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Cita
with the dumbing down of Monk, let's face it the first two years were amazing.. along the lines of Columbo, we waited for the "Gotcha" moment. Writers (Tony) are you reading this????? Please get back to the original formula.
BlondBomb10
QUOTE (Cita @ Jul 19 2008, 10:45 AM) *
with the dumbing down of Monk, let's face it the first two years were amazing.. along the lines of Columbo, we waited for the "Gotcha" moment. Writers (Tony) are you reading this????? Please get back to the original formula.

To do that might mean bringing Sharona back!
Bratcat
QUOTE (BlondBomb10 @ Jul 19 2008, 11:52 AM) *
To do that might mean bringing Sharona back!


I agree. Besides, I think it's "natural" for Monk to make progress in his therapy. To not have him change at all would make the series stale and boring. Of course, to have him too normal would ruin the character. I would like to see more episodes where Trudy is mentioned. What happened to the obsession with finding her killer???
Tonyfan
QUOTE (Cita @ Jul 19 2008, 09:45 AM) *
with the dumbing down of Monk, let's face it the first two years were amazing.. along the lines of Columbo, we waited for the "Gotcha" moment. Writers (Tony) are you reading this????? Please get back to the original formula.



Yes,i was missing something during this episode, i want the "old" Monk back huh.gif
Monkster100
QUOTE (Tonyfan @ Jul 19 2008, 01:43 PM) *
Yes,i was missing something during this episode, i want the "old" Monk back huh.gif


This episode was supposed to be different. Its purpose was to deal with the grief of losing Dr. Kroger. This episode accomplished its purposed; it dealt with Stanley Kamel's death beautifully. Of course, the mystery had to take a backseat to this important issue. Just wait for next week's episode.
LIMAMA1956
QUOTE (Monkster100 @ Jul 19 2008, 02:58 PM) *
This episode was supposed to be different. Its purpose was to deal with the grief of losing Dr. Kroger. This episode accomplished its purposed; it dealt with Stanley Kamel's death beautifully. Of course, the mystery had to take a backseat to this important issue. Just wait for next week's episode.


I don't think it dealt with losing Dr. Kroger at all. It was handled very perfunctory...I cannot imagine the Monk we've come to love settle on a shrink so quickly. The writers really could have mined this for drama/comedic gold. We should have seen Monk AGONIZE over this. We didn't.
Bratcat
I'm still unsure about the first episode of this season.

If Monk was in a slightly dissociative state with the loss of Dr. Kroger, then it makes sense. But it was so subtle it would be hard to see what he was going through. They said it had been five weeks since his passing, so Monk would have had time to adjust a bit. A dissociation would explain why he didn't react to sitting on the stairs in the rubble and such. It would also explain why he accepted the new therapist so readily. Snapping out of the dissociation would put him in conflict with all these things, and we'd see more of the old Monk. But the loss of Kroger would change him. It's a turning point in his recovery.

If on the other hand (and probably more likely) he was toned down because it was a respectful tribute, then I think that's okay. To have him too crazy on a tribute show to a deceased friend and cast member would be over the top and in bad taste, in my opinion.

But it could also be that the writers have run out of ideas. Hope not. If Natalie suddenly gets pregnant, or if she and Monk get married, then we know they are out of ideas, and the show is about to die. Let's hope the writers are smarter than that.
BlondBomb10
QUOTE (Bratcat @ Jul 20 2008, 10:44 AM) *
I'm still unsure about the first episode of this season.

If Monk was in a slightly dissociative state with the loss of Dr. Kroger, then it makes sense. But it was so subtle it would be hard to see what he was going through. They said it had been five weeks since his passing, so Monk would have had time to adjust a bit. A dissociation would explain why he didn't react to sitting on the stairs in the rubble and such. It would also explain why he accepted the new therapist so readily. Snapping out of the dissociation would put him in conflict with all these things, and we'd see more of the old Monk. But the loss of Kroger would change him. It's a turning point in his recovery.

If on the other hand (and probably more likely) he was toned down because it was a respectful tribute, then I think that's okay. To have him too crazy on a tribute show to a deceased friend and cast member would be over the top and in bad taste, in my opinion.

But it could also be that the writers have run out of ideas. Hope not. If Natalie suddenly gets pregnant, or if she and Monk get married, then we know they are out of ideas, and the show is about to die. Let's hope the writers are smarter than that.

This is a very good explanation for what we saw in the episode.
LIMAMA1956
I do think TS underplayed it...perhaps a bit too much.

Tonyfan
QUOTE (LIMAMA1956 @ Jul 20 2008, 10:20 AM) *
I do think TS underplayed it...perhaps a bit too much.



I disagree with you, Tony was the only good thing in this episode!! dry.gif
yvette88
QUOTE (Tonyfan @ Jul 20 2008, 03:38 PM) *
I disagree with you, Tony was the only good thing in this episode!! dry.gif



Tony seemed out of sorts to me but he still did a great job. I still think there was just too much going on and too much that had happened--everyone seemed a little out of sync. I've already watched the episode about 10 times. smile.gif
kees_lady
QUOTE (yvette88 @ Jul 20 2008, 02:46 PM) *
Tony seemed out of sorts to me but he still did a great job. I still think there was just too much going on and too much that had happened--everyone seemed a little out of sync. I've already watched the episode about 10 times. smile.gif


I wonder, has everyone forgotten this script was written right after the writers strike and Stanley Kamel's passing (see I use that word, passing, it sounds so much better than dropped dead, died) and they were in a hurry to get it all on film to meet the season opening deadline? Trying to fit everything into 45 minutes of screen time is a pretty tough job, like to see anyone of you would-be writers who have criticized this episode do any better and still maintain a good mystery, a tribute, a deadline, film in the can for a 45 minute episode and write really, really good diaglog for each of the charactors, a crime, the solving of the crime, add the OCD angle, the disassociation, finding and finally meeting Dr. Bell....and all your other complaints...

Forget it, you couldn't do it either so bash away.................it's not worth my time to try to be logical about this whole argument with people who want to believe they are better than a team who has been together for over 6 years, have written a hit series with complex aspects for the main character.
Tonyfan
QUOTE (kees_lady @ Jul 21 2008, 01:24 AM) *
I wonder, has everyone forgotten this script was written right after the writers strike and Stanley Kamel's passing (see I use that word, passing, it sounds so much better than dropped dead, died) and they were in a hurry to get it all on film to meet the season opening deadline? Trying to fit everything into 45 minutes of screen time is a pretty tough job, like to see anyone of you would-be writers who have criticized this episode do any better and still maintain a good mystery, a tribute, a deadline, film in the can for a 45 minute episode and write really, really good diaglog for each of the charactors, a crime, the solving of the crime, add the OCD angle, the disassociation, finding and finally meeting Dr. Bell....and all your other complaints...

Forget it, you couldn't do it either so bash away.................it's not worth my time to try to be logical about this whole argument with people who want to believe they are better than a team who has been together for over 6 years, have written a hit series with complex aspects for the main character.


I totally agree with you
They are the best writers! smile.gif
Just the time is the biggest enemy of everybody
yvette88
QUOTE (kees_lady @ Jul 21 2008, 02:24 AM) *
...with complex aspects for the main character.


Not just the main character. I've said this before--although not featured in every episode, they've developed complex aspects for the supporting characters as well, not just backstory and background. That gives the show an awful lot of depth that many other shows don't have.

I reminded people of this in another post as well: (in chronological order....) They just got over a writer's strike, Stanley passed away, and an actor's strike loomed (news reported that a lot of studios, if not all studios, were pushing production in case everything was about to come to a screeching halt.) Just getting this episode produced had to be like counting feathers in a windstorm. People can poke holes in it if they want, and I myself won't say it doesn't have its soft spots but I've watched it over and over since it aired. I loved it. Never said it was perfect--I haven't seen a show yet that was--but I loved it. I wouldn't keep replaying it if it wasn't. smile.gif
MonksDaBomb
QUOTE (kees_lady @ Jul 21 2008, 02:24 AM) *
I wonder, has everyone forgotten this script was written right after the writers strike and Stanley Kamel's passing (see I use that word, passing, it sounds so much better than dropped dead, died) and they were in a hurry to get it all on film to meet the season opening deadline? Trying to fit everything into 45 minutes of screen time is a pretty tough job, like to see anyone of you would-be writers who have criticized this episode do any better and still maintain a good mystery, a tribute, a deadline, film in the can for a 45 minute episode and write really, really good diaglog for each of the charactors, a crime, the solving of the crime, add the OCD angle, the disassociation, finding and finally meeting Dr. Bell....and all your other complaints...

Forget it, you couldn't do it either so bash away.................it's not worth my time to try to be logical about this whole argument with people who want to believe they are better than a team who has been together for over 6 years, have written a hit series with complex aspects for the main character.


Couldn't have said it better myself. 45 minutes is still an awful short amount of time for a "regular" episode (murder, Monk's OCD, solving it, etc.); 45 minutes for a show that had to deal with a lot of change (explaining why Dr. Kroger isn't there, getting a new therapist, being pleased with new therapist on top of the regular things) is like 10 minutes. I really liked the new episode but feel Monk will be really back on top this week when things are back to normal.
LIMAMA1956
QUOTE (Cita @ Jul 19 2008, 10:45 AM) *
with the dumbing down of Monk, let's face it the first two years were amazing.. along the lines of Columbo, we waited for the "Gotcha" moment. Writers (Tony) are you reading this????? Please get back to the original formula.


I don't know if I would call it a "dumbing down" per se, but there clearly has been a shift in tone and style from the first years. And I do think that's a natural progression in a long running show...the characters have to grow, evolve, etc. Let's face it, having eppy's where Monk does nothing but talk to the departed Trudy would get boring awful fast.
Kawasakifan
QUOTE (LIMAMA1956 @ Jul 21 2008, 11:51 PM) *
I don't know if I would call it a "dumbing down" per se, but there clearly has been a shift in tone and style from the first years. And I do think that's a natural progression in a long running show...the characters have to grow, evolve, etc. Let's face it, having eppy's where Monk does nothing but talk to the departed Trudy would get boring awful fast.



I would like to make three points; (1), the dumbing down criticism was popular a few years ago for there was clearly a change in approach which purists who placed priority on the tightly constructed crime plots of the storyline that characterized many of the early episodes vocerifously supported and deserted when the emphasis changed and (2) although I would like to believe that what has happened was due to a natural progression, I feel that some of the change was forced having been simply brought on by the sudden departure of Sharona and the writers finally discovering a persona that suited the visual image of Traylor while (3) the de-emphasis on solving Trudy's murder may be do to the fact that the writers never really expected the series to be this successful so when it did they had to search for and fortunately found other themes to explore that centered less on Trudy and more on Monk's abnormalities - a fortuitious discovery that did anger some fans but found acceptance with many more and thus led to the show's unprecedended popularity - at least till the first episode of Season 7.
jujubead
QUOTE (Cita @ Jul 19 2008, 10:45 AM) *
with the dumbing down of Monk, let's face it the first two years were amazing.. along the lines of Columbo, we waited for the "Gotcha" moment. Writers (Tony) are you reading this????? Please get back to the original formula.


I agree. Also we need Sharona back. She used to take care of him and really "care for" him. Natalie just exists.
LIMAMA1956
QUOTE (Kawasakifan @ Jul 21 2008, 11:24 AM) *
I would like to make three points; (1), the dumbing down criticism was popular a few years ago for there was clearly a change in approach which purists who placed priority on the tightly constructed crime plots of the storyline that characterized many of the early episodes vocerifously supported and deserted when the emphasis changed and (2) although I would like to believe that what has happened was due to a natural progression, I feel that some of the change was forced having been simply brought on by the sudden departure of Sharona and the writers finally discovering a persona that suited the visual image of Traylor while (3) the de-emphasis on solving Trudy's murder may be do to the fact that the writers never really expected the series to be this successful so when it did they had to search for and fortunately found other themes to explore that centered less on Trudy and more on Monk's abnormalities - a fortuitious discovery that did anger some fans but found acceptance with many more and thus led to the show's unprecedended popularity - at least till the first episode of Season 7.


Many good points, Kawa. Thanks!
Bratcat
QUOTE (LIMAMA1956 @ Jul 21 2008, 10:51 AM) *
I don't know if I would call it a "dumbing down" per se, but there clearly has been a shift in tone and style from the first years. And I do think that's a natural progression in a long running show...the characters have to grow, evolve, etc. Let's face it, having eppy's where Monk does nothing but talk to the departed Trudy would get boring awful fast.



I agree. I love the way the characters have developed. They all have more depth to them, and that makes me CARE about what happens to them. I think that's why the show is so successful.

I also agree that they all have gone through a lot to produce this episode. I had not heard of Stanley Kamel's passing until it was mentioned in the episode, and I was shocked and saddened by the news. If the episode had been more of the usual Monk, I probably would have tuned out. I thought it was very respectful. And Tony's portrayal reflected much of what I was feeling. I thought he was brilliant, as usual.

We don't know what's going on there...we can only speculate. I think we should just hang in there and see where they go from here.
Monkish1969
I for one am not in favor of Sharona returning to the show but I would like to see a return to more mystery. I also don't want to lose the character developement that has taken place in the show. 45 minutes in not much time, that I agree with, but seriously, you folks who liked this first episode really need to leave those of us who didn't like it alone.

I have been wondering if maybe they need to start making monk movies instead of a weekly tv show. 4 two hour movies a year would, in my opinion, give everybody what they want. Character development and a tight mystery. That is what I would like to see after this season.
NataliesBuddy
Dumbing down of Monk the character? I haven't notice, didn't notice in the first episode of the new season. I will watch for it in the next episode.

As to my impression of a dumbing down of the show itself... I hope not. But we must remember in the early seasons of Diagnosis Murder each episode was a good, solid and intriguing murder mystery and by its end the surrounding characters were sacked and each episode's mystery was simplicity itself. What seemed to me a "keep it simple for the dolt audience" switch. I sure hope that's not where we're headed here.
Bratcat
QUOTE (Monkish1969 @ Jul 21 2008, 12:10 PM) *
I for one am not in favor of Sharona returning to the show but I would like to see a return to more mystery. I also don't want to lose the character developement that has taken place in the show. 45 minutes in not much time, that I agree with, but seriously, you folks who liked this first episode really need to leave those of us who didn't like it alone.

I have been wondering if maybe they need to start making monk movies instead of a weekly tv show. 4 two hour movies a year would, in my opinion, give everybody what they want. Character development and a tight mystery. That is what I would like to see after this season.


Oh, I would LOVE that! But I'd still like the weekly series....am I asking for too much here? rolleyes.gif

As for the first episode, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we should all respect that. That's the way art is: some forms appeal to one group but not another. Doesn't mean the art is bad. Just not for everyone. That's the magic of any art form.
LIMAMA1956
From the way I understand the "writer's room" works at MONK, I could be wrong, is that while some ideas are developed "in house", others are pitched by freelancers who are invited to come in usually with a couple of ideas (I got this directly from Lee Goldberg) which are then bounced around. Given the schedule, they do this in advance, the writers go off to do their thing, first drafts, rewrites, polishes, etc.

Now the WGA strike ended on February 12, 2008. Technically, WGA members were supposed to put their pencils down during the strike. However, it's also pretty well known in the writing community that many still worked on specs and such. And if you're not in the WGA, the strike didn't apply. And while the strike was on, execs and showrunners, technically, could still take meetings. Some did, some didn't.

So was MR. MONK BUYS A HOUSE actually written after the strike? Without asking the writers, it's hard to say, however, it's more likely that the IDEA was conceived months before the strike, the first draft was probably written close to that point (or maybe even during it, who knows) and then tweaked after SK's passing. It could also very well be that the script was written right after the strike ended, and given the quick turnaround nature of TV writing, this wouldn't be unusual either.



monkophile1
QUOTE (kees_lady @ Jul 21 2008, 01:24 AM) *
I wonder, has everyone forgotten this script was written right after the writers strike and Stanley Kamel's passing (see I use that word, passing, it sounds so much better than dropped dead, died) and they were in a hurry to get it all on film to meet the season opening deadline? Trying to fit everything into 45 minutes of screen time is a pretty tough job, like to see anyone of you would-be writers who have criticized this episode do any better and still maintain a good mystery, a tribute, a deadline, film in the can for a 45 minute episode and write really, really good diaglog for each of the charactors, a crime, the solving of the crime, add the OCD angle, the disassociation, finding and finally meeting Dr. Bell....and all your other complaints...

Forget it, you couldn't do it either so bash away.................it's not worth my time to try to be logical about this whole argument with people who want to believe they are better than a team who has been together for over 6 years, have written a hit series with complex aspects for the main character.



I think you make some great points - so much was going on at one time with deadlines staring at them. I wanted to point out that Tony says that at the start of a new season it takes the actors one or two shows to "find" their characters again (my words, not his). He is brilliant at Monk, but even he needs to get immersed in the character again.

I enjoyed the episode and I love the way it honored Dr. Kroger without going over the top.
And....Friday's coming. Another new episode!!! Woo hoo!
BfloGal
QUOTE (monkophile1 @ Jul 22 2008, 10:09 AM) *
I think you make some great points - so much was going on at one time with deadlines staring at them. I wanted to point out that Tony says that at the start of a new season it takes the actors one or two shows to "find" their characters again (my words, not his). He is brilliant at Monk, but even he needs to get immersed in the character again.


You know, I had another thought about this -- another possible reason for Tony's supposed understated performance.

I mean -- we all saw New Shrink, and had expectations about how Monk might react to the death of Dr. K-- and I suppose I, for one, thought he would be in greater visible distress, even after five weeks' time.

But Monk going off the wall in New Shrink (the five stages of grief loop, the stalking, and the 'we are all bereft' scene) was a comic performance played for laughs. It was different when Stanley Kamel was alive. I'm wondering if a hyper reaction (that would seem more in character for Monk) would have been considered exploitation by TPTB.

Just a thought...




Bratcat
QUOTE (BfloGal @ Jul 22 2008, 09:45 AM) *
You know, I had another thought about this -- another possible reason for Tony's supposed understated performance.

I mean -- we all saw New Shrink, and had expectations about how Monk might react to the death of Dr. K-- and I suppose I, for one, thought he would be in greater visible distress, even after five weeks' time.

But Monk going off the wall in New Shrink (the five stages of grief loop, the stalking, and the 'we are all bereft' scene) was a comic performance played for laughs. It was different when Stanley Kamel was alive. I'm wondering if a hyper reaction (that would seem more in character for Monk) would have been considered exploitation by TPTB.

Just a thought...


I think you're right.
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