Full Version: Lets get this b**ch going again
Alright people on this board (not sure if there is anyone anymore) this is a debate section. This board needs some good discussion again. Maybe we can bring in a good core group again. So someone come up with a topic cause i got nothin'.
I'm trying to get more members here. But until then, i'm not sure what kind of topic to start. I'm still speechless over meeting Jillian. 
Let's see where you guys stand on these topics (hopefully not on my side ) and what kind of discussion we can get out.
Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
) and what kind of discussion we can get out.Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
QUOTE (babaganoosh @ Aug 7 2008, 10:02 PM) 
Let's see where you guys stand on these topics (hopefully not on my side ) and what kind of discussion we can get out.
Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
) and what kind of discussion we can get out.Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
1- IMO, no, all Val Venis has done in his career to me is just not push worthy, maybe some of it is WWE's fault for not giving him the chance, but after all the squash matches he has been in, there is no need for a push as it wouldn't seem to make sense, and it just isn't going to happen.
2- This is a hard one, but i've always liked Randy Orton better than Batista, because Batista is just a jerk, and it took Orton longer to get his push, and once he did it really showed he can play a character very well, heel or face.
3- Yes, WWE will still excist in 50 years. Stephanie and Shane will be old by then, but Stephanie's kids will be running it most likely by then, and Shane is bound to have a family with his wife, but either way, their kids will have kids, then those kids will have kids, there is always going to be someone to take over the business.
Just in the interest of discussion, I'm going to be disagreeing with you anyways
1) Val Venus should get a push.
To forever doom someone as a jobber is something that I really don't encourage. Remember Funaki in the main event not too long ago, picking up the win, though he didn't come out looking strong? Well that was one amtch where he did very little, but he ended up still looking good. A couple more teaming with a main eventer, and they can suddenly push him to the mid-card with a winning streak for main events. Now imagine Val getting this push and not a scrawny Japanese guy.
Also, just take a look at a guy like Shelton Benjamin. He comes into the WWE, gets his push with Team Angle. The team breaks, he gets a little push with Haas, and he goes back to jobbing. He comes back solo, then jobs. He gets a push, then jobs. He eventually teams again, then jobs. He moves to ECW, dominates a little, but ends up jobbing when they try to move him up. Now, he's in line for a push, and I still believe him as a worthy competitor for a mid-card title, something that Val could go for too.
Outside of his push history, he still has the gimmick. He is aging, but he's kept himself in great shape. He still gets a great pop for a face jobber, something many others don't. And it's not like he can't wrestle anymore. He's never anything spectacular, but he's a pretty decent technical wrestler with the strength for some power moves.
2) Randy Orton made it better than Batista (I know you didn't say he didn't, but you stayed in-between...so I chose the side)
Right from the start of their WWE careers, Orton was better than Batista. Batista had to debut as Deacon Batista and essentially just some muscle as a bodyguard type wrestler for D-Von Dudley. His primary move, a spinebuster, yeah what a real exciting move to constantly win matches with. In fact, he was so bad that when he was moved to Raw, they felt the need to change his name and re-package him as Dave Batista. Meanwhile, Orton was a successful face character on SD right from the beginning until he was injured.
Moving into Evolution, their roles certainly show that Orton had the bigger impact. Batista was once again viewed as the muscle of the group and the enforcer. Meanwhile, Orton was considered the future. During his run in Evolution, Orton established one of the more creative and generally well-liked gimmick of being the legend killer. And the popularity shows even on forums such as these with so many usernames relating to being a legend killer. Let’s also not forget who was then made the youngest World Heavyweight Champion. What happened before this event for Batista, well the muscle was losing matches left and right.
After Orton left Evolution, he continued to feud with HHH, the leader of the group. Meanwhile, Batista was once again HHH and Flair’s bodyguard, sound familiar? After his feud with one of the best in the business in HHH, he moved onto having an extensive feud with Taker.
To generally sum-up the events after that to show Orton’s superiority, Orton is on the flagship brand. Batista, still working his way around SD. Orton has continued to rise again through the ranks and has become champion once again on Raw, which has a stacked roster. Meanwhile Batista, an over-used face on SD, has seen his push slowly declined. Orton faces greats such as HHH, Cena, among others. Batista faces Taker, and then a notable drop-off in Mark Henry and the Great Khali. Orton retained against all odds when facing HHH and Cena recently at the biggest event of the year when he had no chance in winning, which is even more impressive because he was a heel and not the underdog face that traditionally wins. Batista in his matches where he’s the underdog (against Taker), he loses.
Not only do their title histories and direction of their careers indicate that Orton has made it better for himself, but also their in-ring talents. Orton is a little bland on the mic, but has the aggressive heel promos down. Batista is more natural on the mic, but lacks passion in all his promos becoming a cookie-cutter promo cutter. Orton in the ring has developed more and more moves for his athletic stature and has one of the most surprising finishers in wrestling today. Batista has had the same power moves he’s had from the beginning and a power bomb is largely uncreative for a power guy that should be able to manipulate guys after lifts so easily.
So from the start Orton has been better than Batista, and Orton continues to improve his position within the company. Meanwhile Batista slowly slides off the map as a hated face. On the mic, nothing too special from both. However in the ring, no doubt Orton has improved more and has surpassed Batista’s ability.
3) WWE will not exist in 50 years.
When you look at the survival of a television show (I say television show as opposed to a sport because amateur wrestling really doesn't get much if any airtime, unlike some college sports), there's not much stability in it. There are many reasons that WWE might not exist in 50 years, and though they aren't individually very likely, combined there is a great chance of 1 of them happening. Here are some pretty simple and basic reasons that WWE will not exist, all of which are pretty reasonable and aren't even the unpredictable stuff that might happen.
1) Television stations might not want to carry WWE anymore. Let's face it, WWE has changed stations for their different programs a lot. I don't live in the USA, but they have changed from ones like TNN, USA (and back), whatever ECW originally was on, Spike, UPN, etc. Fact is, some stations might not have the time for WWE, or they might want to change their station's image, they might undergo management changes, etc. There are so many reasons that they might get dropped at any time to list, and that's exactly how WCW fell. Their television deal fell through, and all of a sudden they were at WWE's mercy.
2) A wrestling company doesn't need 50 years to build. Look at how long WWF/E has really been around, 40 years or so? Within the next 50, there may be another promotion to come along and get in a ratings war with WWE and they very well could win it. Hell, some may even argue that TNA is that threat, but even if they aren't, there is still plenty of time for a company to start up right now and take WWE out. Not to mention that WWE has let go of a lot of talent that could've been an asset to their company from writers, to the creative team, to wrestlers.
3) The rise of UFC and MMA in general is already having an effect on wrestling. Many fans are opting for the more real fighting and unpredictability of MMA, including myself. There are no cheesy storylines, the titles and PPVs aren't overused, and the booking of the opponents seems much more fair. Vince originally stated that UFC are not their competitors, but quickly backed off that statement and has said that they do consider them competitors now. Not only are they stealing fans and ratings from WWE, but they are also in a good position to take some of their talent. Obviously the example of Lesnar comes up and the more success that Lesnar has, the more likely talent will bolt for MMA. If Angle were younger, there's a damn good chance that he'd actually give MMA a chance. One of the top guys in the WWE at the time (Lesnar) and one of the top guys in TNA right now (Angle) could've left and made a good living, and I'm sure others will look at MMA as an alternative to the harsh schedules and sometimes getting screwed out of money.
4) Ever since the Monday Night Wars, the ratings have dropped considerably for the WWE. They went from like weekly 6 or higher ratings to now around 3. Their ratings have cut in half in about a decade (not too sure how long it actually has been). After a while of crazy stunts, fans get tired, ratings drop, revenues drop, and nobody wants to see the manufactured product anymore. Thus, WWE starts to lose money and Vince will look to get out of wrestling.
Then you have some other options like Vince wants to get out while he's ahead, and maybe neither Shane nor Steph are ready to take over full-time and they end up driving it into the gorund. Other minor options like these combined with the big 4 that I chose, and WWE could very well not exist in 50 years.
Please, feel free to respond to any comments I made, hopefully referencing every paragraph and point I made (take your time). This is probably one of the only ways we can showcase this forum to others, and if any other guests or newly registered users want in, go on ahead.
1) Val Venus should get a push.
To forever doom someone as a jobber is something that I really don't encourage. Remember Funaki in the main event not too long ago, picking up the win, though he didn't come out looking strong? Well that was one amtch where he did very little, but he ended up still looking good. A couple more teaming with a main eventer, and they can suddenly push him to the mid-card with a winning streak for main events. Now imagine Val getting this push and not a scrawny Japanese guy.
Also, just take a look at a guy like Shelton Benjamin. He comes into the WWE, gets his push with Team Angle. The team breaks, he gets a little push with Haas, and he goes back to jobbing. He comes back solo, then jobs. He gets a push, then jobs. He eventually teams again, then jobs. He moves to ECW, dominates a little, but ends up jobbing when they try to move him up. Now, he's in line for a push, and I still believe him as a worthy competitor for a mid-card title, something that Val could go for too.
Outside of his push history, he still has the gimmick. He is aging, but he's kept himself in great shape. He still gets a great pop for a face jobber, something many others don't. And it's not like he can't wrestle anymore. He's never anything spectacular, but he's a pretty decent technical wrestler with the strength for some power moves.
2) Randy Orton made it better than Batista (I know you didn't say he didn't, but you stayed in-between...so I chose the side)
Right from the start of their WWE careers, Orton was better than Batista. Batista had to debut as Deacon Batista and essentially just some muscle as a bodyguard type wrestler for D-Von Dudley. His primary move, a spinebuster, yeah what a real exciting move to constantly win matches with. In fact, he was so bad that when he was moved to Raw, they felt the need to change his name and re-package him as Dave Batista. Meanwhile, Orton was a successful face character on SD right from the beginning until he was injured.
Moving into Evolution, their roles certainly show that Orton had the bigger impact. Batista was once again viewed as the muscle of the group and the enforcer. Meanwhile, Orton was considered the future. During his run in Evolution, Orton established one of the more creative and generally well-liked gimmick of being the legend killer. And the popularity shows even on forums such as these with so many usernames relating to being a legend killer. Let’s also not forget who was then made the youngest World Heavyweight Champion. What happened before this event for Batista, well the muscle was losing matches left and right.
After Orton left Evolution, he continued to feud with HHH, the leader of the group. Meanwhile, Batista was once again HHH and Flair’s bodyguard, sound familiar? After his feud with one of the best in the business in HHH, he moved onto having an extensive feud with Taker.
To generally sum-up the events after that to show Orton’s superiority, Orton is on the flagship brand. Batista, still working his way around SD. Orton has continued to rise again through the ranks and has become champion once again on Raw, which has a stacked roster. Meanwhile Batista, an over-used face on SD, has seen his push slowly declined. Orton faces greats such as HHH, Cena, among others. Batista faces Taker, and then a notable drop-off in Mark Henry and the Great Khali. Orton retained against all odds when facing HHH and Cena recently at the biggest event of the year when he had no chance in winning, which is even more impressive because he was a heel and not the underdog face that traditionally wins. Batista in his matches where he’s the underdog (against Taker), he loses.
Not only do their title histories and direction of their careers indicate that Orton has made it better for himself, but also their in-ring talents. Orton is a little bland on the mic, but has the aggressive heel promos down. Batista is more natural on the mic, but lacks passion in all his promos becoming a cookie-cutter promo cutter. Orton in the ring has developed more and more moves for his athletic stature and has one of the most surprising finishers in wrestling today. Batista has had the same power moves he’s had from the beginning and a power bomb is largely uncreative for a power guy that should be able to manipulate guys after lifts so easily.
So from the start Orton has been better than Batista, and Orton continues to improve his position within the company. Meanwhile Batista slowly slides off the map as a hated face. On the mic, nothing too special from both. However in the ring, no doubt Orton has improved more and has surpassed Batista’s ability.
3) WWE will not exist in 50 years.
When you look at the survival of a television show (I say television show as opposed to a sport because amateur wrestling really doesn't get much if any airtime, unlike some college sports), there's not much stability in it. There are many reasons that WWE might not exist in 50 years, and though they aren't individually very likely, combined there is a great chance of 1 of them happening. Here are some pretty simple and basic reasons that WWE will not exist, all of which are pretty reasonable and aren't even the unpredictable stuff that might happen.
1) Television stations might not want to carry WWE anymore. Let's face it, WWE has changed stations for their different programs a lot. I don't live in the USA, but they have changed from ones like TNN, USA (and back), whatever ECW originally was on, Spike, UPN, etc. Fact is, some stations might not have the time for WWE, or they might want to change their station's image, they might undergo management changes, etc. There are so many reasons that they might get dropped at any time to list, and that's exactly how WCW fell. Their television deal fell through, and all of a sudden they were at WWE's mercy.
2) A wrestling company doesn't need 50 years to build. Look at how long WWF/E has really been around, 40 years or so? Within the next 50, there may be another promotion to come along and get in a ratings war with WWE and they very well could win it. Hell, some may even argue that TNA is that threat, but even if they aren't, there is still plenty of time for a company to start up right now and take WWE out. Not to mention that WWE has let go of a lot of talent that could've been an asset to their company from writers, to the creative team, to wrestlers.
3) The rise of UFC and MMA in general is already having an effect on wrestling. Many fans are opting for the more real fighting and unpredictability of MMA, including myself. There are no cheesy storylines, the titles and PPVs aren't overused, and the booking of the opponents seems much more fair. Vince originally stated that UFC are not their competitors, but quickly backed off that statement and has said that they do consider them competitors now. Not only are they stealing fans and ratings from WWE, but they are also in a good position to take some of their talent. Obviously the example of Lesnar comes up and the more success that Lesnar has, the more likely talent will bolt for MMA. If Angle were younger, there's a damn good chance that he'd actually give MMA a chance. One of the top guys in the WWE at the time (Lesnar) and one of the top guys in TNA right now (Angle) could've left and made a good living, and I'm sure others will look at MMA as an alternative to the harsh schedules and sometimes getting screwed out of money.
4) Ever since the Monday Night Wars, the ratings have dropped considerably for the WWE. They went from like weekly 6 or higher ratings to now around 3. Their ratings have cut in half in about a decade (not too sure how long it actually has been). After a while of crazy stunts, fans get tired, ratings drop, revenues drop, and nobody wants to see the manufactured product anymore. Thus, WWE starts to lose money and Vince will look to get out of wrestling.
Then you have some other options like Vince wants to get out while he's ahead, and maybe neither Shane nor Steph are ready to take over full-time and they end up driving it into the gorund. Other minor options like these combined with the big 4 that I chose, and WWE could very well not exist in 50 years.
Please, feel free to respond to any comments I made, hopefully referencing every paragraph and point I made (take your time
). This is probably one of the only ways we can showcase this forum to others, and if any other guests or newly registered users want in, go on ahead.
I will start by saying that babaganoosh, you have incredible knowledge of wrestling! I really enjoy reading your posts. I learn alot.
I had seem Val Venus a few times, I believe on RAW, maybe wrong, but enjoyed the matches. I like wrestling all the way around. Yes, I have my favorites, but enjoy watching all of the matches...even if I dis-like the wrestler. When RAW is on, my husband won't even come into the room, because he knows better than to even TRY to talk to me...I won't listen.
It has to be frustrating for wrestlers to have their "ranks", and stay that way alot, and swim to keep afloat, while the higher ups just keep riding the waves and getting all of the sun. I think everyone deserves a push now and then... why anyone would want to stay like middle/low class I don't understand. I put it in perspective of money. I don't want to keep scraping bottom, just making it... I want to make it big someday. That's just my opinion though.
Even though Randy Orton was a heel, I liked him. He has wrestled fantastic matches. Again, it goes back to me just liking wrestling all the way around.
Sorry I am not a BIG debater.
I don't think wrestling will be around in 50 years. babaganoosh, every one of your reasons, I beleive hit the nail right on the head.
I had seem Val Venus a few times, I believe on RAW, maybe wrong, but enjoyed the matches. I like wrestling all the way around. Yes, I have my favorites, but enjoy watching all of the matches...even if I dis-like the wrestler. When RAW is on, my husband won't even come into the room, because he knows better than to even TRY to talk to me...I won't listen.
It has to be frustrating for wrestlers to have their "ranks", and stay that way alot, and swim to keep afloat, while the higher ups just keep riding the waves and getting all of the sun. I think everyone deserves a push now and then... why anyone would want to stay like middle/low class I don't understand. I put it in perspective of money. I don't want to keep scraping bottom, just making it... I want to make it big someday. That's just my opinion though.
Even though Randy Orton was a heel, I liked him. He has wrestled fantastic matches. Again, it goes back to me just liking wrestling all the way around.
Sorry I am not a BIG debater.
I don't think wrestling will be around in 50 years. babaganoosh, every one of your reasons, I beleive hit the nail right on the head.
Of course Randy Orton is better than Batista. I guess i just didn't word it well. But oh well, i really don't feel up to debating for awhile because of the fact i just started high school, and its a pain, so much work! So yeah, i might not be here as often, during the summer is my time where i'm real active, but for now, i'll just be appearing every so often. My schedule is very busy at the moment. lol.
QUOTE (Shayster @ Aug 11 2008, 07:52 PM)
I will start by saying that babaganoosh, you have incredible knowledge of wrestling! I really enjoy reading your posts. I learn alot.
Thanks
Always nice to know somebody actually read through my whole post 
QUOTE (Shayster @ Aug 11 2008, 07:52 PM)
It has to be frustrating for wrestlers to have their "ranks", and stay that way alot, and swim to keep afloat, while the higher ups just keep riding the waves and getting all of the sun. I think everyone deserves a push now and then... why anyone would want to stay like middle/low class I don't understand. I put it in perspective of money. I don't want to keep scraping bottom, just making it... I want to make it big someday.
Unfortunately, some people seem to be fine with just having work and not really acocmplishing much. Like I said, Val is in my eyes very capable of becoming at least a mid-carder, but he just doesn't get that push. He's certainly better than some of the wrestlers out there now. It's hard to say now because it's been a long time since he's had any significant time on the mic, but he was always one to play his gimmick out well and he had a lot of charisma. He had the voice and tone along with just a smoothness about him.
Going to the topic of money, if TNA were willing to offer him the same amount of money, he should take it. I don't imagine he is very high on the WWE payroll, and Val is a guy that TNA could push and build up. He's not going to win the major championships and have lenghty reigns, but he's a solid Tyson Tomko type guy. Comes in with a role, gets a push with some crowd reaction, but hopefully he won't be released (or did he quit). Definitely a servicable guy who won't cost top dollar.
QUOTE (Shayster @ Aug 11 2008, 07:52 PM)
Sorry I am not a BIG debater.
QUOTE (TornadoDDT @ Aug 12 2008, 10:31 PM)
So yeah, i might not be here as often, during the summer is my time where i'm real active, but for now, i'll just be appearing every so often. My schedule is very busy at the moment. lol.
Anybody else want to give my previous post a crack? Slash, I'm looking in your direction since you made the thread
Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Yes I think so. He has been around as jobber for too long
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Yes I think Orton is doing better than Batista. Batista cannot carry a match by himself. Orton can headline a match better. I do not like Orton but he gets the job done better than Batista.
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
yes it will still be around.
Yes I think so. He has been around as jobber for too long
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Yes I think Orton is doing better than Batista. Batista cannot carry a match by himself. Orton can headline a match better. I do not like Orton but he gets the job done better than Batista.
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
yes it will still be around.
QUOTE (babaganoosh @ Aug 7 2008, 11:02 PM)
Let's see where you guys stand on these topics (hopefully not on my side ) and what kind of discussion we can get out.
Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
) and what kind of discussion we can get out.Does Val Venus deserve a push?
Has Randy Orton has made a better career for himself when compared to Batista?
Will WWE still exist in 50 years?
The more responses the better of course
no, Hell no, and i hope so
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