Hey there all,

As the title says, this thread is about speculations, guesses, and foreshadowing you have after watching the last two and half seasons of BN, or even just one show. It can include some press spoilery things if it helps you to speculate, guess or foreshadow. It can be about a character, a relationship, a plot line. I don't want to take ANYTHING a way from the SHIPPER Thread (Mike and Fi's relationship), so if you can post to both if you have a speculation about Mike and Fi (The shipper thread is my FAVORITE!!!!)

If you are like me this will be about your 20th time watching the last two and half seasons. Burn Notice, as Edward says in Twilight...my favorite kind of heroin (I was told by my students I had to read it or I wouldn't be cool, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it.)

Love suggestions on rules, if needed...

By the way, I don't have a problem with crazy, funny speculations, guesses, or foreshadowing...I can see myself writing dialogue for a guess.

And a shout out to Li Ann...thanks for helping me get my courage up to start this thread!

Anyway,

I will launch this with a BIG speculation...

I have thought all along that the agency is behind this whole thing...Like god testing Michael. I think management has infiltated the agency. They started out like contractors and are now trying to take over (Look at Strickler, he is well connected and I think a management tool, Diego said he did know who to trust in the agency). The powers that be have pick Michael in order to get management out. All the stuff he has been through, is a test to see if he is an honorable man. Given everything that has happens, will he sell his soul? Does he save the people he loves and looks for the out, or go in because it is the easy way. If he doesn't sell out, he's our guy. Because, when the agency brings him in, he will have to go deep into management.

So, what do YOU think will happen???????? Have fun!

MsSully

Great idea, MsSully! (Thanks for the nudge, LI_Ann. )

Okay, I just posted a rambling largely incoherent post over in the episode discussion thread for Long Way Back about all of my questions regarding Management, the various intelligence agencies, Strickler, and various other questions related to Michael's burn notice. I am even more confused and in the dark about Michael's predicament than ever...

I noticed some people were discussing the whole thing about Michael's time in Africa and Strickler's having wanted Michael to lie over how all of that played out. I was trying to figure out, where on earth did that fit into everything? Why that particular case (about the Somali warlords)? Was this in the same time frame as when Michael was in Nigeria working with the Russian warlords, which is when the burn notice actually happened? The reason I'm wondering about this is because what happened to make *that* moment in time the specific moment that the Agency burned Michael? Was there something that set that whole thing into motion, that had occurred in Africa around the same time? If so it would hardly seem a coincidence that Strickler brought up this particular piece of "evidence" against Michael. I do wonder why Strickler wanted Michael to admit to this...

I think this series is beginning to remind me more and more of Three Days of the Condor (a movie that I highly recommend to all BN fans). It's the story of a spy who basically does research, not really hard core spy stuff like Michael Westen. But he gets caught up in the middle of something that makes him go on the run. He's got enemies coming at him from all angles - do these people want him dead because they're the enemy of the United States? Because they work in the shadows under the guise of the CIA? Are the people after him contracted hit men? And if so, who hired them - was it a double agent within the CIA, the CIA itself, or somebody else? It's all really fascinating to watch, because Robert Redford's character manages to make his way through this minefield without having had the benefit of serious spy in the field training. I don't want to ruin the ending for those who haven't yet seen it or don't want to be spoiled, so I will put this in spoiler quotes.


Anyway, I think in some ways that could be the way this ends for Michael. That at the end of the line maybe he *does* uncover all that there is that happened to him - and knowing Michael Westen the way I think I do, I *do* believe he will speak up and do and say the right thing. But really...when you think of all the sharks out there both apparently inside and outside the Agency (I believe there *are* double agents working against him from within, by the way) - then how far can he get? I think it may well be that he winds up being always on the outside looking in, unable to resolve this.

Just some more rambling thoughts, ha ha. Looking forward to hearing others' thoughts on all of this...

Phi that is so funny that you brought up Days of Condor because I kinda think the show is shadowing that movie more and more I can't wait to read everyones thoughts for the upcoming 2cd half of the season because I think the writers provided us with several instances of foreshadowing in this last episode don't you ??

Hmmm speculations, us?!?! NO way! Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I can safely say there's some new big, bad in town from the end of the last episode to the promos with the voice on the telephone. As to who this big, bad is I have no idea I kind of hope it's some other spy that's been "burned", kind of like Victor, but someone who is actually in charge and not some "management" or "government" type I think that might give the show a different angle, IMHO, someone who can't help Michael in any way but still can make his life a living hell. As to Michael and Fi, well they'll continue on being Michael and Fi in the way that they are "we are so not good at this!"

Great topic!

I think my big speculation/guess would have to be that Management (or some form of it) has heavily infiltrated the Government (and by Government, I mainly mean the one that deals with the Armed Forces and Spying) and are slowly outing/killing the good spies to counter the US. Throughout the last bit of season 2, Michael tells Fiona it's about patriotism and doing things for the American people. No greater slap in the face for Michael is to find out the same government (or what seems to be the government, is actually Management) is selling out their spies and that there is no longer that patriotism that he once thought he sold his life for. He'll ultimately be given the choice, work for the government outing it's own bodies or work with Management and control what happens.

I really felt something of this when I looked at everything that has happened thusfar. Realistically, if a spy was burned, there should be extensive and flawless investigation done -- none of that. If you are going to slay one of the best spies in the trade, you better make sure he did what he did, otherwise you just lost a powerful pawn. This really makes me believe someone higher or an invisible power is n this, something like the Illuminati or something of that extreme.

I think throughout this possibility, ultimately, I think we are going to lose either Sam, Madeline, or Nate. It had to be someone who means something. This season Fiona got her spotlight, I am willing to bet the next one is Sam or Madeline and by lose, I mean die. I love Sam Axe's calm, cool swagger, but logic dictates his humourousness can be replaced and possibly will.



I'm really into conspiracy theories and with the way Michael keeps preaching about patriotism, it's just screams conspiracy in the food chain!!

Yes, I felt like that final scene and voiceover was really sending out that Three Days of the Condor vibe...I mean, the thing about Condor was that there were so many "unknown unknowns" (haha, Donald Rumsfeld's nutty quote, but in this case it really does apply). It's the same for Michael. Who is to say that once he comes in from the cold of his burn notice, that the bad guy won't be waiting for him within the agency? I'm sure not everyone in the agency is bad, of course. But...I dunno. Look at a spy like Robert Hanssen. The FBI spent years trying to uncover who the mole was, who was compromising their intelligence assets in Russia. Who'd they put in charge of the investigation? None other than Robert Hanssen himself. I can totally see how that might be an angle on this - that there's a Management team in cahoots with a very high up person within the Agency. Hmmm...interesting.

FiRocks, that's also an interesting idea about it being another burned spy behind all of this. Maybe it's completely personal and never really had as much to do with Michael's work as it was about someone he really ticked off or maybe just someone with a serious ax to grind. I'm not sure... [btw, FiRocks, I've lost track of my iPhone again, ack!!!]

ETA: Namonaki, that's another interesting theory - that someone is trying to eliminate those spies who have integrity. Kinda like...Lex Luthor or some nemesis like that; someone who had a specific reason for wanting to remove those who couldn't be compromised. Hmmm...

So, today I am going to rent Three Days of the Condor...

I was wondering what I was going to do today!

they probably need to move on with the, "Michael want's to get back in", at any cost, story line. either put him in or out. maybe it's just me, but it's really starting to hurt, every time Michael sells out, SAM and Fi, for the sake of getting back in. it seems to be driving michael and fi further apart. i'm glad he finally put fi first, and they should continue on with it. geeze, we all know how much they love each other, so make it happen so we, all can be happy. it's always a bummer when that part comes up. does it hurt anyone else out there, besides me ?

Mhm, the best quote came from Strickler, of course paraphrased; "There is no truth in this business." There is nothing you can do if the people you are trying to prove yourself to is crooked itself. Michael wants to prove that he is good, loyal patriot to his country, but it is kind of hard to accomplish if this government is slowly being undermined and the faithful are being turned into the unfaithful.

I apologize in advanced for any grammatical or spelling errors, lol.

Good theory, but I really can't see them killing off any of the main cast members. I mean Nate didn't even get killed by Brennen, so I really can't see that happening. I could see them wounded maybe like Fi, but killed, no way.

ETA: Philippa, re: your phone, did you check next to the brown thing?

Since I'm not into "conspiracy theories" I tend to lean toward exactly the scenario Victor described in "Lesser Evil", that the core of the situation started with an off-the-books" operation and someone liked the power involved and wanted to continue it. My hope is that wherever the nest of traitors operates, within the Agency or outside, it *doesn't* impact the integrity of the Intelligence Service on the whole. Michael doesn't just "preach" about Patriotism, he practices what he preaches. I do believe there is a need for patriotic and dedicated operatives in Service of their Country.

And in no way do I think Sam can be replaced...well-crafted characters are not interchangeable widgets where you add a dollop of humor, a bit of swagger. Sam has shown himself to be a consummate professional, solid strategist, adept at the skills needed (consider how often he is the point-man when a sniper is needed). He may bluster and swagger, but he delivers! I honestly have no fear of it (anyone from USA who was half paying attention at ComicCon knows what Bruce brings to the mix), but even the idea of it, to me, flies in the face of logic. And to be honest, I have little respect for writers/showrunners who seem to equate drama with death. All of Team Westen should be maintained. They can put them in jeopardy in the future (as they have in the past), but no funerals please. Not Sam, Maddie or Nate!

Can I get an "amen!" Amen, sister, you preacher, me choir!

Did anyone notice the circular nature of the arc this season...and the use of, dare I say....foreshadowing...

Let me take you back to Friends and Family...
You, remember the speech Mike gave Harlan about being a patriot.

This is what is important to Mike. Name and rep is important, but so is being a patriot. It is who he is.

Now, Fi's speech to O'Neill, about being a patriot.

O'Neill thought he could sell Fi to regain a seat a the table...truth was not important. Being a patriot was not about truth. She screamed the truth at O'Neill and he couldn't take it. She knows a really patriot and she showed that this is important to her.

What I loved about that scene was how Fi so clearly distingished her beliefs. That speech in foyer about what happened to her and why she ran was so important. Mike and Fi are very much the same. He didn't just protect her out of love, he protected her out respect. Because he would have done the same thing. Sean stating Michael is and honest man, so important. All of this lead up to his decision to kill Strickler. In a way killing Strickler was metaphorical. Truth is important. Fi is truth. It is not my past, it is my present. I am not who I was.

We saw Fi the patriot in this one...she showed this to Michael. I think the idea Mike's patriot side will be tested again.

Sorry about the spelling...where is spell check when I need it!

Although it isn't so much speculation as it is an observation, I found it interesting that, to me, there has been a shift in the emphasis of Fi's background. We are given a more personal rather than ideological focus for her activities in Ireland and the involvement with O'Neill is founded as much through anger/misunderstanding as through political conviction. And actually, I found it interesting when Sam did obtain O'Neill's Interpol dossier it indicated a lack of firm connection to established IRA operations--that he was essentially rogue. While I don't think any of this affects the future it does serve as a filter for viewing the past. In that alone the episode ending the mid-season serves as a bit of a watershed

I never said Sam can be "replaced", but, I meant as in if you think of each character based on a genre, Sam is ultimately Humor. It's easiest to put in another comedian, than it is someone like Fiona or Madeline. Sam is my favorite character, he has never came up short in any scenes/scenarios, but I have a feeling with the way things are going, Sam will depart from the on-scene or die.

Although, I too would like no funerals, as much as they are nearly in-human in the way the conquer the opposition and save the day; they are not immortal. I think it would be naive to think there won't be any deaths that hit Team Westen. Maybe not in S3, but maybe later in S6/7.

MsSully, I'm so glad you put up this thread. We needed a place to put our "theories" without gunking up the episode and spoiler threads. If it wasn't for this thread, the new discussion for Ep. #10 would be 20 pages long before Christmas.

I have some thoughts on what's to come but they'll have to wait until after the dentist (ugh!).

Thanks, MsSully!

One of USA actors video has JD talking about his family and Mike's back story. He kind of mentions that the family back story might pop up in season 4. I wouldn't be surprised if Maddie was kidnapped or arrested. It sounds like the FiBBI are making her life difficult at the end of the winter season from Spoiler TV...

That is a good question, if you need to bring in Michael, what better way than to arrest the team.

I think that as long as the rating are good, there will be no changes...they are not going to mess with success...They may have to "jump the shark." in the later seasons...

Well, I appreciate the encouragement. I love to make guesses...I want to think of a way to keep track of some of the ideas...see if they come true or even better, get used!

Pardon me for misunderstanding when you wrote "I am willing to bet the next one is Sam or Madeline and by lose, I mean die. I love Sam Axe's calm, cool swagger, but logic dictates his humourousness can be replaced and possibly will." It seemed to me that you were saying he could be replaced

All I know is that Bruce Campbell has been quoted as saying he was in for the long haul, so I don't see him leaving voluntarily and the production would be stupid to eliminate the character wantonly

If this is accurate, thank goodness! Because today when I saw the promo again I heard the voice and thought it was the guy who played Stark, the bad guy on "Alias" and I thought "OH no, not again!" I mean I really, really enjoyed David Anders in the role but I didn't want to see him playing that kind of role again, you know?

i know what your saying. but i deffinitly think it's legit. i mean, Chris Vance is Biritish and the voice on the phone in the promo was British. i wonder if him and Fiona will get along.

I agree. No way that's going to happen. But I do wonder about the "wounded" thing. Somewhere (probably the episode discussion) someone mentioned that Fiona had been grazed by a bullet before jumping in the water. I've watched Long Way Back at least five times now and I didn't see it. Isn't it more likely that she got that gash on her arm from something in the water?

And I have another question. Right after Michael and Sam arrive at the boat house, plant the bomb in the boat and blow up the propane tank, there is a quick shot of a man putting something over his head and on his face. You don't see his face so I don't know who it was or what it was he was putting on but when you see all of O'Neill's men, no one is wearing anything on their head or over their face and neither is Michael or Sam. It's not important to the story but I am curious about it.

Made me look. The gun Michael is using is on a strap, and he puts the strap over his head and shoulder after they arrive and take out the propane tank. I think that's what you mean.

I'm looking forward to Larry making another appearance. He's my favorite guest character so far...

I think the guy on the end of pier shot her as she jumped in the water....

That's what dramama said too! It's not really that clear though. Dramama posted that in the episode discussion thread. But I still think it's very possible that she cut herself on something in the water. If you were the bad guy and Michael and Sam were shooting at you, would you shoot back at them or would you shoot Fiona, the "prize" you need to bring back to Ireland alive to cash in on the bounty?




BTW............I love this thread!

I definitely think Fi's wound is a gunshot graze. Let's face it, the writers likely wouldn't have her in a bandage for a scrape, nor would she have appeared to be in such pain over the wound if it was just a scratch. A bullet makes a lot more sense. (Perhaps it's wishful thinking, since I'd love to see the hard time Fi would give Michael/Sam if one of them grazed her when rescuing her. Though I'm guessing the accidental shot would have to be from Sam.)

So very very well put, Ms Sully!

Okay, a little thing of foreshadowing...when Diego called Michael in a panic talking about how he didn't realize that Mike had been working with Strickler...that there was a team coming in to "clean things up", I got a shiver down my spine, and not just for Diego. I couldn't place it at first, then I recalled MW's cover of Jackson, when he went to the BGDJ and said, "You never told me that Chuck Finley was involved with this. Just give me my money and let me get out of town. If the devil had a name, it'd be Chuck Finley." Michael had actually referred to Strickler as the devil when he went to make his deal with him (he would dance with him). It just was interesting that Team Westen's little play drama ended up happening for real, much to Diego's dismay. (Mine, too, for I really liked his character.)

ETA: We are so fortunate to see this level of writing on television!

Lots of foreshadowing, and that English voice on the phone sounds a bit like Julian Sands....

I still say Mike will need Victor to pull this off...... he is the only one that went through the
same training pipeline that Micheal will trust. Time for a little 'Zombie' action in the form of
Victor... hey, you could call it 'Dead Notice'... wait, Bruce already took that. And can't wait
to see what THAT turns out to be, too bad it can't come out on Halloween...

Please bring Victor back....

Butch and Sundance + one. They can all swim and aren't afraid of heights and we can all guess if they made it or not.

Nothing as much fun during a hiatus as a good, juicy speculation thread. Unleash the dogs of imagination!

I haven't read anyone's posts yet so as not to have my first impressions influenced. Here's what I came away with, based on the show alone:

a. I think Michael and Fiona's relationship will hit a point of stasis for a while. They've been up and down, and have said the "three little words" with deeds if not words (Michael darned near got 'em out, but MN will make us squirm a good bit longer before either does.) I think they'll go along exploring this new place where they find themselves, but won't be as up-and-down as before.

b. I think we have a few hints that Madeline will become an increasingly active member of "the team." She has shown first Sam and then Michael that she's very capable of not only taking care of herself, but possessed of a good bit of savvy and smarts she could bring to a client's case. The bingo match is just the beginning. (This, I love!) Moreover, Madeline taught Michael a dandy object lesson about what he might lose if he's not careful, and that doesn't mean just Fiona.

c. Sam was the only one who Michael might potentially have lost, but his "sometimes it's hard to be your friend" line suggests a crack may be forming in their relationship, and how much Michael asks of Sam might need to be explored before the back half of the season ends.

d. I don't think Michael's obsession with getting back in will abate much, although he'll be more respectful of the friends who surround him. I also suspect by season's end, Management will reappear in some fashion. We really know very little about them, whether Strickler was part of the group, and how they managed to get Michael burned. There's a lot of territory to explore there, and might conceivably be his storyline for S4.

Great topic Ms.Sully! I totally agree with your theory in that management has infiltrated the agency. However, I am leaning more towards thinking that the agency is using Michael as a scapegoat for the mistakes the agency has made. I do believe that the mission in Africa plays a critical role in why Micahel got burned because it was way too coincidental that of all the missions Michael has been involved with that this specific one was chosen. Strickler was very specific about what Michael had to say in order to get his old job back (even if he did decide to go along with Strickler who is to say that he truly would be working for the agency and not management?). I absolutely love reading the comments on this forum because you all are always bringing up perspectives that never occurred to me!

Regarding the spoiler I can’t wait to see that arc play out.

I am thinking that an option is that the agency uses Michael as a double agent...

A possibility....

I like the idea that MW was carefully chosen to infiltrate "management" and bring it down....without him even knowing that this is his new mission-
I didn't really get why Cowan was killed, he said the people who I work for have plans for you....much much bigger than us - so why would they need to shoot him? ?? Was he or wasn't he apart of 'management?'
So first Carla is taken out, then management says they have a 'job opening' to fill - next Strickler appears and is taken out - just wonder if he was they one who took her 'position' and how many more are lined up to do so now that he is gone.....

What fun this is -

Oooh, I didn't even think of that possibility! Another thought which I almost hate to say it is what if Management is portraying themselves to be the agency (like on Alias)?

How sad and terribly upsetting would that be for Michael to work so hard to get back in and then realize he was working for his enemy?

Hi there,

I have listed the titles for the second half of season three. One thing I have noticed is that the titles really do have some degree of foreshadowing...let the guessing and speculation begin!

I find it interesting that the CIA was slated to "review Michael's file". Michael has said that he never worked for any agency "directly" We'll see how that plays out. I always thought that Management was born from within some intelligence agency. Possibly an operation that required some level of deniability by the agency. Once they were able to pull that off, they continued that practice and eventually these "super super double secret operatives" were able to wield power within the intelligence community by threatening to out them if they didn't get their way, just another form of blackmail.

Sorry for the double post but I couldn't figure out how to add a quote by editing my last post and I was too lazy to delete it and retype it.

I think I posted this in the episode discussion thread but I've had to change my position on Fiona's injury. Looking very closely at the her wound when Michael puts her on the shore, it looks like a bullet hole in her arm. I didn't notice that before. When the bad guy took aim at her, he never actually gets that round off (it was probably left on the cutting room floor). You never see him actually fire his weapon or hear the shot. The next shot you hear is either Michael or Sam shooting one of the bad guys in the leg. That's what I based my original theory on but had to change that after looking at her arm

In that same thread I also wondered why these people never have to get a tetanus shot.


I like that theory. It fits in well with my Michael is secretly working for his former employer to destroy Management

You only need a tetanus booster every 10 years. I am sure that while Michael was still employed he was up to date for every vaccine under the sun.

Something occurred to me...

When Fi and Mike are in the kitchen, and Mike says she will be back to her old self in IRE. Fi responds by saying that she's not the same, she has changed because of living in Miami and the work she has done with Michael. I realized how true this is about him as well. He more than likely would have worked with Strickler, because he was use to working with devils. He has changed for the same reasons.

I think there is some major foreshadowing in that statement. He now has limits. His lines between good and evil are clear and drawn. If he had not done all of the work with all of the clients and with Sam and Fi, his lines would have been completely about the outcome of the job and good and evil. Now, the process is important.

Key becomes how and why does he realize this and what does he do about.

Now there's a thought Michael infiltrated management unknowingly.The Agency is infiltrated and no one can be trusted.I have the distinct feeling Michael is still under protection but the BN is part of his being deep undercover.Perhaps the agency is trying to flush out Manangement using Michael.Really stinks b/c he would have taken the job anyway.But the BN makes it believable and give Management's a reason to approach Michael. If this is the case, not in S4 but a little later, someone will reach out to Michael to give him the full truth. And by the way I don't buy the gun running, bomb making girlfriend angle. People's records are re-wrriten all the time.That's what Witness Protection is all about.Micheal could say she was an asset/informer.

HI everyone! OK does anyone know if the season 3.5 teaser promo is up anywhere else but on the main site? MovieWebs or Spoiler.TV maybe? Thanks for your help!

Hey Fi,

I am a little disappointed in USA not get up the promo on You Tube. They set up a fairly nice site and don't use it....

Here are some pics for Noble Causes....guesses???

My guess is below...

I wonder if Fi will help Sam pay for the Buick, given she kind of set it motion...I can see it.

I hope so! I feel bad for Sam because it seems like his car is always being "sacrificed." I wonder how understanding Ms. Reynolds is going to be...

This thread will probably one of the most popular threads on the forum during the break.

I decided to give it a bump so all the newcomers can find it easily.

Thanks again, MsSully for this thread. It's a great idea.

Hi,,,I agree this thread is a very good idea Thanks MsSully.....

Just throwing an idea out for rumination. When BN returns, will days or weeks or months have elapsed? If it is the "day after" then we shall see where Fi stays. Could Michael handle Sean and Fi in his place? would Madeline step up and keep Fi and Sean be MW's house guest? Or will weeks have gone by and Fi will have her own place and Sean will have departed for Ireland.

Would Fi still be in danger staying alone ? Maybe we will see a mafia type of hit the matresses we are under attack. Everyone hunkers down at one location?

I did notice in a promo for next season that Sam and MW are sitting at Maddy's dining table. So, maybe the S3 part 2 will take up where we left off.

It is kind of fun feeling like a child counting the days until Christmas !!