A classic sign of a sociopath is his manipulative skills. You've all heard it. And Bobby's a great manipulator. So, is there a chance he's a sociopath? Working for the good guys? I realized I would still love him if he were, but I honestly can't decide.

Did you see him in Betrayed, stacking that stuff at the gym? I see him more as being OCD.

No...sociopaths lack empathy for others and I could go on all day listing eps in which Goren shows empathy for others (there were a lot of these just in Season 1 alone)

The Vault

I agree, and sociopaths are narcissistic too (selfish, me-first-and-only-me attitude). If anything, BG denies his needs to his detriment. Such as his caretaking of his mom, giving his brother his coat, trying to rescue his nephew, not to mention his concern for the victims and even the perps.

Also he doesn't manipulate out of self intrest. He does it for his mission in life, bringing down the bad guys. He doesn't manipulate outside of that... like with Eames or the Captain, even though it might make his life easier to do so. Like Eames said on the stand, "He is an ethical person". That is one thing you can't say about a sociopath.

Not a sociopath, just brilliant. I do think VDO has Robert walk a tight line and Robert does wear his emotions firmly on his sleeve.

I totally agree. Bobby's not a true sociopath in that he does in fact feel empathy for others and rarely puts his own personal well being first.

However, one could argue that Bobby fears he's a borderline sociopath and thus overcompensates by risking his health to protect others to prove to himself that he's not a sociopath. Which is a whole other form of narcissism.

One thing that defines sociopathy is the disregard for social mores and morality. A certain amount of hedonistic and anti-social behavior are evidenced in sociopaths. Goren does not evidence this. There is a gentleman by the name of Dombrowski that posits that hyperintelligent individuals evidence something called hypersensitivity. This trait can mimic OCD, ADHS, and some forms of anti-social behavior because the subject is overly perceptive of that that is around him. The subject must then choose the input and stimuli that are received or else be easily overwhelmed, i.e. Goren's meltdowns when the situation presents him with no choice that does not, from his overly sensitive perspective, have an acceptable outcome. This attitude and perception allows for Goren to find information in the affect of others, and draw on it.

That manipulation is only an interogation technique that is taught in any criminal justice class, only some are more estute at the art of manipulating a subject into creating a web of decite that will serve to entangle them. Actors and lawyers use the same challenge of conventional perception in their crafts as well.

Common so what,he like things tidy!!That is Bobby!!He can help it!!I like to do that,too!!Bobby is not going far as Monk!!Now Monk is..well..I don't like hi too much!!

Funny, Quaxo, that's exactly what I'm thinking!



Wait, are you saying he IS a sociopath? I couldn't tell.

WORD!!
Bobby is brave and not selfish!!

Bobby is OCD! He's very neat in apperance, and likes his things where he puts them! Like me in his bed!!! LOL!!!!

It's so good to have you back, Krod!

Hmmmm.......all of you have posted good points.
I will say this....I agree, he's not a sociopath. And he's painfully aware of the possibility of mental illness. He's an unusually perceptive person. Perhaps hypersensitivity may be closer to describing him....will have to think on this further.

Sorry, I spent the last few years dealing with people who discuss educational theory and psychology so I tend to jump off in the middle of things and think that people will understand. My husband just cocks his head to the side like a dog, glazes over, and tells me to "speak English not academic."

Goren disregards social conventions, not morals and ethics; he is definitely not a sociopath.

He displays several traits that "cognitively superior" individuals often have. And as the saying goes, "there is a fine line between genius and insanity." With a family history of mental instability and illness, he would naturally tend to want to order his world so as to minimize the possibility of a triggering event or crisis.

A history of mental illness usually results in hypervigilence or denial in offspring or relations. We can see that Goren has embraced the hypervigilence model of behavior. He walks a fine line doing what he has to for his job or his responsibilities. But likewise, he is also hypersensitive to the world around him and prone to over-focus on events or facts. This would explain the behavior of touching things that interest him, manipulating those around him to find the information that will answer his questions, sitting on a desk and literally poking at dead things, or pointing out that Ross is reductive to his face. It also results in a fear that some day there will be someone with a news camera interviewing a neighbor that invariably begins with the statement, "He was such a nice, quiet young man. Always keeping things neat, we cannot believe that he would ever...(fill in the blank with something horrifically devient that you want to...)."

The hyperfocus also creates incindiary moments where the world overwhelms and creates a riptide that threatens the fragile sanity that Goren questions daily. Most people get mad (originally meaning out of ones mind temporarily) and do something that he may or may not regret (shout at a spouse or a workmate) and then feel bad apologize and go on with his life. Goren, however, reacts as any normal person might but then becomes hyperfocused on the event causing more damage to himself and his relationships with others because of the negative spiral that results. It is not wallowing in self-pity but rather realizing that he screwed up, that people are upset, that he will never be able to take it back, that these things are why people think him a "wack job," and then he concentrates all of his abilities on questioning his stability and sanity.

I'll stop now because I am drifting back into academicese, sorry it is such a force of habit when I sit down with a computer keyboard. I promise not to type for 150 pages for you though. Well, I can try to promise that. You can all just tell me to shut up any time, all of my friends do. That and tell me to stop using words that they have to go to the "BIG" dictionary to look up.

teach, I get it! That was a good post.....and I think you've nailed it about Our Bobby. Guess I need to go to the basement and dust off the psych books from nursing school and refresh myself on a few things.....

teach, that was a great post. Welcome to the board. I'm going to enjoy your posts a lot, I think!

I don't think Bobby is a sociopath. He is not even socially awkward. He knows how to behave with different types of people, and social situations. He is also very gentle, that is why he is so effective in interviews. Like everybody else, he gets upset and angry. I can empathize with him on The War at Home, although his could have behaved better towards his superiors. I guess we all react differently under stress. Now, in the last few years poor Bobby has had to deal with a lot of stressful situations, in addition to having a stressful job.
I am not sure how the idea that Goren has psychological problems came about. I think he is a very normal person. He is just so highly intelligent that people may be threatened by this, like the Chief of Ds.
I believe Goren is as normal as any of us, he is just highly intelligent, sensitive and perceptive.

I appreciate the sentiment, I would however warn you that I am a history and English teacher and can be as stimulating and boring as both combined. (All turn and run for the exit, only to find that the path is blocked by arcane tomes and decrepid maps. Turning aroung, seeking an alternate exit they see blackboards filled with plot curves and timelines. The panicked throng then begins to scale a large pile of worksheets on some little known event to find a stack of young readers that allows egress into the hallway.) See, I told you; intriguing but longwinded and pedantic.

::SIGH:: my 1st love is history, wanted to be a history teacher, but fate intervened and now I'm a RN. Welcome to the boards!

Fear not... I can skim with the best of 'em. I enjoyed your short analysis of our favorite detective. Welcome!

Agreed!



again, agreed!


Good points.



KRod, gf, you crack me up!...I like MY things where I put them too...and I tend to be organized, to the point of annoying myself sometimes...



wow! great post...I do not think Goren is sociopath...he is just highly intelligent and highly focused.

He has crazy ideas sometimes, but no way he is a sociopath

I think he's austic, with ausburgers. But just my opinion. It's the way he acted in the second season is what got me. It doesn't always have to be Wally like to be ausburgers. Sometimes it's just weird.

*CIObbESeSSeD*

You are right Jazz!

No, I don't think he has Aspberger's, or he would have said so when dealing with Wally, to empathize with him.

I think teach is more correct than saying he has Aspberger's Syndrome.

I also think his childhood, and closing himself off to protect himself, is part of the problem -- he isn't very "socialized" in some ways, if that makes sense. His wounded childhood is what makes him so good at empathizing with others.

He's no sociopath, no way. And, around here at least, he's PERFECT just the way he is!

What's the deal with Wally? That doesn't make him a sociopath! It makes Bobby kind and caring, although sometimes he has a hard time showing it.

I wouldn't say that Bobby has Asperger's, he's reads and expresses too much non-verbally. At most he'd be considered borderline, displaying some Asperger's traits but not enough to be imparing socially. A lot of bright people tend to display Asperger's traits.

I once read he was pseudo-Aspbergers. Whatever that means.

He's on the list of fictional characters "described by the authors as being on the autistic spectrum" on wikipedia here. Goren has some of the mild symptoms of Autism according to a part in wikipedia under Characteristics, "Autism is distinguished by a pattern of symptoms rather than one single symptom. The main characteristics are impairments in social interaction, impairments in communication, restricted interests and repetitive behavior." Don't have time to talk more about it, and wikipedia was the fastest source, but Goren is definetely not a sociopath if you read the symptoms.

Umm . . . I think I put that there. How can we find out for sure?

Okay, so I guess that I must now divulge that I am a teacher of cognitively superior students, aka the gifted kids. (My new campaign is that "it is cool to be smart") So I can explain the "autistic" traits of Goren as follows:

1. Unorthodox behavior in a social setting - because of the developmental patterns of these individuals, social conventions are often not learned. Gifted students often spend time with adults and not their same aged peers. This results in a lack of social graces because adults allow a child that is wise beyond their years a certain amount of idosyncratic behavior (the isn't it cute factor). Because of this social norms are often left to be learned later in life if at all.

2. Inappropriate or extreme emotional reactions - This is often the result of assymetrical development, the intellect grows and develops but certain emotional coping mechanisms lag behind. Because a child of this nature spends more time reacting to intellectual stimuli and, again, seeks out his intellectual peers and not same age peers, the child does not learn the restraint necessary or the coping skills are not developed as quickly or as thoroughly as those around them.

3. Often the very intelligent have trouble dealing with things that they cannot immediately understand. Often this takes the form of shutting down or melting down, the brain cannot order the information, the normal state of the brain is chaos but the genius often has a refined control of the brain and keeps it ordered. If the world cannot be ordered, it does not necessarily mean that the genius loses control if he can intellectually understand why the stimuli cannot fit. But the lack of control over stimuli and the lack of ability to manipulate the brain to accept it cause a stressor that might induce that reaction.

4. When gifted students go to high school and are bored or troubled, they are the biggest mischief makers. The biology lab is a place to shock the adults that no longer find you cute or smart but just a smart***. Teachers often begin to feel threatened because they are no longer able to read more and answer the questions of gifted students. (Bored and gifted students are the ones that moved the biology teachers car to the greenhouse, technically it could not be done without breaking things but a few bright students and a few tools and VW under glass) Many high school students get sick of the "baby genius" track and jump off, genius combined with adolescent rebellion can result in interesting results.

Often hyperintelligent individuals are mistaken for savants, OCD, and autistics if they are in unfamiliar surroundings.

Aspburger Syndrome is usually accompanied by high intellect and ordered, even OCD behavior. However, a primary symptom of the disorder it a lack of empathy and emotional response to external stimuli. Goren has proven that he has alarming amounts of empathy (Four Horsemen) and perception, this would preclude an inclination towards Aspburger's.

(Snoring has arisen from several seats in the audience, and teach is blissfully ignorant of this. A cricket chirps and she lays her dry erase marker in the tray and walks away.)

Just to let you know, I can do this but my husband has to balance my checkbook. ("Math is hard," she states in her best bimbette voice, twirling a lock of hair on her index finger with her head cocked slightly to the side.)

So, what is Bobby's issue? Is it possible to develop empathy? Or, have some traits but not all of them? That's been my own explanation for years.

The only reason I can balance my checkbook AT ALL is because I have Quicken software.......::stands next to teach twirling her BLONDE hair and cocking her head to the side as well:: Math IS hard! I'm 40 years old, and have just now gotten the hang of 5th grade math!

Thank goodness The Hubby is a math loving chemical engineer who can answer all the math questions for The Son. The Princess will be starting 2nd grade, I can "do" second grade math!

I LOVED reading your explanation. My minor is Psychology; I was one class away from a Sociology minor too.....the "maj" is Speech Communication.........

The "issue" for Goren is that he is extremely bright, had little socialization with his peer group when he was younger, has learned to ignore those that find him intimidating or unnerving, and internalizes anything that is too difficult for him to place within his existing scheme (framework in the mind that allows us to make order out of the chaos of information that we receive). In otherwords, he is just a smart kid that never learned rules 1 and 2. Rule #1 - sometimes you must be able to play with others; Rule #2 - Fools are never as foolish as they appear, and they might even control your destiny; so suffer them lightly.

And to flashymom - I did well with math, but decided that to learn it other than the manditory classes was a waste of my time and brain capacity. Instead, I took philosophy and courses about the women of the Renaissance (15 pages on the monastic tradition of women in the 15th and 16th century - riveting). I spend my time reading theories of intelligence and learning capabilities and enjoy the research of the dual exceptionalities - learning disabilities and disorders in students with intellectual gifts. SO I am just a geek overall, and my sons keep saying that they are doomed to geekdom through genetics.

IMO, it's his acting ability! He is brilliant at what he does, and it shows!

(This is very long, so if you want to read it, grab some popcorn.)

Thanks so much for explaining, teach I was not bored with it, it's an interesting topic. I don't think Goren can be a perfect example of a particular syndrome or disorder, because 1. He is not real, he is a fictional character, so the writers can create him to be anything 2. We do not know for sure whether Vincent or the writers chose Goren to have a particular disorder/other or if they created him to have a variety of symptoms that do not fit into one particular category or may not make sense in real life. Of course, the writers had to have studied and have their facts straight, but they could have made Goren have a variety of, but not all, symptoms, to create the character they wanted.

Goren is not the manipulative type as of a sociopath, he is just doing his job as a detective. He even said in Purgatory that he is allowed to lie to criminals. He doesn't lie or "con" anyone else other than them, he just wants to get the truth. I think sometimes he can just uses his power to get other people to do what he wants, but isn't conscience that it may hurt people (remember he was acting cheery with his mom in the hospital, just to get that picture of Mark?). He is overly careful in dealing with different people, and seems sort of like a robot, trying to figure how to please people or not make them angry like he is the psychologist and they are all his patients.

He seems perfectly fine in talking to Lewis or his other friends about favors or work to Eames and the Captain, but seems awkward when talking about personal things. He is careful in not revealing too much information about himself, so he doesn't and it makes him appear anti-social. I don't think he has much experience in dealing with other people rather than criminals, so because that is mostly his life, it is like he doesn't feel the need to deal with other people if it doesn't help with his job. When he does not know how to encounter a situation foreign to him, he may explode like in War at Home and just feel confused. That seems like a normal thing to do, though, I don't think everything he does means he has pyschological problems.

It's obvious that he has a lot of empathy, and even has contempt for those who have no shame or guilt, so you can cross that off the list. He is obviously not a narcissist, but he does seem to be a little self-absorbed. In the earlier seasons, it seemed like he was living in his own world, blocking everybody out and just being very distant except on certain occasions. He's grown since then, but still shows signs of it, like it's all underneath but he doesn't know it.

Underneath, Goren is an ethical person, and he may have ended up like his father or brother if he was not the moral person he is, and maybe because he didn't want to be like them, he wanted to be different. I think he has empathy for those with psychological problems because of his mother. He may not have been like that before, but it may have began when he started studying about schizophrenics like her. That may have lead him to study about more disorders and problems, and so it grew more and more as he learned more about it and had to deal with people with them.

There is a lot more to cover, but I still do not think he is a sociopath, not even borderline. Now I don't think he has autism or aspergers, either, maybe in the mildest form. He may show signs or symptoms of them, but a lot of his "problems" can be explained without having to be a disorder. He is quirky, but that doesn't mean he has OCD or anything (Monk defintely has OCD .) I think the writers made him to be a complex and mysterious character that can't be explained perfectly in textbooks. It makes for great TV.
I'll have to read more about aspergers, autism OCD etc. I can get a better picture. Maybe teach can teach me You'll have to be patient with me with all these psychological things, because I am not an expert on it.

By the way, I thought Wally's symptoms were exaggerated for the show, not exactly like in real life. Oh and the part you put about gifted students reminded me when Goren said, "actually my Biology teacher didn't think I was fun at all." Maybe he was a smart alek and he wasn't popular with his students. And maybe because he is so smart, people avoid him and so he doesn't socialize as much.

Thanks for reading.

As one of those "gifted" kids, I totally concur with everything you just said. Now if only someone had laid it out so logically when I was in middle school xP. We also have to consider that Bobby was coming from a time period when the "gifted/talented" programs were still a new thing, so his brightness might never have been realized in school, so he didn't get to at least socialize in a smaller setting with kids who have the same issues/brilliance

Thanks teach! I enjoyed your posts immensely.

You are right, GAT programs were nearly non-existant and if the child was so smart that he made his own fun he was labeled a problem not a potentially brilliant student.



It is nice to know that I am not boring everyone to death with my assessment of a fictional character (for those of you who did not realize this, you can mitigate the system shock by placing your fingers in your ears and chanting - Bobby is real, Alex is real, and much to Goren's dismay, Ross is real...).

Yeah, but I don't see this as nearly as important in his formative years as was the fact that he was abandoned by his father and alternately abused and neglected by a mentally ill mother for whom he felt responsible. Supportive school programs are great, but in the hierarchy of needs it's way less important than a loving and stable homelife. It's pretty amazing he ended up as well as he did. As Gage said, he could have gone either way.

Or so it seems after watching season two of Dexter. That show makes me think Goren was one bloodbath short of Dexterhood... lol.

Yes, I agree, first comes the family life, but if one has a bad family life they can substitute with a strong social family. A GAT kid is behind the eight ball when it comes to social interaction amongst age-group peers.

So he sort of got double-whammied.

WHAT??!???!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Goren isn't REAL????? LOL! LOVE your suggestion, esp that last part: "much to Goren's dismay, Ross is real".....hee hee!

Ah, Maslow, gotta love it and Piaget, not so much, but it is true that in order to learn effectively the basic needs of the child must be met. That is why so many schools tout a safe environment, a primary need. The deal with GAT programs now is to teach students to work to their potential in a positive manner. I am sure with the references to being sent to the school psychologist prove that they referred Goren to the office rather than deal with him.




More than double-whammied, he got a Santa's sack full of whammies. History of mental illness including self-medicating creating a less than stable home life, high intelligence in an era when the weird kid with the brains was not acceptable (the fifties and sixties emphasized conformity and excellence within that conformity - talk about an oxymoron), asymetrical development (brains before emotions), and no support system (friends are ok, but when your a kid you need adults to comfort and support you). Santa stuffed his stocking with coal and then left it giftwrapped under the tree just to make sure.

Ugh. I HATE that show. No offense to those who watch but, a protagonist who's a serial killer--The Shield is bad enough. No way would Goren ever have become like Dexter. I refuse to believe it.

LOL. Yes, yes yes yes. Agreed. I had a supportive family and a semi-tolerant school system (well, we had a program at least) and I still ended up pretty "quirky". I can't imagine how much his school years sucked, and they thought I was going to end up shooting the school.

Oh I dunno.... some traumatic event that permanently shut down his ability to feel normal emotions or empathize and set up a deep rage and lack of confidence in the law to keep people safe... vigilante killer doesn't seem like that big of a stretch.

I get how you feel. Dexter isn't a show everyone would enjoy, that's for sure! Aside from the great writing and acting by Michael Hall, I'm just fascinated it ever got made. Can you imagine the pitch? How about a show with the most anti-antihero you can think of. Who's the least likable type of person you can think of. Serial killer? Okay, that's our main character.

Is he a good man doing bad things, or a bad man doing good things? hehe

LOL teach! I am so bummed Robert, Eames and my entire LOCI world is not real!!! Bugger.

Ok, back to my analysis (of Robert, not me- hehehe [although I probably could use some now that teach has burst my bubble ]):

Looking at his extremely dysfunctional childhood, he's learned detachment - - and to stay detached as a defense mechanism - - despite his longings for intimacy, love and physical contact. One one hand, he's disciplined and proud of it, on the other, he is angry. Mom never gave him validation or the bonding that he wanted and needed, not only due to her schizophrenia, but due to the fact that she favored Frank over him (for whatever reasons); Dad was absent emotionally and eventually physically. So here's a young, brilliant boy on his own trying to survive. Robert is independent, self-reliant, strong-willed, determined to overcome his family situation and mad that he has no one to help him. But he's a survivor!

He is brainy and inquisitive- his biology professor was probally amused by his desire to get to "the guts" of things (look, smell, taste)....A voracious reader, researcher- - academia is his friend - - it's knowledge without emotion....a safe place for him.

As he got older, the rigid discipline of the military appealed to him. It was a quick way out that didn't cost a dime and could provide a future.

Being a cop was the way to go - - taking the tests and making his way to detective. He could go undercover 27 times because he is disciplined and detached- besides, what could be worse than home? Truth, justice and order are his comfort.

Skip to Robert of today- the anger is still there, now there are regrets as well. Regrets that he was too respectful to speak his mind in his youth; too easily manipulated by mom; too easily hurt by her - - that he allowed her to get to him; too eager for her love; too mad at himself for not being able to fix his family because he believes he could have prevented it's dysfunction; and I haven't even touched upon his anger over the Mark Brady situation- - how upset would you be if your mom had an affair with a serial killer and the prospect that this monster could be your biology??? Robert is a complex timebomb...(VDO plays him beautifully).

I just worry that all this anger is turning to depression....and I am concerned about this alleged "nose dive" that's approaching. Now, if I could only rescue him!

He needs a woman of equal intelligence who undersands and has also survived damage.

Here I am !!!! Teach, you sure he's fictional?

As some might say that there are two ways to deal with brilliance - use it and deal, or use it and assume "Captain Apathy" identity.

You might ask what "Captain Apathy" is; he/she is an intelligent person that decides that they cannot be hurt if they just don't care what others think. It is many GAT kids coping defense. Followed by the battle cry - "YOU CAN'T HURT ME 'CAUSE I DON'T CARE!!!!!" Many of us just decided that we didn't care and turned our hair funny colors, jumped off the highest bridge on the "baby genius" express, dropped out of the "advanced classes" to take first year Chinese or such, and then proved that you can do all that and not break with reality and have that "she was such a nice quiet girl" interview moment.

I think that all brilliant people that have a crisis of disposition (what do I do now moment) have a tendancy to either become manic and search for another outlet (Sheldon on "Big Bang" when the teenaged genius finds a flaw in the calculations that Sheldon had been working on for years) or they wallow in the fact that they no longer have a purpose (fourteen year olds that have a midlife crisis when they realize that they have "done nothing with their life").

All totalled, Goren will find his nitch, but the problem will be if he becomes that all-consumed cop that eventually cannot deal with real life.

Very nicely and correctly said!!
Bobby is my exact kind of man I want to have!!
I can understand him,on a level no one does;and protect him from anyone which trys to hurt him in any way!!I will be his rock,and love him for what he is;and never ever try to change him..ever!!I get all his ideas and thougths,becauze I big part of me,I see myself in him!!
You are not the only one,which is smart,and get his pain!!