First, I love Sheldon! Second, I contend there is a third option for dealing with GAT kids, one that my s-i-l and b-i-l utilized which enabled their son to have a "normal" experience, and that was to treat him as a normal, regular kid. His parents never told him his IQ (as a child). My nephew was in Odyssey of the Mind and placed first in his State and 5th overall in the world. He studied at Oxford on full scholarship and is now an associate English professor at UMo Columbia, since age 25 (he'll be 28 in 2 weeks). He was never pushed by his parents, he was accepted for who he always was/is- reading novels at age 3, communicating on an adult level since about that age, but he was never pushed or pressured or idolized. His parents never considered him their meal ticket (so to speak). And he came from a broken home too. Parenting, as you know, has much to do with their childrens' outcome....

Hey detectiveB- I think Robert is a one woman man, but thanks for trying!

i thought you were a psychologist or someone related to this domain . i'm accoustomed with english teachers because they always keep long and sometimes entertaining but usually boring monologues about literary techniques , generative grammar , chomsky and critical approaches . keep up the long talk ! anyway i don't think there is any possibility that goren might be a sociopath , psychopath or a schyzophrenic because those illnesses appear much sooner in life , in youth mostly and they usually have specific symptoms . Sociopaths display a wide range of traits : lack of human understanding and empathy , lack of regret , of consciousness , many of them are violent and deceiving , they are attracted to the ''will to power'' as nietzsche called it and by one's own interest to satisfy . I suppose goren is afraid he might become a lunatic like his mother and he is always checking himself or even challenging himself like he did in ''untethered ''to prove his own mental sanity which he does . he is very conscious of himself and very aware of his own actions . if he had been instable he wouldn't have been kept as a police officer in P.D. they have psychological tests there to check every future employee about those kind of illnesses haven't they?

Since I teach gifted and talented students, and come from a family that can only be described as a Planter's Party Mix (or as Murdock used to say, they "are not nuts, (they) have been promoted to condiments"), I spend a lot of my free time reading psychology, along with adolescent literature, philosophy, and unabridged histories; not to mention anything else that is published and bound or stapled - including my Smithsonian subscription (this is not a joke, been reading it since high school). No literary techniques in grammar school, just lots and lots of questions - students learn by talking through a topic not being talked at about a topic (sorry, pedagogy is another topic to not start me on). And definitely no Chomsky (not my favorite anyway), Jane Austin, or Dostoyevsky, just story arc, theme, character development, and defining text and context.

That's true , you're more of a modern pedagogue . We, in Romania, are still following the old traditional type of study , a lot of theory which may become nauseating at a certain moment , and not very much interaction with the teachers. At the university things improved a little but i rather study as you said , while talking uncoventionally with the teacher. i have a Smithsonian too at my place , it's called ''the best of Smithsonian'' , it's an anthology about the first decade of Smithsonian magazine .

My husband does not agree with the "touchy feely" side of education, as he calls it. When he trained to be a teacher (an aspiration that disappeared when he saw the pay cheques and realized he should stick with construction, that and starting a family), he trained to lecture and drill. He is a coach now and that is a fine approach, but I find letting students discover on their own forms knowledge, not information, and from knowledge develops independent thought. (I warned you not to start on education philosophy and practice, I could go on for days.)

There are very few places where I find "drill" to be the best learning technique, and that is for memorizing "stuff": math facts, states and capitols, spelling, grammar, music, basic History facts -- Columbus sailed in 1492, his ships were....etc, etc, etc. I think discovering and discussion is a great way to learn as well. When utilized properly together, teachers can effectively reach all students on all levels and of all learning styles.

Back on topic NO, Bobby is not a sociopath!

There are many learning styles which need to be considered. Hey teach, sounds like you were a GAT student yourself.

Once a GAT always a GAT. I think that and the family history of mental "quirks" (OK, lets be honest - if more than 10 people in three generations are nuts it is a little more that quirky.) makes me drawn to the Goren character. So all of the discussion about being some sort of sociopathic personality strikes a chord with me. Insanity is a matter of degrees, kind of like being cold outside. Some people are in the average range, and some set record highs and lows.

This is a very interesting and informative thread.

GAT student? Can you explain what it means....is it something along the lines of "gifted" students? Haven't heard the term before.

Thanks! Goddess

Gifted and talented students. Some states or communities call it GAT some TAG. Students that are "gifted" could be said to be cognitively superior, having an SAS two standard deviations above the mean. In otherwords, these are students with IQs of over 130. These students are often not served by the instruction available in the regular education classroom because the IQ score is an indication of the percent above the average knowledge or cognitive ability that is deemed age appropriate.

Students with talents are determined through standardized tests of various abilities; subject specific knowledge, creativity, musicality, visual and spacial abilities, and intellectual innovation (although this can be thought of as creativity applied because it is the ability to solve problems using non-traditional methods). These students need nurturing and understanding due to their emphasis or learning styles/inteligences (for those fans of Gardner). Quite often this is the reason for magnet schooling or specialized instruction.

Combined, these are GAT kids. Students in these programs are given the opportunity to reach the potential that is often stifled in a traditional learning environment. These programs are often pullout or self-contained units that allow the students to learn how they learn, how to use the abilities that they have, and to develop an interest in the acquisition of knowledge.

(Steps off soapbox, straightens clothes, readjusts the clip holding the hair, and distributes pins to the crowd stating "Smart is cool.")

Thanks, teach!
And you are right..."Smart IS Cool!" Where I live, and back in the day when I was in school, GAT students were know as "Enrichment" students.

Ya... smart is reasonably cool. Then again, some of the biggest ----heads I've ever dated were also the "smartest" ones. (Never date a man who quotes Nietzche to you... I'm not kidding)

Smart is nice... but good is better.


Just sayin.

::snickers at the condiment joke::

I love Smithsonian magazine...as well as anything book-wise that i can get my hands onto.

It sounds like we have a few things in common. My family history and my own life are what drew me to the Goren character as well.

I agree that talking through topics seems a more effective way of learning. I can remember things, things I was taught in high school, that i know now are b.s. If I had been "talked through" some of my classes, i think i would have been more interested and it would have made more sense to me, therefore making it easier for me to understand. I HATE being talked at...or worse, given the pages of the text book and told "there ya go, figure it out".

You seem to be a well-rounded, well-read individual...I am throughly enjoying your posts!




Agreed, flashymom...and ITA Bobby is NOT a sociopath.



Sanity...is over-rated. Honestly, who is to judge what is "normal". Everyone has their own ideals, their own styles of working through life. As Goren once said, the fact that he can ask IF he is insane, proves he is NOT insane. Do not we all, at one time or another, question our own sanity?????


WORD!

Smart IS cool. But what you do with it is what counts.

Reminds me of "A Fish Called Wanda."

Wanda - You are such an ape
Otto - Apes don't read Nietzche.
Wanda - Yes they do Otto, they just don't understand it.

LOLOLOL That was a great movie on so many levels! OK... maybe not that many levels but for many many scenes like this one.

Yes, but you have to be careful with that type of logic. proving that you are sane by questioning your sanity can lead to other tautologies. "Only sick people take meds, if I take my meds then I am sick, if I don't take my meds, I am not sick." comes to mind. Waking up everyday and questioning your own sanity can turn into paranoia, and therefore insanity. Many functional "crazy" people question their sanity everyday, but that does not make them sane. Sanity means not only being able to question your sanity, but also recognizing traits that need to be held in check to maintain a hold on sanity.

teach, thank you so much for clearing that up. I have always questioned wether or not asking yourself the question really proves you are sane. I know this person who on occasion talks to herself out loud and in her mind, sometimes rambles extremely random things without caring what anyone thinks, walking like she has vertigo while waving her right arm like a baton and twitches her head to the right when a subject she doesn't like is brought up. She is fully aware about all these things, but she knows that it is in between voluntary and involuntary. I think she finds comfort in doing some of these things when she is unconfortable. Sometimes she goes into this stage where she sits down and shakes her hands as if though she is hurting someone, then sometimes moves her head back and forth while talking to an imaginary person in her mind. She told me it relieves a lot of her anger toward things, and when she goes into this stage, she knows she is doing them on purpose but does not feel she wants to stop or that she is possessed. She asks herself if she is crazy, but can't answer it. She says se finds comfort in talking to imaginary people she knows do not exist. I don't think she has any kind of disorder, but I don't know how to explain why she is doing these things or if I can help her. What do you think...? (If this seems too off-topic you can answer in pm.)

On Topic - what do you think explains all of Bobby's psychological problems?

Unless your friend is a danger to herself or others, there is little that she can be forced to do. Some people develop coping mechanisms that are not socially acceptable. If you can get away with eccentric behavior and no one challenges you, you might continue to pursue that behavior and augment it as time goes by. (Remembering that this is not a professional opinion) If your friend can function and realizes her behavior then the only things you can do are accept it, remind her when she is becoming to vocal, and possibly suggest that there are ways to learn new coping techniques rather than what she currently pursues (several mental health clinics and social charities host group sessions with little or no price).

Back to Bobby - I think that he is too bright for his own good. He is not autistic, he does not exhibit any true psycopathy except for a depression that is fully explanable, he is not exactly well-adjusted because of his family life, he is worried that he will become insane (unlikely that he will develop schizophrania because the onset is usually in the twenties and (rarely) thirties, but associated disorders can haunt family members for their entire lives), he notices things that no one else does and retains it all, and he just plain knows too much. The final statement there is the crux of the situation. When you spend all of your time acquiring knowledge, that knowledge becomes dangerous. Learning about an illness that is a possible diagnosis often makes one feel every little ache or symptom, real or imagined. This creates a loop in the logic, could I be....>then I would.....>but I do do.....>so I could be.... Lovely, isn't it.

OMG, I LOVE that movie! I'm a huge Kevin Kline and John Cleese fan..thanks for that laugh.

WORD!!!
You actually had Nietzche quoted to you by a date???



exactly.

teach, I'm really enjoying your posts....you've given me a lot to think about.
When I was in nursing school, the instructors would talk about what they called "nursing student syndrome". I remember fellow student who would be convinced he or she had a brain tumor after experiencing a headache, for example. And I remember after my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer performing exams on myself every night until after her sugery, convinced that I would soon be diagnosed as well (Mom's the 4th generation in her maternal line to have breast cancer). I couldn't have worded it any better than what you did above.

It makes me laugh a little - I met my husband in an inductive logic philosophy class. He is still looking for a jeweler to insribe "p (if and only if - it is an upsidedown U) q". So I guess I would not have had a problem being quoted Nitzche, instead he quoted Augustine and Socratese. I wonder if there is a way to tell acceptable philosophical quotation in dating ettiquette. Kind of a point system - Nitzche would be a negative 10 point value (only if seriously uttered), Umberto Eco would be a 10 because of the difficulty level, just how would you weave symboligy into a casual conversation. Heidigger, Cante, and any other mentioned in a Monty Python ditty would be given variable point values - if quoted in the context of the philosopher song then they get 5 points but if they are uttered in an actual quote then you can subtract value.

Just remember - It's K,K,K,Ken, c,c,c,coming to kill me.

Thank God my husband and I met at church in an adult Sunday School class.....and, he can't stand Nitzche! otoh, he LOVES all things Monty Python......

Yes. Twice. Two different men. I can pick 'em.



Let me just be clear, it's not about Nietsche. It's about the men who quote Nietsche. There is a certain kind of man who chooses to quote Nietsche on a date outside of a specific conversation about nineteenth century german philosophy. These men... the quoters... bad bad news my sisters. Run. Leave skid marks on the floor.

Just sayin.

(and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten an A in philosophy even without the grades for teaching the professor Monty Python's drunk philosopher song..... IIIIIIIIIIImmanual Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.....)

I've never had the "pleasure" of meeting a guy like this, but I knew guys in high school who probably would've quoted him if they understood him.

Fortunately for me I have an almost Pavlovian response to hearing Nietsche: collapsing face first onto a table and falling asleep. It was unfortunately acquired after a reaaaalllyy long presentation about Nietsche's effect on theatre, and not even the professor sitting behind me could keep me awake.

I think I'm safe.

I know that it is all about the guys who read Nietsche, that is why the point system is ideal. You would take the philosophers quoted and assign them point values. If, at the end of the date, the point value is positive then there is hope, if it is Nietsche-esk (in the negatives) then find a new guy.

I thank God that my husband's first reaction to anything said by Nietsche was "that nihalistic b******."

**once again teach looks at the calendar and counts days to school starting, thinking she really does have too much time on her hand if she thinks of this stuff**

You guys are cracking me up! I've been sitting here all alone at my mother's, laughing hysterically. Should I ever decide to date, I will definitely ask for the point system. And you have given me a great idea for the fanfic I'm working on. Bobby is just going to have to quote Nietsche--it will fit beautifully into what I'm doing. Unfortunately, I have never read him myself, so I'm just going to have to do some research.

Thanks for the laugh and thanks for the idea everyone!

If you do sit down to read some Nietsche, don't eat or drink anything - you would just end up snarfing, inhaling food with tragic yet comical consiquences. You will be agast, and choke, or start to laugh and have milk come out of your nose; "what does not kill you makes you stronger" is about the only good thing to come out of Nietsche. I do not know how well Nietsche would suit Bobby, but I know you will make it work.

No way! That was him?! Now who would expect to hear Claree quote Nietsche in "Steel Magnolias". I'm impressed.

Hmm...I just googled him. I don't think that's going to do it for me. I guess I need to make a trip to the library.

Oh, wait, where am I? Why, off topic again, that's where! Sorry.

No, Bobby is NOT a sociopath. Is that better?

Shooter here -- Personally I've always enjoyed men with a little sociopathy in their personalities; puts a nice edge to them...

I think it's the little dark place in Bobby that is attracted to and by Nicole Wallace. Most sociopaths are highly intelligent people. Not saying there's a causative relationship to that necessarily - but hyperintelligence can also be accompanied by or result in feelings of isolation from other people. Not that the hyperintelligent person feels superior to others, just aware of the radical difference in perception and interpretation of the outside world, and a highly developed and intricate interior life.

I do not deny that Goren is dark, but I don't believe that indicates sociapathy. Many are morose because of circumstances and a hypersensitiviy. I love the term "Russian Soul" - an individual that sees the worst possibilities and believes that everything will fall apart but if the world is going to fall apart you cannot help but function and take what joy you can find as a blessing. Kind of a "It could be worse, it could be raining (lightening flashes and downpour starts)" and go on with a little laugh thinking that nothing can be done so proceed anyway enjoying the sound of the rain.

Could not help the reference to Mr. Brooks - just love Young Frankenstein.

I have to disagree with both of you on the question of when GAT and or "Special Progress" programs, as they were known at the time, were widely available, at least in New York City, which is where Bobby grew up.

These programs were offered in NYC public schools from the early early 60's on. In the late 60's I spent my entire public school education in them from 1st grade through 9th. So Bobby certainly could and would have been tested by 1st grade and put in such a program.

At that time we still had junior high schools for grades 7 through 9, I guess that's what middle school is today. (I don't really know; I don't have kids.) Then in high school you went back into general population, so to speak. You selected your own individual classes, instead of traveling through the grades as a single, accelerated learning class.

Naturally, after a good 9 or 10 years of having been more or less sequestered in your academic and social life from the majority of kids your own age, and having been labeled an "egghead", "brainiac", "nerd", "four-eyes" (for some reason most of us wore glasses), and a host of other more or less imaginative Malcolm-in-the-Middle appellations, you have either developed a strong sense of your self and a more or less functional personality, or you spend the rest of your life struggling to do so.

Bobby -- however much angst he suffers about his messed up childhood, and ManDep mother, and now his questionable bloodline -- has a very strong sense of what he is at his core. Those qualities that compose his character are all his -- his fierce sense of right and wrong, his understanding and acceptance of the fact that evil is real and exists in the world, his compassion, and his insight. These are the things that make Bobby who he is -- more surely than whatever genetics may have passed on to him.

I also think that one of the characteristics that many intellectually-gifted people share is a certain competitiveness. It's not an external thing -- although many talented people also like to compete against others -- it's an internal competitiveness, a drive for personal best. Bobby has it; it's himself he strives against, or very occasionally, he encounters a criminal opponent on his own intellectual level. He needs challenge, and again, like many gifted people, when he doesn't get enough that formidable intellect can turn on itself -- losing its sense of proportion and perspective.

Well, that's enough nattering on.. This is a good thread. Like a roundtable discussion at the Institute of Psychodrama. lol

Nice!



Great post....you make good points here!!

I am glad to hear this, some school districts are still just exploring the idea of gifted education and only at the elementary grade levels (Grades 3-6). (Partially because of funding, and partially because of the feeling that gifted kids can do it on their own.)



While this would be the hope, it is not always true, a student misses the test date, has a bad test day or is not a good test taker, or does not take the test seriously. Also, the margin of error on intelligence tests at that level (kindergarten and first grade) is large. This also assumes that Goren attended public school, Catholic schools are not that open, even now, to gifted programs because of the limited population. (He was mentioned that they had the same doorhandles as the door at the salvage shop, but is also a lapsed alter boy (not exclusive to students at the parish school but more likely because of the ability to serve daily masses and funerals)- mixed signals .)



Well said.



Welcome to our faculty.

Welcome Shooter! Very interesting points. And I especially agree with your assessment of his character. I have been saying (and saying and saying) since Endgame that his angst about Mark Ford Brady has nothing to do with fear about what he may have inherited from him. (Is there a serial rapist/serial killer gene?) His pain comes from knowing that while he had blamed his father all those years for leaving his mother and cheating on his mother, suddenly he has to face the fact that she cheated too. Then there is the knowledge that she was most likely raped and beaten by MFB. I think that's why he hasn't (and probably won't) pursue finding out if MFB was his father. It doesn't matter. He is who he is; raised by very flawed parents that he loved regardless of their neglect, a loyal caretaker who suddenly has no one to take care of. He has been struggling since his mother's death, but he will find his footing again.

ITA...you put my thoughts into words! Well said!

great points! I do wonder too, about the above, but would also include "loss of identity" for our Bobby. All his life he's known himself as the son of a gambling addict and deadbeat father and a schizophrenic mother, probably concerned that he could turn out the same way, and due to the deathbed confessions of 2 people everything was thrown off-kilter. Obviously Frances meant to take it with her to the grave, and if it hadn't been for MFB's last-minute reach-out it may very well have occured that way. Makes you wonder why MFB didn't attempt to make contact with Bobby when he initially became an adult. Add in the fact that Bobby claims not to remember him at all---interesting, since my younger son is 4 years old and has a pretty good memory for people and things.
I also wonder that if Frances Goren's main problem would have been rape trauma syndrome, and that the schizophrenic symptoms were her way of coping with what had happened to her, caused by a man who apparently claimed to love her. And ciaddict brought up a very good point, that Frances had been seen by Bobby as a "wronged woman", with having a husband who ran out on her and their sons, and to have that turned upside down just before she died.
Obviously I have little background in psychiatry/psychology, and I appreciate those who do have the background sharing their viewpoints. Am hoping that the paternity story arc is finally settled at the end of the season.
Amazing what ficitional characters can bring out.....!

I agree with you on the Frances theory, I think she was raped by him. I did not for a second believe the "car accident" story.


From personal experience, i can say that while I have a very good memory and can remember things from a young childhood time...there are some thing, well times I guess, that are blanks. Like someone will say "you remember when"...and I have no memory of that at all, but I can tell you other things from the same time frame and be totally accurate. I think maybe your mind can blank out some things...and in Goren's case, what is there to want to remember about your mother possibly being raped and the man you think may have done it?

Ya, that and he was like... 4 at the time wasn't he?

Yes, I believe it said he was.
But we moved when I was 4 and I can remember sitting in the vehicle, mom stepped up on the side, leaned in, kissed me, then shut the door and then went and got into a blue car. Dad was driving the truck and I remember it being high in the air and very loud.
They told me we only moved in a moving truck when I was 4. And their car at the time was a blue dodge dart.
But...there are things, from when I was older...things I was told, that I do not have any memory of. I know these things happened, I just cannot remember them. I do remember events around this, but not these specific events. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Just saying maybe Goren character forgot some things or his mind blanked them out to protect him?

Four is a wonderful age. Memory is perception, and four year olds have a ego-centric perception. Maybe the time at four was just not that different for Goren so that he did not note what was so obvious to his brother. The unremerkable is often just filed away and not noticed, but that does say something about Bobby's childhood.

that's true, teach!---and it has been awhile since I've seen Endgame, but I remember Frank mentioning something to the effect that Frances had been really banged-up, bruised, what have you, and that the reason had been a car accident with "Uncle Mark". And that she went to stay with Grandma (probably her mother) that weekend while a 7 year old was left alone to take care of a 4 year old?!?!?!
Like you said, the unremarkable is often filed away and not noticed....and Bobby claims no memory of a man who brought him gifts--sounded like (from Frank's perspective) that MFB was around--not frequently, but enough for a 7 year old to call him "uncle".
Perhaps it all has to do with age, as you said--but, obviously childhood ended pretty quick in the Goren household.

The only thing I remember from around the time I was 4 was when my brother was born. I remember getting to sit on the bed surrounded by pillows and hold him and feeling like such a "big girl". But that is an Event. I don't remember everyday stuff. I remember toys I had at that age but I don't specifically remember receiving them. So if Uncle Mark only came around a few times I can understand Goren not remembering him.

I think Francis just left them alone for the "weekend with Uncle Mark". So either it was only supposed to be for a couple of days (still really bad) or she didn't have a choice about going off with Brady and Frank just assumed she left him in charge at 7.