I just seen an interview clip from the begining of season 10 that I hadn't seen before of Mariska and in it she describes Olivia as "Maniacal" and how Obsessive Olivia is, so my question is and i'm sorry if this has been discuseed before I searched, but couldn't find anything, but why is Olivia so Obsessive to the point where she will do anything to get justice for a victim. I always thought it had something to do with mother being raped, and her being the product of that rape, but I can't help but feel like there is more to it than that.

I don't know that there is an answer to that. I think it's more of an opinion-based question. I agree that it's partly due to her background and her mother being a victim. She always wants to get justice for the victim. Her mother never got justice. She always talks about justice. I think Elliot is more interested in punishing the bad guy than justice. They all have different backgrounds and reasons for being cops.

I also think it's just Olivia's character. She wants to help people. Even people who aren't rape victims. In an episode that I think is called Starved but I'm not entirely sure, she tries to help a rapist's girlfriend. The girlfriend is an alcoholic and a bulimic and Olivia tries to get her into rehab. I don't view that as having anything to do with getting justice or protecting the victim--it's more just wanting to help people.

I agree with what was said in the interview--she is obsessive, more so than the others. In an episode that I think is called Abuse or Abused or something, Cragen orders her to back off and the family gets a restraining order against her but she just can't let it go...she's too obsessed. There are times when victims do not want to talk to her, but she doesn't let it go. A good example of this is the episode where an informant in a radical environmental group is raped and Olivia steals her underwear so she can get evidence even though the girl clearly wants to be left alone. She breaks rules a lot because she's so obsessive.

Thanks, and I agree with what Mariska said in the interview too cause I think you have to be a little maniacal to be willing to put yourself in an unsafe position like she did in Undercover, but thats also part of why she is my favorite charater too cause she will do whatever it takes to bring a perp to justice at any cost

I love that interview with Mariska because that is how I see her character, and I've seen it for awhile now. So without getting too clinical on different theories of human behavior, and based on my observations of Liv, here's my take on Olivia...

First off, I think that her pushing herself the way she does is a combination of factors that stem from 1.) her relationship or lack of one with her mother, and 2.) the truth about her conception. You can't really separate the two because in my opinion, Olivia's relationship with her mother was the way it was because Serena didn't know how to cope with her rape, and she didn't know how to see Olivia as being anything more than the product of her rape. She never really was able to get past that, and in an effort to deal with it, like many survivors, she turned to heavy drinking. As a result, Olivia didn't have that parental figure in her life, and so never learned to develop a healthy attachment to other individuals.

In terms of parenting styles, Serena would have probably fallen under what is termed "neglectful"--this parenting style is associated with children who later demonstrate low self-esteem and poor self-control, and who are immature and socially incompetent. Before you disagree with me, I think this is actually a pretty accurate assessment of Liv. Despite being very confident in her job, she does have a very low self-esteem, just not in the traditional sense that most people do. She doesn't think that she is worthy of being loved. She doesn't expect anyone to take care of her. It's not a superficial self-esteem issue--it's much more deep-rooted than that. She may be able to exercise self-control in some aspects, but when it comes to doing what is expected of her (i.e. following Cragen's orders even if she disagrees with them), any sense of self-control is out the window. And as much as I wouldn't initially think of her as immature, in a way she is because she hasn't had the opportunity to develop social ties and relationships with others. And she doesn't know how to handle that. And this ties back in with the fact that she's never had a healthy relationship with another human being. She doesn't expect that of anyone, and she's afraid to let herself have that.

Olivia has never figured out how to develop a relationship with another individual, so instead she's developed a relationship with her job. She'll date on occasion, but she lets her life at work dictate any and all relationships and allows work to interfere when she's not ready to commit. She's been somewhat promiscuous in the past as a way to satisfy her physical needs without developing an emotional attachment to others that will interfere with her relationship with her job. The only people she feels like she can have relationships with are those associated with her job because it doesn't interfere with the primary relationship in her life (i.e. her job). She'll allow herself a relationship with victims she's helped in the past, but she becomes overly involved in their lives and she blames herself when they have problems healing.

She has major control issues. She has never been able to control any relationships in her life so she clings to her control over her job. She'll let the rest of the squad in because doing so helps her to succeed at her job, but she has very clear cut boundaries on what is and is not allowed. She has the most to lose with Elliot or Cragen--Elliot because he's the only one she's really allowed herself to open up to, and Cragen because he has the ability to take everything away from her. She'll let Fin closer than most because she knows he'll never force her to do anything she's not ready for. She's afraid to let Munch in because he might see her as weak. She keeps Huang at a distance because she's afraid that he might see something within her she's not ready to confront. She's afraid to develop a friendship with any females (i.e. Casey, Kim, Melinda) because the last time she did, she lost everything (i.e. Alex went into witness protection).

Because so much of her identity is tied to her job, she lets herself become too emotionally invested in each case and she blames herself when things go wrong. She turns all of that inward and punishes herself for it. She will do anything it takes to close a case regardless of what it means to her, or what it does to her. She has no qualms about putting herself in danger. She basically looks at it as her job is the only thing that means anything to her. She doesn't think about other people because she has problems accepting that they might actually care if something happens to her. She's only concerned about what happens to the victims, and she completely and recklessly disregards all sense of her own safety in order to find justice for the victim. It's kind of sad, but I don't think she really thinks anyone would miss her if something happened to her on the job. She looks at it in the sense that she has no family or significant other that she would be leaving behind if something happened to her. Her life is irrelevant if she doesn't have her job. And to be honest, if she left the show, I could see it being because something happened to her on the job. If she couldn't work and couldn't do her job, I think there's a very strong likelihood, you would see her expressing suicidal ideations because she doesn't know who she is without the job. It is literally her identity.

She clings to everything she has, but when it comes to a point where she's at risk of losing something, she would rather be the one to push it away because then she's still in control over the situation (i.e. Oregon). She's headstrong, aggressive, manipulative, and strong-willed because those are the things that help her overshadow her weaknesses. She's afraid to let others see that, she's afraid for them to see she's vulnerable because to admit she's vulnerable means admitting that she's not strong enough to handle everything they deal with every day. And admitting she's not strong enough to handle it is the equivalent of losing the only safe thing in her life (her job).

wow thats some great insight, and I thought this was interesting:


I never thought of her relationship with Munch like that-interesting, and this part here:



I totatlly agree with you on this, i've always felt that that is why she doesn't seem to care if something happens to her or not

WOW. That is a brilliant assesment of Olivia. Some of what you said I've seen, and others I've never really noticed. I don't know what you do for a living, but I think you would make a very good shrink. (I don't know how to spell the technical term. LOL)

In Payback, the only episode Serena was in it did appear that Serena did love Olivia, she appeared not to regret Olivia's birth, glad to have her despite what happened to her. They did look close there. But now, after 10 years of getting glimpses of Olivia's memories about her mother, perhaps the scene in Payback was denial or she was blind about it until her mother did die and Olivia could have reflected her past with her mother and realized that it sucked. I do think Serena did love Olivia but also hated her too because of the fact that Olivia was conceived by rape rather then a loving relationship or even an one night stand. Of course it did affected Olivia, she's innocent and couldn't help by being sprung to life by that horrid event.

I don't agree. TIIC changed Liv's relationship with her mother. Liv and her mother were well adjusted and close in payback. On top of this, they were having drinks together, so if Liv struggled with her mother's alcohol abuse, there is no way she would have been drinking with her. Some moron got it in his head that Liv needed to be a reason to be tough and distant. It couldn't be that she was just a tough chick, no Liv needed demons with her mother. Being the product of rape was more than sufficient, so there was no reason to change the relationship with her mother.

What idiots!


ANDREA

That was beyond brilliant. I was in awe reading it...

Arabesque, if you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living?


ANDREA

Olivia's relationship with Munch is interesting. He tries to take care of her in little ways (offering to give her a lift home in Stalked, trying to get additional info on Serena's case, etc.). And every time he makes that effort, she holds him at arms length and she tries to pretend that nothing has changed or that she's fine. She doesn't want to allow him in because then he might realize that she is effected by these things. It's easier for her to pretend she's not than to deal with others seeing that vulnerability within her.




Thank you. You'd never believe what I do if I told you...I'm actually a retired dancer and dance teacher who does occasional free-lance work in lighting design. But I'm working on a career transition and getting my master's in dance therapy and my mental health counseling certification. However, prior to beginning my volunteer work as a hospital and law enforcement advocate, I spent about 70 hours in crisis intervention training (in fact I just got back from a continuing education class tonight). I also help out with as many community education events as I can and am usually called in to speak to the new training classes about what to expect and how to handle the things that come up on our runs. But I've taken a couple of human behavior courses and I have spent a lot of time studying and reading up on my own. And now...back to the paper I'm writing on children services and cases of child abuse (doesn't that sound like an exciting night).

Serena was never physically abusive to Olivia (with the exception of the one time in Intoxicated where Olivia talks about her coming at her with "the jagged edge of the bottle"). In fact, at one point, Olivia even says, "abuse doesn't have to by physical to cause damage." As far as the scene in Payback, clearly Serena loved her daughter. But that doesn't mean she was able to accept her and not look at her as the product of her rape, particularly when Olivia was very young. Attachment between a mother and her child takes place when the child is an infant. That would be at a time when Serena's rape was very fresh and very difficult for her to deal with. Her inability to do so would have a strong effect on the formation of Olivia's personality and her temperament which probably would have made Olivia a pretty difficult baby/child to deal with.

We don't know if Serena was drinking throughout her pregnancy with Liv or if she started after she was born because she couldn't handle being a mother to her rapist's baby. Sexual assault/rape survivors are 13x more likely to have two or more alcohol related problems. And those problems probably meant that Olivia learned to take care of herself from a very early age. She learned to take care of her mother from an early age. She could have rebelled against her mother--acted out or turned angry, but she never did, and I think that's because Serena was all Liv ever had. She loved her because she didn't know anything else, and she still doesn't know or expect anything more than what Serena had given her. I'm sure Serena had her moments where she really loved and took care of Liv--that's what Payback was. But those moments were broken up between drunken episodes where Liv had no choice but to learn to take care of her mother.

First off, I thought your entire post was very interesting. And, I agree with what someone else said--you should be a shrink! : )

I particularly thought the part of your post that I quoted was interesting. I've always thought Olivia had a ridiculously hard time following orders and it was amazing she didn't get fired. Sometimes she really is out of control. Don't get me wrong, I like her and would not want her to get fired. But, she flat out disobeys Cragen relatively often compared to all the others. While I like her, it has always bugged me that she breaks rules but can be a complete hypocrite when it comes to other people doing the same. One episode that drives this home is PTSD. She is in a group therapy session where a rape victim says she carries a gun to protect herself. After the session ends, Olivia stops her, they argue a little, Olivia takes the gun and lectures her. In my opinion, Olivia overreacted. The woman was in the military. Therefore, she knows how to use a gun and is not likely to accidentally shoot someone or anything. She had been sexually assaulted, just like Olivia. Olivia of all people should understand. She was just trying to protect herself. Later in the episode, Olivia puts a gun to a suspect's head. Fin says something to her afterwards and she asks if he's going to report her. Olivia can go overboard enforcing the rules, but none of the rules apply to her. She was kind of insensitive to the woman when she took the gun, yet she expects Fin to understand that Olivia is having a hard time and needs to bend the rules. It struck me as really hypocritical.

Can I ask what your take is on Olivia's short-lived relationship with her brother, Simon? I thought that whole situation was interesting. She seemed desperate for family. And, initially, they seemed to form a quick, easy bond, which as you pointed out is unusual for Olivia. She doesn't have very healthy relationships and is slow to trust. Then, she was quick to turn on him when she believed he was a rapist. But, she still couldn't quite let it go and kept involving herself in his case. Finally, she cleared him and I thought they might have a relationship but we haven't seen him much since. This may be more the writers than Olivia. But, what do you think? Thanks!!

Thanks! Anyone want to tell that to MH ? God, what I wouldn't give to work for JHF...



Okay, for the record, this is far more interesting than my paper so I'm going to answer your question even though I really shouldn't right now...

Let's see--Olivia and Simon. I think her quick, easy bond with Simon is very superficial. I see it more as Olivia imitating what she thinks a sibling relationship should be like. She's has this preconceived notion of what it's like to have a family, and she's merely imitating that. There's no depth to the relationship--it's all on the surface, and that's why it was so easy for her to let it go (although personally I think TPTB need to bring him back to address this). But at the same time, that's why she feels obligated to stand up for Simon, to give him money when he's on the run. She thinks that a family is supposed to stand by each other, a family is supposed to support each other...yet, at the same time, she was really torn because those values conflicted with the one thing that she knows inside and out. When she thinks that there's a chance Simon might be guilty, she falls back on her defensive mechanisms and she uses intellectualization to create an emotional distance by rationalizing that he's the same as the rapists that she deals with every day.

arabesque I was wandering what your thoughts were on the Liv/Elliot friendship as it stands now cause to me it seems as if this season Liv has distanced herself from Elliot, and part of that I think maybe has to do with what happened at Sealview cause back in the summer I read an article online about PTSD and it said that survivors shut people out, or push them away that they are close to, but anywho I was just wandering what your thoughts were

You’re going to make me give you a sneak peak on part of the next chapter of Falling by asking that one…lol. Okay, so Olivia and Elliot’s relationship season 10. First of all, Elliot is the only person that Olivia will let get close to her. Now IMO, this openness in their relationship initiated out of pure necessity. Olivia’s job is the most important thing in her life. In order to do her job to the best of her ability, she has to rely on Elliot, she has to let him in, and she has to be able to trust and communicate with him without speaking. Everything else is what came out of that.

Olivia hasn’t told Elliot about Sealview for 2 reasons: 1.) self preservation, and 2.) to protect him. In terms of self-presentation, Olivia is really struggling with feelings of shame and self-doubt. She’s finding herself in a place where she realizes that she’s no different from every victim they’ve ever worked with. And she’s always held herself above that. She’s always thought that she’s somehow better than them. Now she’s finding out that she’s not, and she can’t stop herself from feeling all of the effects of a sexual assault, even though rationally, she knows they’re wrong. She “knows” it’s not her fault, but she still feels like it is. She “knows” that it’s natural to feel “helpless”, but she’s ashamed of feeling that. That is a really tough thing for her to come to terms with because it makes her feel weak and vulnerable.

She doesn’t want to be seen as a “victim” because that word holds so many connotations to her. She wants to pretend that things are the same way as they were before, and she doesn’t want anyone to treat her any different. She knows that when they find out, they will. Look at how they react anytime they’re involved with a case that reminds her of her mother, or her conception. They treat her with kid gloves. She doesn’t want that. She doesn’t want to admit that what happened has changed how she looks at her job. She doesn’t want anyone to think that she’s not as competent as she was before the assault. So she pushes them away.

What she doesn’t see yet is the strength that comes from accepting those emotions for what they are and pushing past them. And as a result, she feels threatened; she feels like if she admits that she’s struggling, she might be at risk of losing her job. And her job is everything to her—without it, she doesn’t know who she is. And all of a sudden, her job feels completely new to her because she’s experiencing things on a different level and in a different way than she ever has before, and she hasn’t figured out how to accept that.

In terms of protecting Elliot, I may not be a shipper, but I really think that Olivia loves Elliot in her own way. She would do anything to keep from hurting him. And she knows full well that when he finds out what happened, he’s going to be hurting. She knows that he’s going to blame himself, and she knows that he’s going to want to fix things. And that’s why she’s afraid to tell him. Because she knows that it’s not his fault, and she knows that he can’t fix what happened. It’s “unfixable”. She’s unfixable. She looks at herself as being permanently scarred by what happened and no matter how much she tries to fight it, she can’t get back to where she was before. She doesn’t want Elliot to feel that burden of not being able to bring her back to that place.

I love reading your take on things......if you don't mind me asking, what's your take on the Stabler marriage? Is there really a chance for them or are they more than likely going to crash and burn? Is Kathy being to insisitive to his job and how much his job means to him? and Do you think Eli is most likely Elliot's or not?

I personally really like Kathy, but I don't think that Elliot and Kathy are compatible, and while I admire their noble intentions for wanting to work things out, I think they would both be happier if they separated for good. But that's a pretty personal decision that nobody can force. It's a matter of whether or not they do what they think is "right" or they do what they think is "best for them". They're both Catholic, and regardless of how they feel, they might go with the "right" thing to do by the church's standards than the "right" thing to do for their own happiness.

First of all, Kathy wants somebody who is home more often. That is not something that goes well with Elliot's job, and that's really difficult for her to understand. Some people can do it--others can't. As independent as she is, Kathy has the type of personality where she wants to be taken care of, and while Elliot is the type of person to take care of others, he's too busy taking care of everyone at work to be able to do the same for her. I don't think that is insensitive of Kathy; it's just a matter of different priorities. And Kathy's needs and Elliot's don't match up here.

But personally I think the biggest problem with the Stabler marriage is communication. Elliot does not talk to Kathy, and this is why I think she needs to leave the marriage for her own good. A marriage is something that takes two people to work, and a vital part of doing so is knowing how to talk to one another and being able to share things with each other. Elliot doesn't do that--he tries to shelter her from his work, and the result of that is a closeness with Olivia that is not healthy for his marriage, and a breakdown in communication within the marriage. Elliot will share his thoughts and feelings with Olivia, and what happens is he works through those with her, and he doesn't have the energy left to share those same things with his wife. That's a big problem, and I don't blame Kathy for being jealous in the least bit. Because the truth of the matter is, Elliot lets Olivia see a part of him that should be reserved for his wife. And I understand why he does that (because it takes someone who deals with what they do to really understand it), but it's not at all conducive to a healthy marriage.

As far as Eli--it could go either way. There's nothing concrete to support either side. The writers have carefully worked that in so it could be Elliot's, or it could not be. Only time will tell...

First off thanks for all your great insight arabesque and you know after reading the part I quoted above, I don't think she will ever tell him, even though I think he deserves to know, but the only way I see him finding out is if someone tells him, or she has a flashback in front of him, and has no choice but to tell him

I agree--I don't think she will ever tell him.

But, I think he knows, or at least has some idea of what happened. I don't remember Undercover very well, so correct me if I'm wrong. But, Elliot knew Olivia was going undercover as a prisoner to catch a rapist who raped prisoners. Then, Elliot and Fin arrested the rapist. I believe they initially wanted to charge him with attacking a police officer (Olivia). I remember him fighting that, saying he did not know she was an officer at the time. I think they must have questioned him at the station. I imagine there were details of his attack on Olivia in a police report. I don't remember whether there was a trial or not, but if there was, Olivia probably would have testified. It just seems like Elliot would have to have some idea of what was going on--either from the charges against the guy, being in the station while he was being questioned, the police report, the trial, etc. Even if Elliot was not trying to find out what happened, which he was, he could have easily overheard part of the questioning or seen the police report just because he works in the same area. Also, didn't the rapist hit Olivia? I think Elliot would notice if she had a bruise or cut. He would know she got it while undercover. He's a detective...I think he can make an educated guess at what happened, though he might not know exactly how far it went.

Elliot understands Olivia better than anyone. He knows how she operates. He knows she is a private person. She doesn't share a lot of details about her private life. She doesn't like it when people worry about her or try t protect her--as we saw in Wrath and Stalked. Maybe he knows and as much as he wants to be there for her, he understands that she does not want to talk about it and does not want him worrying about her. He gave her an opportunity to talk by asking what happened. He's there if she decides she wants to talk. But, he knows she doesn't.

I really hope she does. Because as much as I understand her reasoning for not talking, she's never going to heal until she learns to talk about what happened. An important step toward recovery is the ability to admit what happened and to be able to talk through it. Olivia hasn't really been able to do that, and it's eating her up inside. She needs to find that place where she stops trying to protect Elliot because as much as she thinks she's helping him, she's really not. That's why I love their relationship. They both want to take care of each other in a way that is detrimental to themselves and inadvertently, each other. Because while I honestly don't think he knows anywhere near the full extent of what happened, he does know and sense something is off. And he can't move forward until he knows she's okay. And she can't move forward until she is able to express what happened and how it's effected her.

As far as how much Elliot knows, I think I've said this before. In my opinion, I think Elliot knows that Harris tried to rape her. And obviously he knows that there had been a physical struggle because she did have bruises (as did Harris). But, I really don't think he has any idea how far things went and how much it effected her. What I don't think Elliot realizes is that Fin wasn't there to stop Harris. He expects that Fin would have let things go far enough to give them a reason to charge Harris just like they've done in the past whenever they use Olivia as bait. And he knows that that's naturally going to effect her. But I don't think he realizes that she was alone with Harris long enough for things to really happen. He doesn't realize that she was ACTUALLY sexually assaulted. And that's a BIG difference. Had Olivia reported the assault, things would have been very different. And while we can't say for sure because TPTB kind of glossed over the whole thing and made it appear that the charges were dropped against Harris (in terms of what happened between him and Olivia), I really don't think an accurate report of what happened was ever written because Olivia was too traumatized to admit what happened, and Fin honestly didn't know.

IMHO, I believe Fin knew, but he does not push Olivia. One of the things I really love about OF is that they know and have the utmost respect for one another.

As for El, I am going to go with your post from the other day. How can she possibly tell the closest person to her in the world something like that? That cannot be easy.


ANDREA

You're right. It's not easy, and that's why I don't see her actually telling him. I see it slipping out because she gets to a point where she can't hold it in anymore. And then when she realizes she's let it slip, she panics because it's too late to take it back. And knowing Olivia, she'll run.

Arab your on a ball!!!!

Never has anyone analyzed Olivia like that (that I've seen) and it was on point.

She needs to talk about it to heal, but does she need to talk to Elliot? She is in therapy. Although we didn't see her talking about what happened very much, I have to assume she does. You don't go to group therapy and not talk at all. The psychologist leading the group seems to know what happened. I think she should tell Elliot. He is her best friend and knows her better than anyone. I think that puts him in a unique position to understand her and be able to help her in a way that's right for her. But, she can theoretically heal by talking to her psychologist. She doesn't necessarily need to tell Elliot.

You're right...Elliot may very well assume that Fin got to her before anything really happened, just enough to prosecute the guy. And, there is a big difference. I think Fin knows--he walked in when the guy's pants were unzipped and Olivia was bruised up and scared. He also acted like he knew and understood completely in PTSD when he saw that she was struggling. Fin doesn't strike me as the type to push people, though. He would help her with anything if she asked. But even if, say he knew exactly what happened and Olivia didn't want to charge the guy, I don't think he'd push it. He'd let her make the decision and quietly support her or help her whatever she chose. Elliot and Olivia tend to push rape victims to press charges...even if they do not want to. I can't remember Fin doing that. He seems to go by a policy of "live and let live," without interfering in others' lives.

Arabesque, thank you for agreeing with my post of several months ago that stated Olivia's problems were caused by her lack of self-esteem. It's nice to know that someone else figured it out. But I disagree with some of your points.
Olivia does have the symptoms of an attachment disorder. But to put the cause of that on Serena's neglectful parenting is a stretch. All the information we have about Serena comes from the one scene in Payback and statements by Olivia. On this subject, Olivia is not a reliable source. There were no problems with Serena until she died. Only then did Olivia say her mother was an alcoholic, which is the only evidence presented. Only then did Olivia say that her mother was distant with her, which is the only evidence presented. Only then did Olivia say that her mother was abusive, which is the only evidence presented. Basing an opinion solely on the testimony of one witness with an agenda of her own does not make sense.
Serena was likely between eighteen and her early twenties when Olivia was born. It would not have been easy in 1968 to have been a single mother. There is no indication that she had any family to help her. The fact that she worked in the college kitchen suggests she was in work-study and that she had no outside source of money.
Yet an unemployed college student on financial aid without family decided to keep the child conceived in her rape. If Serena only thought of her fetus as a product of her rape, why didn't she terminate the pregnancy? She would have had plenty of opportunities to do so in New York City even in 1968. But if we assume that Serena didn't have the money or had moral objections to abortion, why didn't she give the baby up for adoption when she was born? That would have left her free to go on with her life knowing that someone was going to raise a child that she couldn't love. But Serena chose to keep Olivia. The only reason I can for making that choice is that she saw Olivia as something good coming out of a bad situation.
But Serena's situation is likely to be the reason for Olivia having an attachment disorder as a child. She had to go to work to support her and the baby. If she wanted to keep her financial aid from Columbia, she probably had to go back to school. That means she had to leave Olivia with babysitters for long periods of time. And when she got home, she was too tired to play with Olivia if she was even awake. That's a more likely scenario why Olivia didn't bond with her mother. Or any other caretaker.
But Serena's lifestyle would have created another problem for Olivia. She would have developed a fear of abandonment. Her mother left her with other people for long periods of time. In a child's mind, the reason would be that the mother left because she didn't want to be with the child. Because the child isn't worth the mother's time. Yet another piece of the low self-esteem issue.
Now compound that with Olivia having no father when most of the other kids around her do have one. Olivia had to have asked where her father was. Serena certainly couldn't have told her the truth as a child. We know Olivia didn't find out the truth until she was older. She said her mother lied to her and this is almost certainly a time when Serena used a lie. But no matter what Serena said, Olivia would have felt abandoned by that father figure Serena created. If only she had better, he would have stayed. That self-esteem keeps sinking lower and lower.
The Olivia's worst nightmare happens. Her mother does abandon her by dieing. Olivia is mad at Serena for doing that which is normal. But Olivia can't express that even to herself. So she vents her anger by tearing Serena down. She twists every childhood memory into something Serena did wrong. Which fits right into that childhood attachment disorder again.
We don't know how Olivia behaved as a child but we can definitely see the behaviors of a child with an attachment disorder in her adult behavior. She does not trust. She has to be in control. She has no problem manipulating people and situations to get what she wants. She is possessive with things or people she believes are hers. She is unable to form meaningful relationships with people. And she sees the world as something that revolves around her.
This is why I will disagree that Olivia “lets herself become too emotionally invested in each case”. She is not emotionally invested in either the cases or the victims. She acts concerned about the victims and getting justice because it makes it easier to manipulate what's going on. She treats victims like they are her new best friends: “Here's my home phone number. Call me any time.”. That puts her in control of the victim and the case.
Olivia doesn't know she's doing this. It isn't a conscious choice. But she has probably been doing this her whole life. It is how she treats everyone now. It is how she is going to continue to treat people unless the therapist for her PTSD figures it out. And that is unfortunately unlikely.

Serena died leaving a bar drunk and falling. That is proof that she was a drunk and probably an alcoholic. Cragen is the one who said this, not Olivia. While it does not prove that she was a drunk when Olivia was little, I think it is likely that she was.

In Intoxicated (I think that's the episode name, could be wrong though), Olivia found out that a teenage girl and murder suspect may have killed her mother because the mother was an abusive alcoholic. Olivia then went to the house and knew exactly where to find all of the bottles of hidden alcohol. While not solid proof, this suggests that Olivia may have known where alcoholics hide their alcohol because she grew up with one.

Olivia also asked an attorney who specialized in child rights to help this girl. At one point in the episode, Casey asked Olivia how she knew the attorney. Olivia explained that the attorney had helped her deal with her mother when she was younger. The attorney made a comment to Olivia, something like "You remember what that was like, don't you?" when explaining that the girl had not told the police about her mother because she was embarrassed. The attorney clearly remembers Olivia dealing with an alcoholic mother. I think there are several reasons to believe that Serena was a drunk and probably not a very good mother.

Also, why would Olivia make all of this up? What would her agenda be? She doesn't like telling others about her past or her personal life. She didn't tell very many people that she was a child of rape at first. Munch did not know until Elliot told him. Then he asked Olivia who else knew and she said only Elliot and Cragen. She doesn't like having people feel bad for her or worry about her. She's shown this in Stalked and Wrath, when people thought she was in danger and were trying to look out for her. I could imagine an attention-seeking person who wants people to feel sorry for them making something like this up, but that's not Olivia in my opinion.

A lot of mothers leave their children in day care or with babysitters. Most of these children don't end up with abandonment issues. I do agree that the absence of her father played a big role in Olivia's issues. She probably felt abandoned by him. But, I think the other issues she had with Serena were real.

I don't think Olivia is possessive at all. I think if she were possessive, she would be very possessive of Elliot and in my opinion she is not. She doesn't mind him working with other partners from time to time. She doesn't seem particularly jealous of Kathy. She has tried to help Elliot and Kathy. In Wildlife (I think that's the name, again I could be wrong), Kathy was threatening to leave Elliot if he didn't call. Elliot was undercover. Olivia tracked him down specifically to tell him about Kathy. Would she do this if she wanted Elliot all to herself, or would she be happy that Kathy might leave him?

I definitely think Olivia gets too emotionally invested in her cases. This is why she can't let things go, even when ordered to (i.e. in Abuse or Abused or something Cragen orders her to stay away from a family, but Olivia defies him because she wants so badly to help the little girl. It's not all about the job. She risked losing her job by becoming too involved in the case. The family took out a restraining order on her--that's how overly involved she was). She often stays in victims' lives after the case is over and done. If she were only acting concerned about the victims to serve justice, wouldn't she be done after the attackers were tried and imprisoned? In Wrath, someone with a grudge against Olivia goes after people who Olivia has maintained active relationships with. There were several. She monitored visitations between a little boy and his dad...there has to be a social worker or someone getting paid to do that, but Olivia chose to do it. There are so many examples of her getting too emotionally invested. I couldn't possibly remember or name them all.

I wanted to address some things in this post… I actually think you and Arabesque are on opposite ends of assessing Olivia.



Again, this is incorrect. As RJ stated, Cragen told Olivia that her mom fell down the steps. In that episode we discovered that Serena was drunk. Social, older drinkers don’t just fall down the steps after having a couple glasses of wine. And I would rewatch Intoxicated if I were you. It’s not just the statements Olivia made about her mother being drunk… they also showed Olivia all alone, having no problems locating bottles of alcohol. That emotional scene would make zero sense, if Serena weren’t an alcoholic. Was that scene there just to show that Olivia rocks at searching for bottles? No. It was there to show that Olivia knows from experience where alcoholics hide their drinks. The scene between her and the attorney wouldn’t make any sense either. Your theory of Olivia making up the stories about her mother being an alcoholic is full of assumptions that don’t make any sense to me.





Abortion and adoption may be what you would choose…. but not all people (me included) would go that route. BTW, there are real rape victims just like Serena, who kept their children and are unable to show them the love that a mother shows her child. It happens all the time. And it’s not all black and white. Serena could see Olivia as a product of rape AND as her child. She might have wanted to love her, but found it difficult because Olivia is a reminder of her rape.



She wants ‘control’ of the victim yet she still gets emotionally invested in DEAD victims. What is your reasoning for that? It’s not about the job or having ‘control’… If it was, Olivia wouldn’t risk her job so often and cry over the situations that victims are in… unless of course you are suggesting that she cries because she’s frustrated that she doesn’t have control… which would be kinda ridiculous…

RJ87 Posted Today, 05:30 PM
Serena died leaving a bar drunk and falling. That is proof that she was a drunk and probably an alcoholic. Cragen is the one who said this, not Olivia. While it does not prove that she was a drunk when Olivia was little, I think it is likely that she was.

Actually Cragen told Olivia that her mother fell down the steps of the Velvet Room. Olivia asks if she was drunk and Cragen said yes. All that proves is that Serena was drunk on that occasion. It does not prove that Serena was a drunk or an alcoholic. And it has no bearing on whether Serena was a drunk thirty years before then.
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In Intoxicated (I think that's the episode name, could be wrong though), Olivia found out that a teenage girl and murder suspect may have killed her mother because the mother was an abusive alcoholic. Olivia then went to the house and knew exactly where to find all of the bottles of hidden alcohol. While not solid proof, this suggests that Olivia may have known where alcoholics hide their alcohol because she grew up with one.

My parents weren't alcoholics. But even I know that alcoholics hide sources of alcohol. It is a one of the signs that someone is an alcoholic.
You don't know that Olivia found all the bottles. The places she looked were pretty common places for lots of things. And she missed one that is pretty a classic for hiding alcohol.
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Olivia also asked an attorney who specialized in child rights to help this girl. At one point in the episode, Casey asked Olivia how she knew the attorney. Olivia explained that the attorney had helped her deal with her mother when she was younger. The attorney made a comment to Olivia, something like "You remember what that was like, don't you?" when explaining that the girl had not told the police about her mother because she was embarrassed. The attorney clearly remembers Olivia dealing with an alcoholic mother. I think there are several reasons to believe that Serena was a drunk and probably not a very good mother.

The conversation between Simone and Olivia went like this:
Simone: Olivia, what are you gonna do?
Olivia: I have to tell the DA.
Simone: Hold on. You know it wasn't murder.
Olivia: Why didn't you present that as evidence?
Simon: She refused to talk about it. (pauses) You remember what that was like. (Olivia nods slightly)

Nowhere in that conversation does Simone Bryce say Serena was a drunk or that Olivia had to deal with an alcoholic mother. It is not clear she was taking about that at all. It is a possibility but not the only one. Carey didn't want to talk anything to do with her mother, not just the alcoholism.
Simone Bryce helped Olivia with the criminal charges against her for assaulting Serena. That is not the same thing as helping Olivia deal with her problems with her mother.
The only version we heard of the night Olivia kicked Serena is Olivia's. Avoiding conviction and jail time is a very good reason for Olivia to slant the story so she appears to be an innocent victim trying to defend herself. It sounds like Serena was the only other person there. If she had been drunk at that time, she might not remember what happened. That leaves only Olivia's story to be presented to the court.
You are making an assumption that an alcoholic is unlikely to be be a good parent. That isn't a reasonable assumption to make. Being an alcoholic covers a wide range of behaviors. Not all of them would prevent someone from being a good parent.
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Also, why would Olivia make all of this up? What would her agenda be?

That's what children with attachment disorders do. They manipulate the people around them with lies or half truths to get control of their environment. This is one of the examples from the research I did:

"Consider the child who is controlling their environment at school by charming their teacher into believing that they are "the best teacher in the world." Sooner or later the child will recruit the teacher over to their side by placing the teacher in a position to defend the child against the parent. This scenario occurs quite often, and the school is unwittingly pitted against the parents, who have done nothing more than provide love and understanding for their troubled child. The child has learned to be a talented liar, and without any capability of understanding the cause and effect of this behavior may have accused the parent of child abuse, or child neglect, without any foundation."

Now substitute "lawyer" for "teacher" and think about the tale Olivia told Casey in Intoxicated. Olivia ran to Simone Bryce and told her about having to hurt her mother to get away from being attacked. Simone gets to rescue Olivia from this horrible abusive woman. And Olivia gets to avoid Serena's attempt to control her daughter's behavior when she won't let her 16 year old daughter marry a college senior. Olivia gets exactly what she wants.
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She doesn't like telling others about her past or her personal life. She didn't tell very many people that she was a child of rape at first. Munch did not know until Elliot told him. Then he asked Olivia who else knew and she said only Elliot and Cragen. She doesn't like having people feel bad for her or worry about her. She's shown this in Stalked and Wrath, when people thought she was in danger and were trying to look out for her. I could imagine an attention-seeking person who wants people to feel sorry for them making something like this up, but that's not Olivia in my opinion.

Olivia tells people about her past or personal life when she thinks she can use it to her to get or keep control. Olivia told Casey about her past in Intoxicated to get Casey to make a deal with Carey. She wasn't just opening up to Casey because she wanted to be closer to her. She wanted something and she got it.
Olivia doesn't want to tell people anything about herself that she feels could give them control over her. She doesn't want people feeling sorry for her if it gives them something to hold over her. But she'll use it if it gets her what she wants. Olivia has had no problem telling people about her past when it suits her. Examples include Screwed, Taboo, and Svengali.
Wrath is full of examples of Olivia's need to control. The Feds call Elliot to the Body Farms but Olivia insists that she has to be in charge because the victims were part of her cases. Cragen is worried about Olivia's safety but she insists on continuing to work on the case. The Feds suggest Olivia take herself off the case but she insists she can handle it. Elliot orders the protective detail and Olivia screams at him because he exercised control over her life. When Olivia officially takes herself off duty, she continues to work the case alone. She has to deal with Plummer herself without the rest of the squad helping.
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A lot of mothers leave their children in day care or with babysitters. Most of these children don't end up with abandonment issues.

There is a good deal of concern about problems with emotional development when mothers leave infants in extended daycare.
I'll refer you to this article:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:_h9yKS...=clnk&gl=us

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I don't think Olivia is possessive at all. I think if she were possessive, she would be very possessive of Elliot and in my opinion she is not. She doesn't mind him working with other partners from time to time. She doesn't seem particularly jealous of Kathy. She has tried to help Elliot and Kathy. In Wildlife (I think that's the name, again I could be wrong), Kathy was threatening to leave Elliot if he didn't call. Elliot was undercover. Olivia tracked him down specifically to tell him about Kathy. Would she do this if she wanted Elliot all to herself, or would she be happy that Kathy might leave him?

Olivia is extremely possessive. I already gave you the example from Wrath about her having to be in charge of her cases. In Closure Part 2, Olivia has to be the one to the one to deal with Harper. Olivia's cases are Olivia's cases forever.
Olivia doesn't care if Elliot works with Munch or Fin especially if she has something else she has to be be doing. But when Elliot suggested Rebecca Hendricks work with them in Weak, Olivia was definitely jealous. The same thing when Olivia saw Elliot and Dani Beck working together in Underbelly.
Kathy is different. Elliot and Kathy were married before Olivia came to SVU. Olivia doesn't see Kathy as a threat to her relationship with Elliot. Olivia has realized that Elliot wants to be married to Kathy and she isn't going to be in that part of his life. She'd rather have Kathy stay married to Elliot because that eliminates any chance that someone else will take Elliot away. It's all about controlling the situation to get what she feels is hers.
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I definitely think Olivia gets too emotionally invested in her cases. This is why she can't let things go, even when ordered to (i.e. in Abuse or Abused or something Cragen orders her to stay away from a family, but Olivia defies him because she wants so badly to help the little girl. It's not all about the job. She risked losing her job by becoming too involved in the case. The family took out a restraining order on her--that's how overly involved she was). She often stays in victims' lives after the case is over and done. If she were only acting concerned about the victims to serve justice, wouldn't she be done after the attackers were tried and imprisoned? In Wrath, someone with a grudge against Olivia goes after people who Olivia has maintained active relationships with. There were several. She monitored visitations between a little boy and his dad...there has to be a social worker or someone getting paid to do that, but Olivia chose to do it. There are so many examples of her getting too emotionally invested. I couldn't possibly remember or name them all.

Olivia doesn't let things go that she has been in charge of. Having control is how she keeps the world safe. That's why she continues seeing victims after their cases close. In Wrath she had to continue to see the father of the murdered rape victim, monitor the visitation between an abused boy and his father, and keep up with a victim rape. She can't turn them over to someone else because she can't give up her control of the situation. It's part of her defense mechanism to keep herself safe in the world. As long as she is in control, anything that happens to her is her decision. We know that is not how the world really works. But child with attachment disorders are all about taking care of themselves by being in control.
In Abuse Olivia found a problem with Ashley all on her own. She took charge and when Cragen tried to take control away from her, she ignored him. She wouldn't give him control of the situation. When the parents got a restraining order, Olivia ignored that as well. They couldn't have control of the situation either. Olivia had to do things her ways even if trying another approach might have Ashley the help she needed.
Olivia doesn't get emotionally invested in any relationships. That would require give and take. You can't do that and keep control. Keeping control is the only way Olivia knows to keep herself safe in the world. She will let her guard down only if she chooses and it gets her something she wants. It's the only way she believes she can survive.

Yes, I agree that Serena being a drunk when she died does not prove she was an alcoholic when Olivia was growing up. I said so in my post. I do THINK it's likely, but it's definitely not solid proof. Older social drinkers do not usually get so drunk that they fall and hurt themselves. Usually only drunk college kids and people with drinking problems do that. I speculate that Serena was drinking by herself. Otherwise, I would think Serena's friend would be the one to call Olivia rather than Cragen telling her. Again, not solid proof, just what I believe.

Do you know WHERE alcoholics hide all of their bottles? Because I don't. I know that they hide them, but I would never have thought to look half the places Olivia knew to look, which makes me think Olivia knew where to look because she had grown up with an alcoholic. Again, this is my opinion. I guess Olivia finding bottles doesn't tell us for a fact that her mother was an alcoholic, but most people seem to have gotten the same impression I did.

I thought it was pretty clear that Simone Bryce was talking about Olivia remembering what it was like because Olivia had been through exactly the same thing. I could be wrong. But, that is definitely the impression I got. I don't remember them ever saying anything about criminal charges against Olivia for kicking Serena or the attorney defending her. Maybe I'm blanking on it, but I really don't remember that at all. I doubt Serena would have pressed charges, which would make your argument that Olivia was trying to avoid criminal charges by lying irrelevant. If I forgot and am completely wrong, I apologize but I honestly can't remember anything about criminal charges against Olivia.

I guess I can see what you mean about abandonment (which I don't know much about), but I still think it's more likely that Serena was in fact an alcoholic. I can also see how you would think Olivia has control issues and maybe even agree with you a little, but I really think she gets too emotionally involved as well.

Seriously? That doesn’t make any sense to me. It may not prove that Serena was an alcoholic in the past, but still... come on…
One, why would Olivia guess alcohol if Serena wasn’t an alcoholic? Look at her face expression in that scene. It is clear that Olivia wasn’t exactly shocked that it was alcohol that caused her death.

Next, how many grown adults do you know that drink on occasion and then fall down the steps from getting extremely drunk from an occasional drink? Here on my college campus, I see younger students fall and I see them passed out all the time. When adults die from alcohol it is usually due to car accidents because they are under the influence, or because they are alcoholics. An occasional drinker doesn’t get wasted, fall down the steps and die.

That is the HUGEST stretch I’ve heard in a while to assume that Olivia made up stories about her mom being an alcoholic, even though Serena ‘coincidentally’ died due to alcohol.



Again, this scene doesn’t make any sense if Serena weren’t an alcoholic. It would be unnecessary. The writers wanted to portray something here… the scene wasn’t about a good detective who is capable of finding bottles. It was about Olivia knowing where to find alcohol from her experience with her mother.






Hey, I remember submitting these quotes (with the ‘pauses’ and ‘Olivia nods slightly’) to tv.com a loooong time ago. I wonder is it the same ones or just really similar.



Does Simone really have to mention, “Olivia… your mother was an alcoholic…” for us to believe that she was? It is VERY clear what she was talking about. Carrie’s mother was an alcoholic, which was the root of the problems she experienced with her. I don’t think anyone (besides you) took that conversation to mean anything else. IMO, that shouldn’t have left us curious and wondering what they were talking about… it was pretty obvious.

Elliot doesn’t have solid proof that his father was abusive in any way either. Unless special clues are given to suggest that he or Olivia are telling tales, then it should be clear.

I have seen many adults, who are social drinkers, go out one day and get totally smashed enough to fall down and injure themselves. My sister was one of them...she doesn't really drink, and if she does, she only has one or two...but this day she got smashed, tripped up the steps and broke her foot...it happens and it isn't a stretch...at least in my eyes...I am not taking sides on the issue, but accidents happen to social drinkers as well as alcoholics is the point I am trying to make...

I agree. The case was about a mother who didn't want her daughter dating this older boy she accused of rape. Later, we found out that the mother was an alcoholic trying to control her daughter's actions, going so far as insisting that the girl be dragged to the hospital for a rape exam, despite the girl's wishes.

During the interview, Carrie even said something like "I love my mom. But when she's drunk, she isn't a mother." If I remember correctly, that was when Bryce turned to Olivia and said, "You know what that was like, Olivia." Olivia nodded and left the room. I believe that scene was enough for us to conclude that Olivia confided to Bryce about her similar experiences years ago.

Arabesque, thank you for all the insights you've provided. It's always enlightening to read an objective character analysis (especially on Olivia) from someone who has experience in the field of helping victims of sexual assault, and is consistently fair and impartial with her opinion on the show and its characters. It's definitely more valuable than from someone just making assumptions.

Okay, well I personally havn't heard of many older adults like your sister (even though I don't know exactly how old she is). Usually older adults around Serena's age know their limit. And I actually have seen non-alcoholics get smashed at wedding parties or social gatherings... but not while they are alone, outside a bar, and drunk enough to die from a fall. That's an alcoholic in my eyes. And I wasn't saying that an adult getting smashed was a stretch... I was trying to say that number 1 occuring AND numbers 2-4 occuring is a stretch.

1. Olivia makes up a tale about her mother being an alcoholic.

2. Olivia's mother dies because of alcohol.

3. Olivia immediatly assumes that Serena fell because of alcohol.

4. Simone tells Olivia "You know what that was like", when referring to a girl whose mother was an alcoholic.

Number one doesn't match up with the rest. It's the hugest stretch I've seen in a while. A normal person wouldn't assume alcohol if that person wasn't an alcoholic. I'm sure if you recieved news that your sister fell down the steps and broke her foot, you wouldn't automatically assume alcohol... you would think it was an accident unless you knew she was heavily drinking that night or that she was an alcoholic. And you don't have an opinion on whether Olivia's mom was an alcoholic? It's not about taking sides... but you have to have some thoughts on it? Maybe not...

Exactly. Thank you. I was trying to think of that line, but I couldn't remember it.

In the episode with the b!tchy blonde girls from the prep school who murdered their friend...was it "Mean?"....doesn't Olivia tell Agnes (the girl they had been picking on unmercifully) that "her own mother drank a lot, so she pretty much kept to herself."... Am I imagining things?

I'm not sure if Olivia said that or not, but even if she did that's not what's being debated. Hisgirl admits that Olivia has said that her mother was an alcoholic.. she just thinks that it was a tale... that Olivia made it up.

LoriOZ Posted Today, 03:21 PM
In the episode with the b!tchy blonde girls from the prep school who murdered their friend...was it "Mean?"....doesn't Olivia tell Agnes (the girl they had been picking on unmercifully) that "her own mother drank a lot, so she pretty much kept to herself."... Am I imagining things?

The episode is Mean from season 5. Olivia did say that when she was trying to get Agnes to talk to her about what the mean girls were doing. It's a common interrogation technique to show empathy with the person you are speaking to. And it worked in this case. Agnes believed Olivia understand what she was going through and started talking. But you should believe everything the detectives say when they are questioning someone. As Simone Bryce said, they lie all the time.

I think Serena was indeed an alocholic and there's no way I don't think Olivia would be making that sort of thing up. It does make sense that Serena turned to alochol to numb the pain, that's how normally people with problems turn to. Here's something personal: My grandmother was an alcoholic (member of AA before she died, was 35 years sober) and she was quite open about it to me of why she turned to alcohol, partly to numb whatever crappy experience she was going through or just wanting to have fun.



My grandmother did drink while she was alone at home, reading a bible, drinking wine while her three little kids were at school; with a bar, she has done that too- I remember one story she told me that while she was in college, she would actually had her head outside her window making sure she was driving in the lane while not at the road! (But she never fell down and died, thank God). Luckily she realized her problem, went to AA and was sober for the remaining years of her life. However my Grandmother was never raped, she did not have a child from rape who she saw day in and day out so there's a big difference in that situation; but an alcoholic is an alcoholic no matter what or who got that person there.

Sorry to make it personal but it does hit home for me. Again, I don't think Olivia was making up the idea of her mother being an alocholic, I don't think Olivia is using that as attention grabber or whatever.

Kamara Posted Today, 03:27 PM
I'm not sure if Olivia said that or not, but even if she did that's not what's being debated. Hisgirl admits that Olivia has said that her mother was an alcoholic.. she just thinks that it was a tale... that Olivia made it up.

Once again words are being put in my mouth. I didn't say Serena couldn't have been an alcoholic. My objection was that people were making assumptions about based on what Olivia said about Serena. Statements made by children about their parents are inherently unreliable, especially when they are talking about their childhood.
Do you remember the story about the five blind men trying to describe an elephant by touching one part of it? None of them could describe an elephant. The best they could do was describe the part they touched. Olivia is describing her history with Serena as though it were the elephant's trunk and people are accepting it as the whole elephant.
Olivia has an agenda about her mother. Suddenly after Serena's death she was becomes an abusive alcoholic. That doesn't match the woman we saw in Payback. I'm sure Olivia believes everything she has said about Serena. But that doesn't make it true.

Let's take Elliot and his father. In Rooftop, Elliot said his father never approved of a single thing he ever did. You wouldn't base a claim that Joe Stabler was abusive on that. In Ripped, Elliot told Hendricks about his father beating him, among other things. You are getting closer to being right about Joe Stabler being abusive. But all you have are Elliot's memories from childhood. And Elliot's behavior fits with his story. It's not until Swing when Bernadette confirms that her husband could have used someone praying for his soul that there is someone else backing up what Elliot said. Not in its entirety, but enough to be confirm that Elliot and Joe had problems.

I apologize. That wasn’t intentional… but it does sound like you are at least doubting that Serena was an alcoholic and that Olivia created this tale. In one part you wrote "...think about the tale Olivia told Casey in Intoxicated." It sounded like you were sure, but maybe you were just saying that could be a possibility. That’s how I read it, but it looks like I misunderstood.



Serena showing Olivia love does not mean that she wasn’t an abusive alcoholic. If you see adults getting along and appearing to be affectionate toward one another that does not mean that they don’t have painful pasts. If you saw my mom interacting with her parents today you would never guess that she was raised in a chaotic household with 11 siblings, 3 bedrooms and an alcoholic and abusive father (toward my grandmother). I just found this out 2 years ago and its still hard for me to believe. Everyone seems to be getting along great… I’ve never seen so much love in a family. People might have reconciled and healed their present relationships, but they still can have bruises from their past. I’m sure that I’m not the only one who could relate. I could think of other examples, but you all probably have messed up stuff in your families too that no one would ever guess. And again, in my opinion, Serena does love Olivia. She was just incapable of showing love because of her drinking and the reminders from Olivia of her rape.



Like, Simone, Bernadette did not verbally say that Joe was abusive to Elliot. It’s the same situation. I don’t see how her saying that Joe needs prayer is more evidence than Simone telling Olivia “You know how that was” when referring to Carrie's alcoholic mother. With your logic, Bernadette could have easily been talking about Joe having affairs… or gambling problems… or anything…

To be honest with you, she was in her 30's when it happened...but just because someone has too much to drink on one night doesn't make that person an alcoholic...she hardly ever drinks and cannot be considered an alcoholic because she got smashed one night...JMHO

I didn't say I didn't have an opinion on the subject, I said I don't want to take sides. That's different. But since you asked, I do believe that Olivia's mother was a functional alcoholic. She drank a lot, but I don't believe it affected her ability to go to work. Her relationship with Olivia is somewhat sketchy. The show gave the appearance that at times in Olivia's life her mother wasn't there for her and wasn't exactly a great mother to her. I remember an episode where Olivia was talking to that big girl in a school interview and telling her that she didn't have many friends in high school because her mother drank a lot.

Are Serena's problems with Olivia because of the alcohol? Because she was a product of her rape? We will never know the whole truth because in my opinion, there are three sides to every story...My side, Your side, and the truth...and in this situation, we will only ever get to know Olivia's side of what happened. This entire debate is speculation...Nothing on the show is definitive for either side of this argument, we can olny make assumptions on bits and pieces of information...

I think alcoholism touches everyone's life at one time or another. My grandfather wasn't just an alcoholic, he was an abusive f*n drunk. He was either in the mines or at a bar. He took me to a bar for the first time when I was three. and one of the reasons I do think Serena was an alcoholic is because of the stories my mom would tell me about her life growing up with an alcoholic father...they were almost identical...she really couldn't bring any friends home...there was always booze around...things like that...

This is the same person who would buy me and my sisters and cousins anything we wanted. He even sold me my first car for a dollar. He didn't want it anymore and he really should never get behind the wheel of a car (because he was almost always drinking). But when his kids were growing up, he was a real prick...typical miner...

From what you said before, I don't think your sister is an alcoholic either. I was just saying that I've never heard of a person around Serena's age going out and getting that wasted… unless of course they are alcoholics. I’ve seen adults (even around Serena’s age) getting drunk, but they are usually at some social gathering or party, surrounded by people they know. I’m not sure what the “Velvet Room” was suppose to be in New York, but in other places, it is a bar during the day and a club a night… well 2 hrs from me in Atlanta anyway… I just cannot imagine a much older person who isn’t an alcoholic going to a bar and coming out unsteady on their feet and uncoordinated enough to fall down and die. And like I said before, unless your sister had a problem with alcohol, I’m pretty sure if you weren’t there or you didn’t know she had been drinking that night that you wouldn’t assume alcohol after you heard the news of her falling down the steps. If I heard one of my sisters fell down the steps and got hurt… I would assume exactly that… that they fell down the steps and got hurt. Immediately, Olivia assumed alcohol when she heard the bad news… that wasn’t a coincidence (and I’m not saying you think it was).




IMO, she drunk to hide the pain from her rape... so in a way, it is a combination of both. That’s just my opinion though. That I think can be left up to debate… but I think there is no question that Serena was an alcoholic.

Many people on here have said "if it wasn't said on the show" or "if it wasn't shown on the show"...then we can't assume anything, and I don't remember anyone saying she was an alcoholic...maybe I am wrong, I just don't remember it being said...

Wow, it looks like I've missed quite a bit. Let me try to catch up a little here. First of all, let me backtrack here for a minute and try to explain a little bit better why I think Olivia needs to tell Elliot. I had said before that the reason Olivia doesn’t want to tell Elliot is because he can’t fix it, and what happened is “unfixable.” Her thoughts here are very common for a survivor of sexual assault. She feels this way because she’s ashamed of what happened. She feels like it has changed the person who she is. While there’s nothing wrong with her feeling this way, and it’s perfectly natural, I also wouldn’t want to see her be okay with that. Because admitting that’s okay is the same thing as admitting that she’ll never be able to get over the shame of what happened. And while it’s definitely not easy, and a part of that will always stay with her, in order to truly recover, she has to work through that and put the blame on Harris.

We haven’t seen her get to that point yet (because I don’t buy that scene out on the patio in Smut—this is one instance in which I do fully agree with hisgirl). In Smut, Olivia’s only purpose in disclosing and saying the things she did was to manipulate the situation. There is absolutely no way she could go from her emotional/mental state in PTSD to where she was in that scene in such a short period of time otherwise—never going to happen. But getting back on topic, she needs to be able to come to terms with the fact that it doesn’t matter what she did, she’s not at fault for what happened. When she’s able to accept that, she’ll be able to slowly start to let go of those feelings of shame and self doubt. As she’s able to get rid of those, she’ll be able to see herself as more than just a victim. She’ll be able to see that she’s not actually “broken”, and she’ll be able to realize that her reasons for not telling Elliot are not necessarily valid.

But she has to be the one to get to that point, and she has to be able to be the one to make a conscious decision to tell him. The decision to tell someone is one way that a survivor learns to take back control. It’s one way that she realizes that she gets to make decisions again. And if that is rushed, or if Elliot is the one to confront her about it and force her to talk, she’s going to feel like a victim again. She’s going to feel out of control, and it will have the exact opposite effect of what we want to see (i.e. for him to help her to heal).

As far as Olivia telling the rape crisis counselor, we’ve seen 2 scenes with her in therapy. The first one she was actually talking about what happened. The second one she had completely closed herself off, and I personally got the impression that she was NOT contributing at all to therapy. She was not talking about what happened (at least not in group). Otherwise, Rachelle’s comment to her about “it being better to be in prison than to get raped” would have never happened. Rachelle would have never said that if she knew that Olivia had been sexually assaulted in a prison. Group therapy is about being supportive—that would have gone against everything they are there for. How much she actually told Margo is up for debate. I got the impression she had talked about her being the product of rape, but was very closed off about the sexual assault. Again, that’s what I picked up on based on those scenes.

You have to know how to get through to Olivia because the obvious doesn’t always work for her. In order for her to really begin to understand it wasn’t her fault, you have to put it in a context that she’ll understand. Olivia is 2 things—rational and completely over-emotional (I know that doesn’t make a lot of sense, lol). But she is—she has this completely rational side of her, and then she has the side of her where she leads with her emotions and rationalizes those decisions. I put this in Falling, but the way to get through to her is to compare her situation with what happened to Elliot in Wildlife. If somebody asked her if Elliot had been at fault for getting shot while undercover, she would look at them like they were crazy. If they told her that this is the same thing as her being sexually assaulted while undercover at Sealview, they could appeal to her rational side and she might finally be able to see the logic to it.

Elliot can help her see that because he knows how her mind works. And telling him, as opposed to someone else, is going to help her heal in a different way than just talking it through in therapy. If she never tells him the truth, he’s never going to completely understand what her triggers are. He’s never going to be able to understand why she’s more sensitive to certain things. And he’s not going to be able to help her out on the job. And she’s going to continue to invest extra energy into hiding the truth from him and pretending that certain things don’t bother her. In her line of work with the constant exposure to triggers, she has to be able to tell him, or she’s going to be continually haunted by what happened, and it’s going to continue to affect her until she is finally able to let go of her need to hide the truth. Once she does that, she may still deny that something hits close to home, but at least she doesn’t have to invest that amount of emotional and physical energy into hiding the truth. She needs to be able to do that—she needs to be able to admit it affects her, in order to be able to become stronger by it. This can help her in her job—it can make her a better cop, but not until she admits that it’s a part of her.

Hey Arabesque, I'm curious to know, do you watch "In Plain Sight" on USA? (I know, you are super busy..but it's a good show. TiVO it, if you can.)

The reason I ask is, they are also doing a PTSD story arc with their female lead...she was abducted and almost raped as well.
It's been interesting, IMO anyway, to compare and contrast the way SVU has handled this with Olivia, and the way IPS is doing so with Mary. Very different. I'm interested to hear your analysis and comparison.
I hope you get to watch!

First of all, I don’t agree with you that Olivia isn’t a reliable source, partially because to be honest, I don’t think the writers have it in them to be able to write her that way. Yes, there are absolutely times where Olivia manipulates the situation, particularly on the job, to get what she wants. I do see her as someone who can be, at times, very manipulative. But not about what you’re talking about here. There are certain things that are very much genuine about her—and her history with her mother is one of them. I definitely do not see her making that up. And her history with her mother is really very believable.

As far as Serena’s decision to not terminate the pregnancy, Olivia specifically says in Florida, “My mother was a drunk, just like him. It was 1967. Abortion was a crime.” Now, with that being said, I think Olivia believes Serena didn’t have a choice. Whether or not she actually did is one thing that I would definitely say is still up for debate. But even assuming that Serena did make the decision to have Olivia (and obviously she decided not to give her up for adoption), that doesn’t mean she wasn’t abusive. And don’t take this the wrong way—I’m not saying that Serena did not love her daughter. I think that Payback makes it very clear she does. However, that does not mean that she knew how to take care of Olivia. That does not mean she was emotionally ready for the burden of having a child that would remind her of her rape. That’s the difference I see. I think Serena did everything she could for Olivia, but I think that as much as she wanted to see something else in her, she couldn’t get past the constant reminder of her rape because she hadn’t had the chance to deal with everything before she was born.

Many sexual assault survivors have problems coping after their assault. And yes, Serena had nine months before Olivia was born. But on top of everything else that you are going through in your attempt to recover, Serena would have experienced all of the side effects, fears, and challenges of going through a pregnancy completely alone (or so it seems). She probably had very little, if any, support. She was probably incredible frightened about the possibility of motherhood which was doubly compounded by the constant reminder of her rape. Women who have been sexually assaulted are 13x more likely to abuse alcohol than others. Add in the pregnancy, and it’s not at all difficult to see why Serena turned to alcohol. Going through all that and then having a child to care for would have easily been more than she could cope with alone. I have no doubt (based not just on how she acted in Payback, but also what she said about why she didn’t want revenge) that Serena was probably a great mother when she was sober, but she would have been very neglectful when she was drunk. She just did not have the time or resources to cope with what happened to her before Olivia was born. I regularly talk to women who are still dealing with their rape 30-40 years later. And they don’t have a physical reminder of what happened to them right in front of them. I don’t think it was coping with Olivia; I think it was coping with her rape. Like Caitlin Ryan said—she just lost her ability to take care of her child. And I think that when things got rough for Serena, she would just try to numb everything with alcohol to make it go away. And when she did, she wouldn’t have been there for her daughter.



Researchers have widely debated the issues of whether or not day care contributes to attachment disorders or not. But what many of them agree on is that “issues such as stress, poverty, and substance abuse need to be considered when examining relationships between infants and their caregivers…Many caregivers who are experiencing multifaceted problems brought on by unemployment and lack of resources, for example, may be less likely or able to respond to their infants in a secure and loving way than caregivers who have adequate social supports and resources and are not investing all their energy in survival” (Rogers, 2006).



I have to disagree with you here. Yes, Olivia does have a lot of issues to confront regarding her mother’s death, and she is angry with her about it. But I don’t think she is twisting her childhood memories into creating this abusive, alcoholic mother. As others have already pointed out, I think the show has done a pretty good job of showing us this and has even come outright and said it. They’ve really tried to make it clear what Olivia’s childhood was like for her. Yes, she may use that information to manipulate certain situations, but that doesn’t mean she’s making that information up. She’s just drawing on her own experiences to get what she needs out of other people. That’s her job.



First of all, we may not have concrete proof of what she was like as a child, but I would guess she would fall under the temperament termed “the difficult child.” When an infant doesn’t develop that healthy secure attachment with their mother during early infancy, that’s fairly common. That’s probably part of what pushed Serena to continue to drink which in turn contributed to Olivia’s difficulty in child development (and I’ve psychoanalyzed Olivia before using a couple of different child development theories and there’s a lot more than can be said on that).

As far as the rest, I think others may have disagreed on this to an extent, but I actually agree with you for the most part. At times, Olivia is very much all of those things. But she picks and chooses when to manipulate and control people. I’ve really watched her and analyzed her behavior so that I can tell the difference. But even with Cragen, she has him wrapped around her little finger. I think sometimes, even he doesn’t know what hit him. And to be completely honest, it’s these faults that I absolutely love about her. They make her character so interesting to me. They make her human.



I don’t completely agree with you here. Yes, at times, she does manipulate things and occasionally, she will manipulate the victims. But as a general rule, I think that Olivia actually sees herself in all of the victims. That’s why she gets emotionally invested in their cases (dead or alive as Kamara pointed out). That’s why she can’t let go. She’s so busy trying to right “her mother’s wrong” that she can’t separate the two. It’s not about controlling the victims—it’s about controlling herself.

I think the perfect example of showing Serena was an alcholic was in intoxicated when Oliva found all the bottles Carrie's mom had. Alcholics hide their liquor alot ofhe time, so how would one explain where Olivia knew all the right places to look?
Even though they may not have come right out and say it( I can't be sure), they have hinted at Serena being an alcoholic

I'm gonna marry this post. And I really agree with the part about Serena loving Olivia. As I said before, she probably did love her. Being an alcoholic and an abuser doesn't necessarily mean you don't love your child. People think that the writers did a complete 180 with Serena's character (after Payback), but I disagree. I think my grandfather loved my mother very much... but according to my family members... he was verbally abusive to she and her siblings when he was drunk. At everyone's adult years, you would never even guess what happened in the past. And now I understand what you mean by manipulate... however, like you, I think she only manipulates situations on the job... And I think she can be emotionally invested and manipulative at the same time. To me, the reason she manipulates is becuase she is so emotionally invested, not to have 'control' over them.

In Plain Sight rocks, I love that show