So, I hear people talking about "Mary Sue" stories and romance stories and even slash, but I've never been 100% clear on where the lines are.

Can you all help me out? How to you define them and where do you think th lines are drawn between them? I'm interested in everyone's opinion.

A Mary Sue is a too-perfect character that no one within the fic or show seems to hate. Everyone loves her, no one at all hates her. You hate her already, don't you?

Let me put it the way it's been for me. Say, you love a character. Bobby, let's say. You place him with another character, who may have a different name but is, in essence you (also called an author avatar, I've got one). The thing is, Bobby can't hate you. He just can't. You'd die. So, he doesn't hate your avatar either.

Say you give her a few habits and talents you wish you had, she's pretty in the way you feel women are pretty, and your favorite characters just love her because . . . well, they must.

That's a Mary Sue.

All right, here's my take on your questions. First I'll give you a definition of what I think a mary sue is:
an original character generally female (though it can be male) who:
-has everyone in the story fall in love with her
-takes away the credit for the hero (usually by solving the mystery, conflict etc at the centre of the story)
-often has lots of unreasonable skills (can speak six languages while knowing maritial arts, how to comfort children, and how to whip up a drink etc)
-is often usually very good looking (purple prose like violet eyes, etc)
-has very little complexities or flaws (ie doesn't get mad, always backs up the hero, is never disappointed, scared etc)

As far as romance goes, it's very possible to write a good Bobby/OC as long as you ensure his love interest has enough personality of her own to make it plausible. I would categorize a story as romance if the relationship is a major part of each chapter, or you devote equal time to the relationship as you do to the procedural aspect of the story.

I would call a story slash if it depicted the relationship of two people of the same gender in a manner that was deeper then friendship. Personally, I think you can have the characters joke about the scenario without it crossing the line, but once you start into touching etc, then it's slash in my mind. Hope this helps.

omg I am a real life Mary sue! I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, and never ever let you forget your a man, cause I'm a womannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. lol.


Someone just needs to make a dictionary thread!

AAaaaannndddd everybody loves you! lol


As for Mary Sue... she kinda sounds like every heroine of every Harlequin Romance I've ever read... except maybe for speaking 5 languages. But I see what you mean... perfection can be tedious.

(mental note to self... in next chapter have Carrie pick her nose and make sure Eames hates her...)

Hmm.....I'm going to need to take a deeper look at my OC.

Does it count if Bobby's brother doesn't like her?

I haven't seen anyone define "slash" yet, so I'll give it a whirl:

Logan and Goren get together and....

Well, you get the idea.

Man on man or woman on woman romance, sometimes sexually explicit, but not always. Done to DEATH in X-Files fanfic (Mulder with EVERYONE! ;-), not so much with LOCI. Thankfully.

Well Angela almost had an abortion, and her and Bobby fought, so, she isn't perfect,

I found a link for the Original Mary Sue Litmus Test.... it's funny.

http://www.onlyfiction.net/marysue.html

Kind of makes me think that Goren is the Mary Sue/Gary Stu character in most of the stories I've written - how is that possible?????

Uh oh, I scored 38. Definitely a Mary Sue--but there is hope she can be salvaged. But there were a few things I gave myself points for that I wasn't sure about.

Like did the character have an angsty childhood? Define angsty. Annie's parents were killed by a drunk driver when she was 11, yet she describes a happy childhood with her grandfather. Does that qualify as angsty?

Does the character share more than one of my hobbies or interests? Hmm...I guess I have to take those points, although I think she has more of my daughter's interests/hobbies.

And a couple of others that I took the points on but wasn't sure if they really applied. If I deduct the ones I'm not sure about, I have a borderline Mary Sue. There was a link to an essay on Mary Sueism, but it didn't work for me. I'll have to think about this.

I thought the test was a cute idea, but I'm not sure I've ever written a GOOD-person original character. I write baddies, but no one to make Bobby happy.

Whew... Carrie ia a 23. Only a borderline Mary Sue. But really... some of this stuff is just practical. I didn't give her a life exactly like mine, but some stuff is just easier to write if you already know what you're talking about. Sure, she could have fencing as a hobby... but I don't know crap about fencing and don't care enough to research it. But if she rides and trains horses, well I did that as a kid and have a wealth of detail I can plant in there without much effort at all.

I think the "is she perfect, gorgeous and everyone loves her cuz she's just so great" test is a little better.

Now that said, I must admit that in my story Bobby thinks Carrie is gorgeous. She isn't... just normally pretty... but when you're in love the object of your affection is gorgeous to you, no?

Exactly. I agree on both points.

Well, Amy scored a 40, and she's no Mary Sue! Unwed mother, never told Bobby about the baby....got snotty with Alex.....hmmmm.....guess she's one of those for whom that test isn't the best litmus test for.......

Now, I did Bobby. WHOA!!!!!!! He scores an 83! I consider the "canon" thread to be a character notebook, and we all want to fall in love and have sex with him, and on, and on, and on.......ya'll run him through and see what kind of score you come up with for him.

You tend to find a lot of mary sue characters in fics by very young authors who are just starting out in fan fic writing. I tend to notice them then anyway...oh and unusual names...the heroine always seems to have an unusual first name to go along with the violet coloured eyes, the knowledge and fluency of several languages, the natural connection to children and the occasional one may also possess a psychic power too .

So, let me get this straight. JudyG, Ciaddict, me (flashymom), TennesseeCIFAn, JRyan, and others on this forum, who are beginning writers, ALL have "mary sue" characters in their stories? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!! Have you read the stories here? My character had Bobby's baby and still hasn't told him, nor has she even tried to get in contact with him, for the last 25 years. Charli has doubts all the time about Bobby's love for her and her ability to be the kind of wife he deserves. Angela flies off the handle and yells at people at times, and is NOT in the career of the author. There are very few weird first names around here, either. No violet colored eyes, no linguistic geniuses or psychic powers, either. Just normal women encountering and dealing with the problems of being married to a successful police detective.

I could go on and on and on, but think I need to get off my soap box........

::huffs off in search of tacos, triple chocolate cheesecake and Tiramisu Martinis::

I don't consider that angsty. Angsty is if whe let that color her whole outlook on life and figured she was doomed to awfulness, doom doom doom... go home now. Oops Zim joke, but I think you get the idea. She's not angsty in my view because she coped with it, and even though it changed her life and she'll never forget it, she moved on with living and had a happy childhood anyway.


Whoa whoa whoa!!! I do believe Lisa K was making a general statement on MarySues and was not directed at anyone here. Lisa's observations are pretty much dead on too. New young writers are the ones who most often create characters completely in their own images with the ability to do everything better than everyone else in the story universe. The other signs of Mary Sue-ism are well documented as well. I didn't see any mention of any story or author in particular either here or elsewhere.

I know we're quick to defend one another, and that's all well and good, but make sure the threat is real, not just a coat on a chair in the dark. No one wants holes in their coat!

Okay, just testy from lack of caffeine (I'm trying to cut back....). Thankfully I only shoot NERF darts.

I didn't read any criticism in Lisa's comments either. In fact, everything other than "starting out" pointed firmly in the opposite direction. If starting out is the only thing we have in common with Mary Sue writers, then we're in pretty good shape!

I just went ahead and included myself there even though you didn't mention me because Breakthrough was my first try at writing anything since college a billion years ago.

On the other hand, I'm finding this dicussion very interesting and helpful. If I turn a magnifying glass on my own work, I can't say there isn't a glimmer of MS in my story here and there. You've all given me another tool I can use to make my writing better, more true to life. I'm happy to have that tool in my box.

So how about we talk about how our characters might be a little MS here and there and whether that helps the story along or if it's something that could use some work. It might help all of our stories shine a little brighter, don't you think?

If you read the first line of my post, i specifically mention young first time writers, in the sense that they are in their early teens...no way did i mean anyone else...it was not a criticism directed towards any of the writers here.

I'm not one to criticise anyone, i was pointing out something that i've noticed myself. Jeez louise, if that's the response i'm going to get by simply making an observation, then i'll keep my opinions to myself in future!!!

I have read the fics posted here incidentally and have enjoyed what i have read.

I am having this really strong urge to write a fanfic with a character named Mary Sue. I was even talking to my daughter about it last night. My thought was to write her so that she fits every Mary Sue cliche. My daughter thinks she should be the "anti-Mary Sue". What to do, what to do......

It's tempting, but I don't know if I want to take time out from my "serious" fanfic.

I was thinking the same thing!! LOL Not a whole fic, but I'm thinking of giving Carrie a sister named Mary Sue who's just perfect and beautiful and drives Carrie nuts... lol

Are her eyes violet? But what if Bobby falls in love with her? I would hate for Carrie's heart to be broken.

Eyes definitely violet. I'm thinking Bobby's eyes glaze over for a moment when he meets her, but then Carrie kicks him in the shins and snaps him out of it... lol

Yes, yes, yes, I'm a "Mary Sue"r but the points about writing what you know would apply here. For instance, I know something about horses, but I don't about being a man so I can't write a "Manny Sue" but I could a Neighlly Sue. (Putting up my umbrella so I don't get hit with wet tissues). I find Mary Sues fascinating because then the author puts some of themselves in the story and they know what they write about. And even without MS's you can tell when it's a young writer. I had to have that term explained to me by my very own daughter who told me I was writing one. Sad, huh. Just my two cents worth.

Mary Sue's of the world unite!

I just reread Silver on Black, had a cigarette, reread Black on Silver, had another one... lol

But anyway, it occured to me that this character ought to be a Mary Sue. She's beautiful, redhead, speaks five languages and her name is Sienna. Of course the language thing is well explained as she is employed as a translator. But you don't think of her as a Mary Sue because of the quality of the writing.

Is Mary Sue more a problem of poor writing than particular traits a character might have?

Yes, I think I need to go stock up on cigarettes.

I would say that the Mary Sue issue is really an issue of writing. I am admittedly new to fanfic, but so far I think every romance I've read has had a Mary Sue in it. I don't really see how you can avoid it to some degree. The whole point of writing a romance for Bobby (or Logan), whether it's Alex or a OC, is to give him someone who "completes" him. Ultimately we want him to find love and happiness. I don't see how that's going to happen with a character that everyone, including Bobby, hates.

And as Flashymom pointed out, if you try scoring that litmus test for Bobby (and I suspect Logan or Eames or Ross), you are gong to come up with a Mary (or Gary) Sue.

So, wrapping up my thoughts here, I think that the test and the essay (which I haven't had time to read) are useful as tools for trying to improve one's writing. But I'm not gonna worry about Annie being a Mary Sue. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy myself.

I think that's exactly the right attitude to have. Me too.

I've really enjoyed this thread and the "What wouldn't you write" thread. It might be fun to have some sort of ongoing writer's workshop thread where we can talk about stuff we're working on or problems we're running into and other stuff relating to the process of writing.

CIAddict, does your daughter write FF as well? My kids do but we write for different shows.


PfChristine- Silver on Black? Did I miss something good? I look for recommendations all over for good stories and I don't remember that one. Where is it? Can I read it too? No cigarettes but will a good shot of caffeine work? Soon I'll be able to do more on here, as soon as my new power cord arrives. This is a borrowed computer right now. Bleah.


Thanks for the updates.

Silver On Black is a story written by trinitywildcat. Check back a couple of posts and you'll find a couple of links her writing is posted. They're all very good. (at least I think so, anyway.) One that I've always liked, it's cute, is 'Bobby and the Irresistable Book'.

Happy Reading!

No my daughter doesn't write FF. She thinks I'm a bit loopy, but will sometimes tolerate listening to me talk out my ideas for a story--and will even occasionally offer suggestions.



Yes, Silver on Black is excellent. The whole Sienna and Bobby series is really good. The link is over in the What Wouldn't You Want to Write thread. I tried copying it, let's see if it worked.

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/739340/

Looks like it did. She did one story that she wrote the prequel and then a part 3, and someone else wrote the two stories in between. The only place I've found the in between stories is at Freedom of Speech Fanfiction. But I have a lot of trouble with that site. It's really slow and sometimes I can't get it to load at all. And those stories, The Birthday Gift, etc. are slash, so may not be worth trying to track down. I thought they were....interesting. But not really my thing.

I don't think this particular story is on ff.net, but you can find it here http://www.midnightlore.net/fanfiction/don...wuser.php?uid=3

Don't read it at work unless you don't mind fogging up your cubicle

I'll never be able to look at a public restroom the same way again!

OOPS... my apologies, I can't keep all these threads straight in my head.... I'm just all kerflumbled after re-reading some of those stories!

Oh, no, no, no! Please don't keep your opinions to yourself. In this thread, they are serving to make us all better writers. We're just all a little protective over here and I guess I got my dander up a little high and spouted off when I didn't need to. A bit of a knee-jerk reaction since we've had new folks come into various places on these boards and really be mean and ugly and have multiple identities and make people jumpy and angry and, well, sometimes we go off on people, like I did on you. I apologize and hope you will stick around, share some more of your opinions and post some of your own stories (if you've written any).

Maybe this week while the kids are in school I'll go check out the Silver on Black and Black on Silver stories........

This is totally true, in every aspect. If you're writing an OC (original character) into a CI fan fic, make sure she (or he) is ORIGINAL. Make them complex, give them flaws, make the character NOT get along perfectly with everyone. Don't make her the hero. Let her lose, big time. Have her make mistakes, so that she can LEARN. Create something I call a "developing character." She isn't perfect right off the bat; if she's new to CI then she's uncomfortable, and perhaps even *gasp* prickly! But hey, in the end, just do your best. If it's CI, most of us will read it anyway.

That's okay. Apology accepted. I have posted a couple of fics here, they'll be pages back now, 'Sharp Scratch' and 'Nocturne' which are one shots. The rest of my stuff is up at FF Net, under my old username...rubyrosettared.

TWC's fics are brilliant. I wish that i had an ounce of her talent...just the way she maps out a fic is a true talent. And those X rated scenes are very spicy but beautifully written at the same time. I'm a fan.

Well, why didn't you say so before that you're RRR?!?!?! I wouldn't have climbed up so high on my soap box! ::covers face with hand and slinks off to find tacos and cheesecake::

and *hugs*

Thanks. We may have to have a new thread where folks can go and say, "Hey, I'm still here! I used to be so-and-so, now I'm thus-n-such."

*hugs* back to you, too!

Sharp Scratch is one of my favorite all time fictions. I go back and read that fiction again and again.
Also, if anyone would know how to write a OFC with dimension - it is rubyrosettared. She has a fabulous story with an OFC where Bobby has an autistic son "Under Pressure".

I think I've said in messages to people, that the term Mary Sue seems big to me. If a story is well written and the characters are dimensional, than it is awesome to read. If a story is clumsy and the characters are flat, then it is awful. And, I don't think it matters if the characters are all canon. I have read some canon character fictions with Bobby and Alex that are so clutsy, that Alex strikes me as Mary Sue.

So I enjoy Annie, and Carrie, and Gus, and Barb, and Kate, and Andy, and Charli, and Angel, and... (of course I'm attached to Lucy)... I see out on fanfiction.net that there is a CI OC fics community. Not many stories are cataloged there... but an interesting concept. [Oh, and forgive me if I didn't list your OC, I do try to read everything I see with an OC, but sometimes it is hard to identify them from the title and tag line]

Thank you for your very lovely compliment...i'm seriously blushing now.

(Incidentally i'm currently writing a sequel to 'Under Pressure' )

::puts "Under Pressure" on 'fanfic to read' list::

Hey hey! Good to see you decided to come by at last!

Love the new stuff. Hugs!

My problem now is that I'm worried my current "OC" is going to come off MarySue in the next chapter. It's not that I'm trying to have her take over, it's just what she is. Although at this very moment I just thought of a way to work the scene so she has her moment, and the other characters have theirs. It is relevant to have this particular scene as it's kind of a reveal about the character. I'm not going to say any more than that.

I think the thing I worry about is that to have a good OC they have to have their time to shine or else they come off as wimpy or pathetic, but at the same time, they can't outshine the main characters too much or else you're heading into MarySue land. I guess it's about finding the right balance. I think this show is one it's easier to have the OC and the mains take turns in the spotlight with because even though our heroes do most of the work, they still have a team supporting them in the background.

I think you're headed in the right direction with your thoughts. Use the "Mary Sue" concept as a tool to help you keep your writing tight. As said by someone earlier, we all have a little Mary Sue in our OCs... it's really inevitable. Particularly if there is any sort of love story involved. Like you said, it's about balance. You absolutely should give your OC her moment to shine if that's what moves the story along. I think it's just important to make sure that it's one course, not the whole meal. If there's more going on than that and the writing is good, then a dollop of Mary Sue will just blend in.

Hope I didn't totally butcher the metaphor there.... LOL

Hi everyone. It looks like you know who I am! I wanted to come on here and say, firstly, thank you so much for all the lovely reviews and comments. I'm blushing like mad.

Weighing in with my comments on the whole Mary Sue thing... Firstly, two links I wanted to add:

The first official use of the term "Mary Sue" in a parody fic: A Trekkie's Tale

A rather well-written article about different types of Sue: Mary Sue Article.



So, is Sienna a Mary Sue? I've often wondered that. My own (biased) two cents is that she does have some elements of Sue; she's young, attractive, has striking colouring, and falls for the main character.

Then again, she's also (at first) inexperienced, naive, a little chubby, doesn't shave her legs, and got her name because her mother liked the sound of it on a paint chart. Sienna Mark II is somewhat battered by life, a little more cynical, and occasionally prone to snapping and saying exactly the wrong thing to Bobby, then regretting it later. (See "Loyalty and Betrayal" for more details. That fic also contains a chapter called "Red on Black" which I think people here will like, but you'll have to read it on the midnightlore site, it's not on fanfiction.net.)

So, I have tried not to make Sienna a Mary Sue, but the ultimate judge of that must of course be the reader!



My work here is done.

Ok, I'm a sucker. So I go to said site, read Red on Black chapter, and I have to say----------I need a long very cold shower.

That girl is no Mary Sue, but damn if I wouldn't want to be in her position!

My writing gets better for practicing Mary Sues and some day if I decide to grow up, maybe I'll be good enough to write like you guys. I enjoy all these stories.

UM, I just found Silver on Black. Someone light me a cigarette. OH, that's right I don't smoke. Oh my! I am a sheltered woman. OH MY!