So, we have this client comparison thread going and I started going back into my iTunes epis and I realized I was doing a bad guys comparison inadvertently. It may have gotten into my mind because of an article I read earlier today.

Here are mine.....so far...

The first bad guy I like was the drug lawyer, Bruce Gellman in Fight or Flight....such a s sleeze bag. I loved when Michael pulled out the knife and flatten his tire as a thank you for trying to kill him.

And Larry of course. Tim Matheson had so much fun in that role. I also like the spoiled, demented druggy step son in that epi...Drew...a long way from Home Improvement.

Brennan gave JD somebody to act against.

I think Larry and Brennan are far and away the best yet....

Good topic!! I find that I constantly talk about the villain when I am comparing the clients (as we all know--a good Disney flick isn't about the "Princess"--it's about the "Witch"!!!!!).

Gellman was great in Fight or Flight, but I really think the guy who "took a ride" was the villain-but , no worries! Larry and Brennen were equally nefarious--although Brennen was a more formidable opponent (IMHO) because he was the UNKNOWN.

Last night's Santora was a real pig--I hated him from the get go. And Concha was a "shark" to use Michael's phrase. I didn't mind seeing her go, although when she started her story with "when the Coast Guard found me..." I felt a little sympathy for her--but Ernie is my favorite client so--well, she had to go!

The father--not Ari--in Family Business--was a really scary dude. I wish he had been the main thrust of that episode (I know it wouldn't have worked, but he was the real interesting one in that family). His short scene with Fi was hysterical.

I could go on--Clarence Williams III--in Truth and Reconciliation--another diabolical Daddy. I guess I find the villain is always the most compelling.

This is a really, really good one, MsSully and nicely complements the Client Comparison thread.

And as DramaMama said so well "I find that I constantly talk about the villain when I am comparing the clients (as we all know--a good Disney flick isn't about the "Princess"--it's about the "Witch"!!!!!)."

Speaking of witches..............how about Evelyn? Never did like her, even when I didn't know she was a killer. I'll have to confess to being very sympathetic to Fiona's take on her, i.e., a mix of distrust, caution and jealousy. Even though Michael's "interest" in her story was primarily based on issues stemming from his childhood, I did not like her as a character but she is a very good actress.

I'm betting this thread will lead us to and yet another - that being a comparison of the strengths and weaknesses of both the client and the villain and how that shaped our opinion of the episode itself.

Li_Ann ITA with you about Evelyn--I never liked her. And I think I mentioned in the Client thread that I didn't understand Michael's immediate attraction to her (and yes it was attraction, when Fi is on the bed and Michael is looking at her--he is comparing her to Evelyn AND Fi is not coming out on top). Yeah yeah Oedipus Rex--I didn't care for it and I was thrilled when she pulled out her hand gun!

I do, however, LOVE Lucy Lawless.

And False Flag was a favorite of mine--Ben Watkins first script.

Concha from "Broken Rules" was very scary. I always remember that thing she said about wanting Michael to take out Ernie's entire family, as she didn't want to deal with inheritance/estate stuff. *scared look* There's a very slight, very subtle shift in Michael's face, where you can see how he's trying to hide his revulsion for her. It's a really creepy moment, I think.

I also liked Carmello from "Loose Ends" (the second biggest drug dealer in Miami). He was onscreen for such a short amount of time, but he made a big impression on me. Perhaps it was because of Barry's fear that things would turn into a "face down in the river type of situation" should word ever get back to the powers that be that he was the one who gave Michael the tip-off. Or maybe it was just because of the menacing way he told Michael when all was said and done that if they *ever* crossed paths again he would kill him. Maybe it was the fact that he was clearly a sophisticated drug dealer, drinking cristal and hanging out in the VIP area. He was fascinating to me.

I agree with those who found Ari's father a disturbing nemesis. He was so good at his job as he was a former Mossad operative. It was pretty creepy how he was able to make his escape from the city without anyone being the wiser. Yikes...

I have to say that my favorite bad guy is "Undead Larry." That was quite a tour de force performance that Tim Matheson turned in for "Double Booked." I was just thinking about the scene where he's asking Michael why he didn't take him out when he had the shot. Michael insists that he didn't have it - but Larry knew better. He could sense the weak link in Michael's armor - that he wasn't willing to kill him in cold blood - and he let Michael know it. Michael looked so completely rattled by his interaction with Larry. It was creepily profound to hear him say as he shuffled off to Buffalo, "hey -- some people live, some people die. See you around, kid." Eek!!! *hands to face*

There really have been a lot of good bad guys on this show, so this one's a tough call. Interesting thread, MsSully - will be back after pondering this some more...

Phi---Loved that moment between Concha and Michael!! She really made him sick.

I, also, loved Carmello--again, screen time isn't always that important (There are no small parts, only small actors.), he was compelling in a very short scene.

I'm betting we see "Undead Larry" in a future episode. Tim Matheson is both a good director for BN and a really good bad guy as well.

Thanks for starting this thread MsSully and here I though I was going to make a break from the computer today, but this very interesting thread topic lured me back in!

Oh! Villains!
My favorite ones are the ones from Michael's world – former associates, spys & assassins. Like duct tape, they make Micheal smart. He has to maneuver a bit more to outwit them, since they come from similar backgrounds & skills. And they're not always necessarily the main villains (doing harm to the client) of the episode, sometimes they're just secondary villain out to get Micheal – pure & simple – and that's always fun!

My favorites –
1. Old Friends - Jan the Czech Assassin!
Ya'll know he's my favorite! Jan was the more sympathetic, slightly-bumbling assassin – I mean, geesh – they duel in the bar, in the hotel hallway, outside Michael's loft – Jan just can't finish him! And then to be done in by peanut-laced hotdogs of all things – poor guy! It was a great balance of fun + foe, a trademark of what makes BN so BN, methinks.

2. Hard Bargain - Perry "Garrote" Clark.
Perry the Underestimator, pretending to be Philip Cowan, was just plain slick – trying to do Micheal in with that garrote. I love that he *almost* succeeded – it was such a superb fight. He showed us our hero has weak spots too.

3. Drop Dead/Loose Ends – Richard Schiff as "will the real Philip Cowan please stand up." Basically he was like the phone voice in the Scream movies – just torturing Micheal with meanacing phone calls – until he finally shows up & makes Mikey run up miles of parking garage ramps. Love it!

4. False Flag - Evelyn did double duty as client & the Assassin. She was cunning & manipulative. Even though her target wasn't Micheal, she enjoyed toying with him & was a good adversary.

5. Double Booked - Tim Matheson as Larry Sizemore - *chills* he was just plain mean! Again, Micheal wasn't his target, but he sured messed with him.

6. Michael Shanks as Victor & Alex Carter as Agent Bly - our redemptive villains – they start out picking on Micheal… and later end up becoming clients/needing Michael's help.


That being said, I think my favorite client-related villains are:
1. Concha from Broken Rules – I agree with you Phi – she was scary. She & Evelyn are two of my fave women villains. Just strong & bull-dozing towards destruction (even their own).
2. Ivan Evanov from Comrades, the Russian mafia guy. I just thought his scenes with Micheal & with Sam were great.
3. Bad Breaks – lead bank robber Prescott was foiled by Mike & the gang at every turn – another good example of fun & foe. Loved it (also, cuz actor Mark Sheppard rocks).

Oh! Good one, dramamama – I would love to see Ari's father from Family Business again – he was great as a baddie!

okay the longer I sit here thinking about this, the longer my list gets! done now!

I think one of the reasons Perry "Garrote" Clark ("Hard Bargain") is one of my favorites is because he was so played against type. He's a little cubicle monkey with his briefcase and the sweaty face in the Miami heat but he's the one who almost gets the jump on Michael. The change in his facial expression and physicality when he went from from meek bureaucrat to homicidal assassin was great. Arye Gross has been on a lot of the tv dramas since the mid-90's; "He tends to turn minor supporting roles into perfect studies in human frailty, strength, passsion, averice(sic) or anything else demanded by the role." (anonymous- IMDB). He just did a wonderful job.

One of my favorite actors. He was in a movie about three brothers driving a car to Florida for their mother's birthday--Alan Arkin played the dad, with Daniel Stern as the older brother and a YOUNG Patrick Dempsey as the youngest--can't remember the name of the flick at the moment ?Cadillac something or other, I don't know? He was great. And I loved him as Perry Clark.

Coupe de Ville

I thought that last scene with Perry Clarke (when he's trying to garrote Michael) was one of the best choreographed moments I've ever seen on television. I agree, he played against type - and yet he was so entirely believable as an assassin once that final scene with him began. He came across as menacing and ruthless; I totally understood why Michael wheezed, "Wow, you're pretty good." What a great scene - and a great bad guy indeed.

Just as the true test of the hero/heroine character is the admiration and emotional attachment we feel for them, the same holds true for the "bad guys". A great villain is one we can really hate for all the right reasons. Some of Burn Notice's villains were truly scary types, i.e., murderers, kidnappers, drug dealers, etc. The one I think I hated the most was Rachael from Do No Harm. Her crimes against children and their suffering parents were unforgivable. As emotionally attached as Fiona gets from time to time to a particular client/job for various reasons, she always holds it together while they're working their counter-con. Always, except once (that I can remember). While she was making an effort to reel in Rachael, Rachael's comment about terminally ill children and their families paying for her house just pushed her over the edge. I just loved it when Fiona lost it and punched her in the face.

Thank You!

That is really good point. I think that is why Michael doesn't lose it with Fi on the steps. He's angry, but he probably would have done the samething.

I wonder why I didn't think about her earlier. Maybe it's because there have been more male villains than females. But then again, Evelyn was the one that popped into my head and the one I mentioned here. For some reason while reading this thread today, I thought about Rachael. She was more than a baddy. She was a monster to take advantage of those families.

While wandering around the forum today, I stumbled upon MsSully's Bad Guy Thread. Ever since Michael made Fiona cry, we've focused on little else. Beating up on the bad guys might alleviate some of our angst about that relationship, if only for a moment.

Shannon in Signals and Codes was an excellent villian. She was cold, calculating and ruthless. I loved when her assistant said "you are my hero". She sold out her countrymen for financial gain and obviously didn't lose a minute's sleep over it. She had Brad killed and ordered a hit on Spencer as well and never even blinked. That is one cold lady! We didn't see a bit of emotion on her face until Michael left her handcuffed waiting for the authorities to take her into custody.

It looks like this week's episode will have former adversaries hunting Michael through the Everglades. I'm glad the writers are including some backstory this season. We should get a better understanding of both Michael and Fiona's past lives in the upcoming episodes.

Thanks for the bump--this is a fun thread.

Shannon, was indeed, a cold and horrible human being. I was surprised that MIchael was so controlled in this situation. People killing "spies"--that should have really "burned" (couldn't resist--I, totally apologize ) him.
But, as someone far superior to me already opined, he was off fixing his BN and leaving the real spy biz to Fi and Sam when Spencer was in danger. Any hoo--Shannon was awful and I'm with Sam--there's something wrong in the world when you plead traitors and don't hang them.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Gerard (Max Martini) from "Rough Seas". A total sociopath. Nothing charming or endearing about this guy. My favorite villian, without a doubt, is Undead Larry. I hope Mr. Matheson steps in front of the camera again real soon. Brennan is 2nd. I liked Jay Karnes on The Shield as the brainy Det. Holland "Dutch" Waganbach. I like to think that Brennan would have been Dutch if he went bad.

It seems that the female villians stick out in my mind. I guess I expect women to be more compassionate but that's not the case. I absolutely hated Rachael, Evelyn, Conchetta (Concha) and Shannon. They were all cold and ruthless.

What I find interesting?--NONE of those ladies is going to make a return appearance! Rachel is gone for a long time as is Shannon and well, Evelyn and Concha--they're just GONE!!!

We've been neglecting our "bad guys" lately. Bump!

We've had two episodes without beating up on the bad guys.

I wish I knew what Michael blew up to make Chechnik (sp?) so mad. Although he did spend 10 years in a Russian prison. That would make anyone mad.

And our abusive father/stepfather this week......That really hit home with Michael and punching him repeatedly wasn't necessary but totally unavoidable for Michael Westen. Even Madeline got in on the act with her comment "For two little boys who are being knocked around by their father, Michael would take on the Chinese army, honey".

And the anger wouldn't be complete without Fiona talking about him leaving town before the custody hearing "Oh, he will because if he doesn't I'm going to take a claw hammer to his....."