This does not bode well for a Mary and Marshall romance unless they find themselves trapped in the the eternal triangle.

I can see Mary making it up to the wedding and either not go down the aisle or say no when asked if she wanted Raph as her husband to love and ......yadda yadda yadda.


I don't think they'll kill off Raph. I think after being hurt like that, he'll just leave then.

I kinda of get the best of both worlds with Mary and Marshall and Mary and Raph. I love Mary and Marshall and can see them continue with the hints long down the road and even maybe having the series end with them 'together'. In the meantime though, I actually do love Mary with Raph too. I think they are really cute together. I think it will be very interesting to see Marshall's reaction to the engagement. Of course I really don't see the engagement lasting all that long. End of season maybe.

I can't remember, but have there been any scenes that included Raph and Marshall? I don't think I've seen them in the same scene, but I haven't watched every episode.

I can't remember, but have there been any scenes that included Raph and Marshall? I don't think I've seen them in the same scene, but I haven't watched every episode.

This does not bode well for a Mary and Marshall romance unless they find themselves trapped in the eternal triangle.

And I don't know, but I would guess that two Witsec marshals could NOT be married. Again I'm guessing, but if they were to become lovers, as soon as that became known to Stan or anyone over them, I would think they would have to go to different cities.

WitSec story-of-the-week:
Meh, didn't do that much for me. The Romeo & Juliet angle between the daughter and enemy's son seem contrived, which, as it turns out, was the reality since she was being totally played by the boyfriend's dad...and her being in the courtroom was a silly way to underscore that to the viewers. We're smarter than that. And didn't see the mother's adultery angle coming into play, either, but then how could we since we didn't find out about her being the intended target until the very end. Why didn't we get the info earlier? Makes me snarky.

Mary & Rafe:
A total mistake and I am not an M/M shipper. He didn't step up to the plate and tell his Mother the truth and by the time Mary made it to the dinner I was still thinking (okay, hoping) the whole engagement thing would just implode. Why? For the past year Rafe was going thru major life crises about his medical issues impacting his baseball career, all while trying to cultivate a relationship with Mary and she apparently was totally oblivious to it all....huh? So now they are both suddenly capable of an enlightened level of communication completely lacking up to now? Color me skeptical.

And here's the clincher. In the heat of their impassioned discussion about commitment, Mary says to Rafe:

"I am NOT afraid of commitment. It 's just that, with the possible exception of Marshall, I seem to be the only person on the planet who believes that you honor your commitments no matter what. And that you don't break a promise just because keeping it has become inconvenient."

M/M share an abiding relationship based on deep trust (and not necessarily one that could or even should evolve into something romantic.)... which seems very different from whatever Mary & Rafe have....just saying.

And here's the clincher. In the heat of their impassioned discussion about commitment, Mary says to Rafe:

"I am NOT afraid of commitment. It 's just that, with the possible exception of Marshall, I seem to be the only person on the planet who believes that you honor your commitments no matter what. And that you don't break a promise just because keeping it has become inconvenient."

Mary & Rafe:
A total mistake and I am not an M/M shipper. He didn't step up to the plate and tell his Mother the truth and by the time Mary made it to the dinner I was still thinking (okay, hoping) the whole engagement thing would just implode. Why? For the past year Rafe was going thru major life crises about his medical issues impacting his baseball career, all while trying to cultivate a relationship with Mary and she apparently was totally oblivious to it all....huh? So now they are both suddenly capable of an enlightened level of communication completely lacking up to now? Color me skeptical.

And here's the clincher. In the heat of their impassioned discussion about commitment, Mary says to Rafe:

"I am NOT afraid of commitment. It 's just that, with the possible exception of Marshall, I seem to be the only person on the planet who believes that you honor your commitments no matter what. And that you don't break a promise just because keeping it has become inconvenient."

M/M share an abiding relationship based on deep trust (and not necessarily one that could or even should evolve into something romantic.)... which seems very different from whatever Mary & Rafe have....just saying.

A good point. However, Raph's action's precluded any real consideration of Mary's feelings....to protect her? from what, exactly? Mary is obviously the type of woman who requires an upfront and open relationship based on trust. And if Raph is operating independently in the background, making important decisions but keeping all that from Mary....okay, maybe that's part of his culltural upbringing, but that doesn't hold water with Mary and he knows it....so why did he do it? Basia77 correctly observed that "Mary is not the type of person who appreciates someone lying to her just to spare her feelings." Sure, Mary is prickly and edgy and speaks her mind and is generally not the easiest person to be around much of the time....but even after Raph described her "as the most difficult woman I know," he went on to say he also knows he wants to spend the rest of his life with her. So he knows what he's getting into, yet.....

While it would have been convenient to accept his explanation that he just didn't have the heart to tell his Mother out of fear she wouldn't like Mary.....sorry, no. That fits into his belief pattern that women can't handle the truth, which grossly underestimates them. His mother seemed wise in the ways of the heart, so why didn't he think she would understand the difficulties of his relationship with Mary? I daresay she could have imparted some really sound advice on the subject, rather than his assumption that she would go straight to disliking Mary.

I'm just offended by of the whole "I'm keeping important information from you because I don't think you can handle it " defense of his actions. That is patronizing.




Not sure I totally agree with your assessment that Raph was merely "going-with-the-Mary-flow" up to now. He's been doing a LOT of passive/aggressive behaviors....making big decisions that ultimately affected both of them and the possible course of their relationship without telling her. I think Mary was completely correct in assessing the Mother's visit and engagement dinner as Raph's attempt into getting her to accept his proposal after his first attempt was a dismal failure.

That being said, of course you are right about any relationship requiring work....that IS the point. If it's not worth the effort, why bother? Mary's admission of the nature of her job to him in the next ep....definitely an interesting development in their relationship. And tho I agree with you that their past mistakes shouldn't necessarily prevent them from working through their issues and establishing a working foundation for an on-going relationship, and would love to believe that their newly-found level of opening up and communicating will ease them over the big speed bumps of the past year (see, I'm not a total cynic), right now it seems they still lack that fundamental trust and I question their ability to rise to the challenge of acheiving it. I think they both genuinely want to try to make their relationship work, but they both have big issues to deal with, and only time will tell how this will ultimately play out.

Her work life is a part of her life he can never break into because of its secrecy. I can see that fueling jealousy and suspicion.

We found out last season that Mary had been married once before. Wouldn't it be wild to get a look at that guy? Don't you just wonder what he must have been like—what that relationship must have been like?

I can't remember exactly how long the marriage lasted, but Mary has been there before. It is not as if she is going into this Raph-marriage-thing as a rookie. She KNOWS what she is getting into. Somehow, when it comes to marriage, I don't think Mary could be coerced, blackmailed, or pressured into doing anything she didn't really want to do.

Mary got married at 16 and in that episode she said that she had it annulled after a month. It was basically implied that she got married to get out of the house and away from her family. And since it only lasted a month (and she was still a kid when she did it), she's not exactly a pro at the marriage game.

I'm not entirely sure she knows what she's getting into - or at least she hasn't really thought about it or really processed it. She was shocked when Raph talked about moving in and starting a budget, when that is what normal people do when they get married. She hadn't allowed herself to think about that. And the whole scene where they were in the restaurant where Raph was laying out what he expected (and was completely right in doing so), Mary was pouting and fidgeting and just in general looked uncomfortable like Raph was suggesting they go get a root canal together without novacaine instead of building a life together.

Mary may improve and get into the game as she gets used to the idea (and now that she's told Raph about her work), but from what we've seen so far, she really hasn't allowed herself to process what getting married to Raph will really mean.

And the whole scene where they were in the restaurant where Raph was laying out what he expected (and was completely right in doing so), Mary was pouting and fidgeting and just in general looked uncomfortable like Raph was suggesting they go get a root canal together without novacaine instead of building a life together.

I stand by my "coerced…" remark.

Thanks.

I knew it was young, but I didn't remember it being THAT YOUNG. They have a legal age for voting, drinking, and buying cigarettes—but, I guess with marriage if you can see over the counter and sign your name....

I take back my "rookie" and "KNOWS" remarks", but I stand by my "coerced…" remark.

I hope I am not putting too fine a point on this discussion, but....

Coersion requires the use of force; anybody tried that on Mary, she'd kick their ass fifteen ways to Sunday. So I definitely agree with you.
Pressure and/or blackmail....again, an overt influence that Mary would readily recognize and be capable of defending herself against.

Manipulation, however, is accomplished through artful or shrewd use of influence, often self-serving....such as Raph's passive/agressive behaviors previously mentioned. And since Mary is susceptible to having (some of) her emotional buttons pushed, she's vunerable in this regard.

I think it is pretty easy to tell that rattling on is my "long suit". Not style. Not grammar. Not punctuation. Not spelling. Not sentence structure. Not word choice. I'm more of a "make your point" kinda person. I figure that if folks understand what I mean, no matter how I say it—then I'm ok.

I'm like 91% sure that regardless of the "true" meaning of the words I used, no one who read my post misunderstood my meaning. (It is minus the other 9% because there may be posters from other countries on the Board—and some words just don't translate well.)

But, you are right manipulation is a better word than coerce, blackmail or pressure (and it is the concept I was going for).

Seriously, dude. I didn't intend for my post to needlessly nitpick.....your posts are always quite articulate and your points well-made.....AND, in this instance we agree Mary can't be pushed into anything she doesn't want. I'm obviously stuck on the notion of Mary's vulnerability which, while I think this may be important, shouldn't digress into a vocabulary lesson. So, sorry about that....