings she feels about the relationship are the result of her issues and committment phobia, not because it's a bad match. I think that's why she's pushing forward despite feeling miserable about everything. That's why I think Marshall was right when he said that she painted herself into a corner so she would have to make the relationship work. She was trying to keep from tripping herself up with her emotional issues like she usually does. But the problem is that her internal alarm bells are ringing for completely different reasons.

And finally, yes, Mary is not acting like a woman in love, a woman who has decided to spend the rest of her life with the man she loves, usually a joyous occasion. The engagement has been nothing but a source of stress for Mary, not a source of joy. And I noticed that she wasn't wearing the ring, either. Not even during the scene when everyone (including Raph) was in the kitchen eating breakfast. It would be one thing if she didn't want to wear it while working in that bad neighborhood, but it looked like she had stopped wearing it all together.

This is all why I hope the show's new producers (whoever they turn out to be) go ahead and end this relationship and allow both Mary and Raph to move in different directions (doing a 180 now after two seasons of their bad relationship would be nonsenical). They just don't understand each other, and they operate on completely different frequencies. They are almost never on the same page. They may say that "all you need is love" but that really isn't true. Mary and Raph care about each other, but it really is not enough for a successful relationship.

Even when Mary had a chance to tell Raph about the kidnapping, she didn't. Remember, he came over drunk, saying he left 20 messages and was worried? She said "Didn't anyone tell you what happened yesterday?" and sounded concerned, then said kind of dismissively, "I lost my phone".

I can cut Mary a little slack about not telling Raph at that point. I'm not sure I'd have wanted to have that serious a conversation with someone with pickled brain cells.

BUT,

She couldn't tell him in all the time between the next morning and dealing with Jerry (Humboldt episode)? Granted, there was a 30-hour nap in there, but she also had time to clear the Lily Adams case too. Clearly, telling Raph about her harrowing experience was not high on her list. Maybe she thought he'd try to fix it? fix her? press her to open up about it? None of which she would have wanted to deal with. Marhsall was able to help her because he gave the space and support to work it out herself. You know that wouldn't have been Raph's way to dealing with it.

Mary really just isn't a sharer. She only told Jinx because Jinx really encouraged her to talk about it. I thought that was a really good speech, about not having to tell the whole world, just one person. And I think it took it all out of her to tell just one person. And I'm sure she didn't wan to be reliving it, either. Raphael needed to know, but I can see how Mary didn't want to talk about it. Interesting that Jinx or Brandi didn't think to call Raph while it was going on. But they weren't thinking clearly, what with the person who takes care of them kidnapped and a suitcase full of drugs (although it wasn't, but they didn't know that) with the FBI swarming all over. I have to wonder what the neighbors were thinking.

Yeah, exactly. I don't blame her at all for not wanting to talk about anything serious when Raph was drunk. It would have been pretty pointless. But then she didn't tell him about it. At all. Not even "I got kidnapped, but I don't want to talk about it." And it wasn't even that she didn't tell him about that specific incident, but that she didn't talk to him period since it happened. At the beginning of Humbolt, Mary was all, "Crap - Raph! I haven't talked to him since that night!" It was clearly at least a few days later, and she hadn't picked up the phone to even touch base with him. And when she realized that she hadn't talked to him, she didn't grab her phone and call him him up (she could have easily talked to him while she drove to work). Instead she put it on her to-do list so she'd actually remember to do it.

I'm not surprised that Jinx and Brandi didn't call Raph. They were too busy worrying about Brandi getting busted and yelling at Mary for ruining their lives despite the fact that she had just been through a horrible ordeal (I really did not like them in that episode).

I wouldn't say Mary is misreading her gut, I'd say she's trying to ignore it and move in a direction she *knows* is not not right. Like you said, Basia, Marshall was right that she's painted herself into a corner. This is a woman who has survived by relying on her gut...for her to ignore it is like someone continuing to stick pins into themselves even when they know it's going to hurt. It's wearing her down and making her more and more unhappy. Marshall sees it...and we get to see it as she has become more and more cranky and intolerant since the engagement. And poor Marshall...since he's so in tune with Mary, he's getting cranky too. That crack at her in "once upon a Ponzi" when he says "why don't you ask her fiance...he's in the know" was plain petty and mean. Not like Marshall. Her strain is putting a strain on their relationship.

I do agree with the fact she feels some obligation to Raph. He's there for her, he loves her, he's always kind and her family loves him. She may be thinking "if I just keep moving forward, at some point it'll become right". She's taken an inner stand to stick to a relationship and make it work (like Marshall said) no matter how she actually feels about it. I think she desperately wants to be in love with Raph...but she doesn't know what being in love is like, so she can't even fake it well

I wonder who will break it off? Mary's so stubborn, and she doesn't want to look like a fool, so it would be hard for her. Plus, that annoying habit of honoring her commitments! Also, she's met Raph's mom and knows how important it is to her. Raph is pretty stubborn himself. Plus, he doesn't want to hurt his mother or look like a fool. But I think Raph is reaching his limit with Mary. He was very direct with her about her not having a right to decide what he does for a living. That's the angriest we've seen him.

Since Mary couldn't deal with Raph (or even thought about it) after the kidnapping, I highly doubt she will want to deal with him or the relationship while recovering from the gunshot. This makes me think Raph will be the one to end it. But how? When?...the world won't know until freakin' March!!!

You may be right. But it makes me wonder why a woman who has lived by her gut for probably most of her life has decided to go against what her gut is telling her - and keep doing it, despite the fact that things aren't exactly going well (and you're right that the whole thing is rubbing Marshall raw too. He's upset because he's brokenhearted, but I also think that he can clearly see that Mary is not happy, but there's nothing he can do to stop her. He was uncharacteristically mean in "Ponzi" - even though I completely understood his anger. And it was clearly something that was still bothering him in the finale. When Raph brought up that he knew the truth about Mary's job, Marshall still seemed angry/uncomfortable about it).

I do wonder who will call it off (and I really hope that they do and the new producers don't try to pull a 180 on this thing. It's about two seasons too late for that). Both of them are just blindly pushing forward, crossing their fingers and hoping that somehow everything will magically get better, and it isn't making either of them happy. Part of me hopes that Mary will be the one to call it off after she realizes that she can't MAKE something like this happen, and she shouldn't try to force herself into a "normal" life when it doesn't fit her (someone once described this relationship as a square peg in a round hole, and I think that describes it perfectly). But another part of me hopes that Raph is the one who calls it off so he can walk away with some dignity intact after two seasons of Mary being mean and dismissive towards him. He deserves better.

The more I think about it, the more I think Marshall feels betrayed. Hurt and angry are just the symptoms.

In some ways, he had already decided to move on when he went on the date with Dr. Finkle. If you remember when the date ended badly and he was at the office reading, Mary grabbed the whiskey and told him "you still got me, Rico". All seemed relatively well in their world. Then, she starts keeping secrets from him like the engagement and telling Raph about the job. They're supposed to be best friends and she's hiding big stuff like this from him? Suddenly, he feels that he doesn't even really have her friendship anymore.

I think he's hurt because she betrayed their friendship by not confiding in him about the engagement, or even the fact that the relationship was getting serious (of course Mary didn't know it was getting serious until Raph's mom showed up!). He's angry because she betrayed his trust by blowing their cover to Raph, then making him seem like the bad guy for being upset about it. Most of all, I think he's upset because she's betraying herself. He's helped her pick up the pieces when her world has crumbed around her a couple of times already, and he sees she's headed for another train wreck. But because she's shutting him out, all he can do is watch.

By the time we get to the hospital waiting room and the discussion between Raph and Marshall about the job, I think Marshall's emotional state is more of resignation than anger about the issue. What's done is done. He's uncomfortable having the conversation in a public setting, with Jinx and Brandi just a few feet away, but was surprised with how well Raph handled talking to Francesca and covering the true nature of her relationship to Mary to the others.

Now the ball's in Mary's court to figure out what she truly wants out of her life. I mentioned in another thread that I think the powers that be are deconstructing Mary and Marshall's relationship to rebuild it in a different place. The emotional wounds to their relationship are just as traumatic as her physical wound. The rebuilding may not romantic, but a deeper friendship and partnership as she seeks his support in her recovery. I just don't see Mary giving Raph the chance to be her support like he would truly like. It's just not in her to see him that way.

[/quote]
In some ways, he had already decided to move on when he went on the date with Dr. Finkle. If you remember when the date ended badly and he was at the office reading, Mary grabbed the whiskey and told him "you still got me, Rico". All seemed relatively well in their world. Then, she starts keeping secrets from him like the engagement and telling Raph about the job. They're supposed to be best friends and she's hiding big stuff like this from him? Suddenly, he feels that he doesn't even really have her friendship anymore.

I think he's hurt because she betrayed their friendship by not confiding in him about the engagement, or even the fact that the relationship was getting serious (of course Mary didn't know it was getting serious until Raph's mom showed up!). He's angry because she betrayed his trust by blowing their cover to Raph, then making him seem like the bad guy for being upset about it. Most of all, I think he's upset because she's betraying herself. He's helped her pick up the pieces when her world has crumbed around her a couple of times already, and he sees she's headed for another train wreck. But because she's shutting him out, all he can do is watch.
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Definitely. Naturally, she's supposed to be turning to Raph with the hard stuff as her future spouse, but since she and Marshall have been best friends for so long, he's having a really hard time separating. I also think he is a bit upset with himself for feeling betrayed and hurt. He may not have realized how much he cared for her. He wants to reel her back in, but can't. He wants to save her, but can't. And he wants to not feel hurt and lonely, but can't. Poor guy.

[/quote]
Now the ball's in Mary's court to figure out what she truly wants out of her life. I mentioned in another thread that I think the powers that be are deconstructing Mary and Marshall's relationship to rebuild it in a different place. The emotional wounds to their relationship are just as traumatic as her physical wound. The rebuilding may not romantic, but a deeper friendship and partnership as she seeks his support in her recovery. I just don't see Mary giving Raph the chance to be her support like he would truly like. It's just not in her to see him that way.
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I would love to see a deeper friendship rebuilt. Let it grow and flourish. Maybe it'll help Mary heal and recognize the love she gets from those around her. Then, in the very last show of the very last season, they can up the stakes

I think he's always tried to move on in little ways. Back in season one when he considered taking another job. Or when his old college TA showed him that she was VERY interested, he went for it. Why not? No promise of anything with Mary. Same thing with Dr. Finkle, I think. She was an attractive lady who showed that she was definitely interested, so why not. It's actually something I've always kinda liked - he's never been a martyr about this thing, and he knows that he should move on and try to have a normal dating life, and he does try. He just hasn't had much luck. I just think that his "date thing" at the end was a direct result of Mary's engagement and her stubborn adherence to that engagement, and was Marshall telling himself, "Okay, that's it. You really need to move on."


And I think you're right that he's mad and hurt about a number of things. With marriage, Raph would replace that position in Mary's life Marshall almost always fills (at least he's supposed to. Who knows if Mary would allow him). He probably sees evidence of that with the way she kept the engagement from him, and the way she didn't even have the courtesy to give him a heads-up before she blew his cover with Raph - only if Mary were actually thinking these things through instead of making all these impulsive decisions, she probably would talk to Marshall about them. Or, actually, she probably wouldn't be making them at all if she had actually thought about them first. But Marshall doesn't know that these were impulsive decisions, and as far as he knows, she's been keeping all this from him for a while. So he's feeling a growing distance between himself and Mary, and he probably is mad at himself for getting that upset when it isn't like there ever was a romantic relationship between them. And I wonder if a small part of him is kicking himself for never taking a shot when he might have had a chance.



I could get behind this, and it would be a nice thing to see. They are obviously good friends, but they really cover it up most of the time with their teasing and snarking. It would be nice to see them more openly acknowledge how important they are to each other. I have a hard time seeing Mary allow Raph to play that role, too. She really hasn't so far. Every time she's had to lean on someone emotionally it has been Marshall or her mother.

And this could fit in nicely with the "more WitSec, less family" angle it seems the network wants. It could be set up kinda like The X-Files - that show focused on Mulder and Scully's work, rather than their wacked out families (though we did get hints of that every now and again). And while each episode dealt with their cases/investigations/aliens/whatnot, it was really a show about Mulder and Scully. Even if leave out any romance/shipper stuff, they had a great partnership and it was lovely to see them grow closer over the course of the show and how it was clear that they were the most important people in the world to each other. This show could easily do something similar - or at least the photo negative of that formula since the network wants to lighten things up (TXF seemed to be primarily drama/angst with a healthy dose of lightness and humor, and IPS can go the other way around - lightness and humor with a healthy dose of drama/angst). McCormack and Weller have the chemistry and rapport to easily make their partnership the foundation of the show. Instead of dealing with aliens, they deal with witnesses. Instead of the shadow of a government trying to undermine their investigations hanging over their head, they got to deal with the fact that they work in a morally gray area and put criminals/murderers back on the street, give them a second chance and a clean slate that most people don't get, and risk their lives to protect them.

I believe that Mary needs both Raph and Marshall in her life, for different reasons, different kinds of support. I don't see it as necessarily a choice she has to make between the two, an either-or situation.

Right now, I'm going to concentrate on the Mary-Raph relationship, but approach it from a different angle than other posters.

I see Raph as a refuge for Mary, a role often played by a spouse/significant other. He has provided stability, which is wobbling a bit as he's in a crisis neither has fully recognized but which is adding great stress to their relationship.

She needs stability and someone to lean on in her personal life, yet believes that admitting that, and admitting to the seriousness of the relationship, somehow is a weakness and makes her needy in the eyes of others, rather than just human. (She denied he was her boyfriend, pushes him away, is mean to him, and even passes off their engagement as no big deal.) Emotion as weakness has no place in the world she has created, a world which could spin off its axis if she lets up for a second. Hence, her control issues, dread of change, and fear of surprises. We know Mary is emotionally fragile, and she's set up these defense mechanisms to protect this carefully constructed world from crumbling.

Yet, she has let Raph in. There is something (more than sex) that pulls them together. Their relationship has grown over a two-season arc, and even when she's stalked out or he's been unfaithful, they have always come back to each other. (Just to pick out some highlights: at the end of "Never the Bride", Mary RAN -- RAN -- to Raphael. In "Iris Doesn't Live Here Anymore", after stomping out after Brandi stopped by his apartment, she returned to Raph and silently laid her head on his chest and he wrapped his arms around her as she talked in her monologue about forgiveness not being the flip side of contrition but the better angels of our nature binding up our wounds as the cost of doing business. At the end of "Rubble", she returned to Raph after a hard day at the office -- she didn't just go to her house and call it a day. After their argument over the WITSEC research on the laptop, she made amends with the WITSEC book in "Once a Ponzi Time".)

It's volatile, but it has worked for them in large part because he's been so solid and patient as she worked through her many issues. Often times, we assume more from our "family" than we do of others -- that they will understand when we're cranky or tired or busy with work, and yet we expect them to be there for us when we need them. I just keep thinking that that's how Mary thinks of Raphael. She takes him for granted, and maybe she's even testing him throughout, wondering how much he can take before leaving -- because she doesn't see herself as worthy of such a great guy.

We have all focused on Mary's need to change, or ability to change -- but she's changing, ever so slowly. Raph is changing, too, throughout Season Two. He's not a static character. He continues to learn about Mary, and her job. He knows how difficult she is (and has seen it even more so since moving in), but has shown that he's willing to take her on. He's now in a career change, has given up his apartment, has financial uncertainty. I see their arguing as part of what happens in a real relationship, more so in this case because of Mary's issues, crazy hours and stressful job -- which she still can't discuss with him. No one's relationship with her is easy, even Marshall's.

Back to Raph. While all of that is going on, at the time of the engagement, he's entering his own period of upheaval, his crisis. He's no longer Mr. Stability. He has lost the core of his identity and his confidence. He's struggling.

His entire adult life, and most of his childhood and youth, I imagine, has been wrapped up in baseball, and being very good at it, with at least one stint in the majors. That was his identity. He was a baseball player. He's now lost that. Mary, too, has never known him as anything but that. He had a confdence and strength as a ball player. They now both have to adjust to the new reality. By moving in with Mary, Raph also has now lost his independence of movement and time management, with the added stress that he's now living on his fiancee's largesse by moving into her house. It may be what he wanted, but that doesn't make it any less difficult or exactly how he pictured it. He wants to contribute while he sorts things out. That's what responsible guys do -- they want to support their families.

She's right. He's not the man she got engaged to -- though she still sees him as "very sweet" and became almost girlish when talking about him with Francesca. And she was still calling him her fiance. But he's struggling, and she doesn't see that, nor is she seeing the man he can again become with support, understanding, and patience -- not major Mary traits up to this point (which doesn't mean she can't develop them, especially during her recovery). But she's wrapped up in how his situation affects her, not what he's going through. The shooting interrupted any possibility of working through that in "real time" -- and her conversation with Francesca indicated that she was working through the "humiliation" of the commercial.

I'll repeat here my take about her own fear of humiliation being based in the abject humiliation she must have faced in her childhood -- abandonment by her father, a drunk mother sleeping around, a sister constantly in trouble, taunting schoolkids, both Jinx and Brandi later getting arrested and having their cases heard in Mary's own courthouse in front of her colleagues. Francesca's opinion mattered when she told Mary the commercial was not humiliating, to which Mary said "OK". But, because of the shooting, Mary never had the opportunity to make up with Raph for that morning's argument, as she did before with the WITSEC book. But Raph seemed bucked up a bit when Francesca told him Mary had told her all about the two of them.

All of this is why I would like to see Raph get back into baseball in some capacity. Maybe the owners of his old team saw the commercial and decide to make him the marketed face of the team, and he then gets into broadcasting, putting him on the road enough to give the relationship breathing space -- many relationships flourish when they have room to breathe. And that gives the series the opportunity to focus on the WITSEC side of things and Mary's other relationships, too.

Raph is happy he's back in baseball. Mary is happy he's back in baseball, and Raph as she knows him is back. He's Mr. Stability, her refuge and strong, confident guy.

The shooting of course, changes everything. It wipes the slate clean. But it opens the lines for further communication and growth. This is Mary's hour of need, and he can help with her recovery. But will he stay with the strain of maybe losing her every day she goes to work? Or will it just deepen their connection? Will she want to take a bullet for a witness, when she has more to live for? Maybe she'll think life is short and just go for it and marry him. Maybe she will imprint on her doctor and fall for him. Maybe, maybe, maybe. She has the chance to build her life anew. What direction she takes it in -- well, we'll all have to wait and see.

Those are some great observations, and it's nice to see someone approaching this from a different angle. And I think you're really hit on some things (like Mary not able to admit that she's human and she needs love and a connection to others).

But my main issue has always kinda boiled down to this:



Because I've never really seen that. I think Raph is trying to play that role. I think Mary wants him to play that role. I think she wants a relationship, she wants some normalcy, and she likes that Raph is a nice steady guy. But while they have had some moments of peace, he has almost always been another source of stress for her. She has never really let him in emotionally (because she refuses to be vulnerable around him) and I think they both keep reaching for a connection, but keep missing each other because they just simply aren't on the same page.

I freely admit that I just want this relationship to end, but not because I want Mary to go running to Marshall. Rather because I've never found it satisfying, and I just do not understand what Raph is getting out of it. At all.

I only half-watched season one when it aired, and at the time I found Raph boring and a useless distraction from the meat of the show. But then I got the DVDs and had a little marathon, and I walked away liking Raph. I also walked away wondering what the hell he was doing with Mary. I can see what Mary gets out of the relationship and what she's trying to get out of the relationship, but I don't understand what Raph is getting out of it. Mary gives almost nothing back. She's mean to him and dismissive of him. Raph may understand that she doesn't give anything back because she's emotionally unable to, but the bottom line remains that she doesn't give anything back. Raph having infinite patience and loving her dispite that is a lovely romantic notion, but it's not very realistic and it's really all that healthy either. And he really puzzled me when he said that he had bought the ring six months before he stuck it in the cupcake. At that point in time Mary couldn't even admit that he was her boyfriend and spent half her time running away from him or doing straight-up mean things to him like hanging up on him and refusing to give him a ride after her sister steals his car. Why would he want to marry someone like that? And why would he go so far as to buy a (very expensive-looking) ring for someone who clearly is no where near able to commit? Why does he feel so strongly connected to her when he seems happier and actually gets along with someone else, like Brandi? And it isn't like Raph is clinging to Mary because no one else will have him. He's a very good catch. But I don't see why he's stuck with her through all this while getting almost nothing in return other than "Mary's the heroine and she needs a boyfriend." It's just never been a relationship that was written/developed all that well to me. I see more evidence of that in the fact that Raph was MIA for most of the second season, we didn't really see Mary reconnecting with him (just a few shots of them before Mary goes to work or when she comes home at night), and the engagement came about only after some really silly sitcom-like shenanigans with Raph and his mother.

My other kind of test if how would I feel about it if the genders were reversed. What if Raph were a woman and Mary were a man and she treated him the same way she does now and says the same things. I think it would start to make me really uncomfortable.

So all that babbling amount to why I've just never been able to get behind this relationship and that I've grown tired of it and just want to see it end rather than see it fixed. Of course, others see it very differently, and they could be the ones picking up on the writers' true intentions, but this is the angle I'm coming from.

I like your different view of the situation. It's nice to see a different perspective.

I think you're right in that Mary needs these two men for different reasons. I'm not sure she's looking for stability, more that she's craving human contact and connection. For the longest time, all Raph was to her was, for lack of a better term, was stress relief. As you pointed out, she's sought him out after long, hard days because she could take refuge in his arms and forget about the world for a while. It was only in the last half of the second season that she actually tried to build a relationship with him. This being a new and novel experience for her did not make it easy on either of them. Someone further up made the observation that she wants to love him, but without an example in her life to draw from, she doesn't know how. As you point out, she equates emotion with weakness. Until she can get past that, she won't be able to have a meaningful relationship with anyone. She comes closest to this kind of connection with Marshall, but he's not who she seeks a physical connection with. Therefore, they both serve her needs.

Raph, on the other hand seems to know what love is, knows what he can offer to Mary and is patient enough to wait around for her to come around. But his patience is wearing thin. I'm not sure he'll be able to reconcile himself to being a "cop's wife". The uncertainty will grind him down. I do agree with you that she takes him for granted. That he'll be available on her terms and time table. As he presses her to be let in to her emotional center, she'll keep running the other way. Unless she does a complete 180 in her thinking, he'll get tired of being patient.



Yep. Unfortunately, these two picked the worst possible time to try for a marriage. All of the issues in his life, coupled with all the upheaval her own life has had over the last few months has stacked the deck against them. Seems to me, if the writers wanted this relationship to work long term, they wouldn't have rushed the engagement storyline. The plots would be just as compelling with her learning how to truly love someone as they would be watching her choke down this elephant (insert the old joke about how to eat an elephant here). Maybe they break off the engagement and start over taking things much slower. Who knows?



With the shooting, I think the biggest thing that will come out of it is that Mary will have to learn how to rely on others, emotionally and for the basics of daily life for a while. She has always been rabidly self-reliant and this will be a major mind alteration for her. She'll either get closer to people or drive them away, and that may depend on how they react around her. Those that can survive the coming storm will be closer to her for the experience. The rest will be left adrift at sea.

One thing I've noticed about Mary is that she respects someone who will give her the straight story. Tell her like it is without tiptoeing around or sugar coating it. Look at the folks she respects: Marshall, Eleanor, Peter. They're really the only ones who are honest with her. Maybe that's why she can't really muster up complete respect for Raph. He's always trying to be nice. In the last episode where he finally cuts loose and tells her she doesn't get to decide what he does for a living, she starts to look at him a little differently. Even Stan doesn't completely have her respect, I feel. He tries to talk her down and sugar coat things too. I think she can't completely trust people until she knows exactly what they think of her (good or bad), and unless they voice that to her, she holds some of herself back. She tests people that way.
I don't see Raph as being able to tell Mary what he really thinks of her to her face...and that means he'll never be more that a "stress relief", even if they try. Raph is a wonderful man, but he's *too* nice. I think she even feels a little guilty at times about how she treats him...and then that makes her feel worse. It's a lose-lose spiral for her. Raph is too sensitive.
What does Raph get out of this relationship?? That *is* a stumper. It does seem very one sided. Yes, he's nice enough to want to wait for her...but it's getting far fetched. He wants a traditional relationship so bad...can he not see this will never be it? hmmmm.

I think she was just surprised that he was finally pushing back (she's used to him caving when she pushes him around - like at the breakfast table when he told her that he could speak for himself), and probably realizing that she was being kinda mean (and feeling guilty about it). I really don't think it changed her perspective on him all that much. And she still was embarrassed by the commercial, instead of lightening up about it.



That is the other big problem here - they both have big issues with each other's careers/lifestyles, and they both want different things from each other and are waiting for the other person to change.

Raph wants a normal life with a house, shared finances and some kids where everyone sits down together for dinner every night after work and on weekends they go to their kids' little league games. Judging by the horrified look on Mary's face when Raph laid that all out over breakfast at the restaurant, that is not what she is looking for. Even if she craves some normalcy, Mary's life is never going to be normal. It just isn't in the cards with her family and she is definitely in the wrong line of work if she's looking for normal. But Raph seems to think that eventually (maybe once they're married) Mary will "settle down" and they can settle into that normal life together.

Mary wants to be able to live her life as she wants and Raph (as others have pointed out) available for her on her timetable. She can get called into work at 2:00 AM on a Sunday or that she might have to quickly leave town and be gone for a few days, and he's supposed to just accept that and not complain and Mary is supposed to call all the shots. Except it is becoming clear his patience is wearing thin. He's not willing to sit around and wait for her and keep his mouth shut. He's pushing back. He's getting more vocal about how he hates her job and what he wants. When Mary was complaining that he wasn't the guy she got engaged to, it's because he had finally started speaking up and wasn't the guy just willing to sit on the sidelines until Mary decides that she wants him around.



I agree. Mary accepting his proposal really came out of left field and followed an extremely silly set-up with Raph's mother (and Raph, for whatever reason, allowing his mother to slave over a meal instead of telling her the truth) and the rather heavy-handed way they showed in that episode that Mary was really feeling the void left by her father. It feels like it has "doomed" written all over it. And yes, they could step back and start over, going more slowly, but they are still going to run into that "they want different things" problem. Mary is either going to have to make a lot of huge life changes or Raph is going to have to go back to silently sitting on the sidelines waiting for her in addition to warming up to her job, because she's not quitting (otherwise we wouldn't have a show).