He also smiled several times!!!!!
I love it when Bobby smiles

Let's see, what would I prefer to do every month....lead children out of a room and call some guys on the phone, or have a gun pointed at me and other hostages by a psycho and have the responsibility of saving myself, them, and the psycho.

Thinking, thinking, it's a tough one. Let's see, now, which would require more skill, smarts, and understanding of human nature, and which one would a 10 year old be able to perform?

Bobby's life was being held in the hands of a crazy woman. Just how much more do you think things could "escalate" for him? Geez....

You know I said I liked this episode, but unlike the others, I couldn't make myself watch it again. Now that is strange for me for a Goren epi.

Why?

Oh she remembered!!! Who could forget! How can she even look at his feet!

As for foot size being related to .....

If in the case of Bobby Goren, I sure hope so!

I've watched it three times already

I liked the ep well enough, but it kind of takes me out of the timeline. They really should have run it before they aired Untethered, back before the writer's strike.

The interaction between Grandma and Goren/Eames felt stilted. Wouldn't Eames have some snap for Grandma? I also think it was too soon for another Goren in jeopardy episode. Since Eames has a higher profile now, why not have her talk the mom down? I'm glad there was no personal angst between G/E this episode. Like in real life, two friends who have fought find an semi-compatible truce and go about their business until another incident flares it up again.

The personal angst between G/E hadn't happened yet. The episode was filmed before the writer's strike and before Untethered aired.



Probably because she has no where near the understanding of human nature or the negotiating skills nor the command of the language nor the ability to relate to the mentally snapped as Goren.

I enjoyed this episode. While I enjoy the character-driven plot lines, it was refreshing to see them working together, to see some of the humor, and OMG, the SMILE! There is that obsessive part of me that was concerned that it was shown out of sequence of how it was filmed. I wanted to see their relationship getting "back to normal" instead of bang...there they are. What will be even weider is if they go backwards in the relationship in the next eipsode. Still liked it though.

FORGOT LOCI?!!!!!!!!!! ::checks Valley's pulse, feels her forehead:: Are you OK, Valley? Do we need to schedule an appointment with the doctor? Psychiatrist? This seems really serious.

As for the episode--well read through here and you will get a lot of different opinions. I thought it was good--not one of the best, but good. The end was like Siren Call, but I can never get enough of Bobby talking his way out of tight spots. It was filmed before the writer's strike, so the continuity suffered (they are wearing coats and scarves), and there is no angst between Bobby and Alex--which I was so happy for. It was a nice break from all the angst. They were working as a team. At the end when they were confronted with danger they both knew exactly what to do without having to discuss it. I liked it. In fact, I liked it more the second time I watched it.

I know BG smiled somewhere...somebody, please, refresh my memory?



ROFLMAO!!! Oh yeah, the perfect team, Bobby's got a gun on him and Alex takes the kids out.

One question. Why, if this is an elite, high priced, pull out all the stops to get the kid into the program, were those kids sleeping on the floor? Good Lord, even the public schools around my neck of the woods provide small cots for the kids to sleep on. Gandma Reynolds would allow Henry to sleep on the floor.

I'm sorry, but I just can't take the Eames-bashing anymore. I'm going back up to the fanfic section.

The term "bashing" does not refer to a fan who states her opinion about a character she does not like, along with several reasons and examples as to why.
ciaddict, while you're up there in the fanfic section, can you tell me if there are any good fics that aren't Eames-heavy? Thanks ever so much.



Good point. Maybe the floors in that high-falootin' school are made of gold?

hmm, ciaddict writes great fanfiction...perhaps you should check it out.

Give Eames some credit! How many of you have/had toddlers? How easy is it to wake multiple toddlers up and sneak them quietly out of the reaches of a violent psycho? Eames has never been noted as handling hostage situations; Bobby has and has done so several times while at MCS partnered with Eames. Eames safely got the kids out of harms way and immediately got back up. When lives are at stake do you want to gamble that a female hostage negotiator with no experience in hostage negotiation is the one to go with? Or would you more likely go with someone with more experience with hostage negotiations? Another thought, Eames WAS A HOSTAGE not that long ago and had some residual PTSD from it as was evident a couple of times in various episodes. I think they both did exactly what they should have done, which is why they didn’t need to discuss a game plan. They both rocked

I give Eames' the credit she deserves. She sure did get those kids out real good! But who put his life in danger and saved them all? Who is the master profiler, interrogator, and crime solver while someone else "gets the kids out"??? Bobby was in the Army in CID, is a college grad, has remarkable insight into human nature and is able to empathize with the humps perfectly, at least on the surface, while saving lives. The teachers could have gotten the kids out and called for backup, if they weren't tied to chairs. Didn't need a second cop for that. And if you want to talk about traumatic experiences in their pasts, don't you think Goren has had more than his share too?

Word.



A cop calls for backup. A teacher calls the police. Without Eames, the cops would have gone in there blind, probably make the situation worse. I will grant Eames played a secondary part, but it was still an important part.

What did you want, Gatepromise? Eames trying to one-up Bobby in front of Marla? Dueling hostages?

I'm sick of it too, ciaddict. Its gone a little too far at this point.

I'm pointing out that she is in no way his equal and they are not equal partners or an equal team. He risks his life while she...well, you know. And as a teacher myself, believe me, we are trained vigorously in what to do in crisis situations, what information to give the 911 operator, etc. We're all certified in First Aid and CPR and have hostage/gunman training. I would imagine an elite school like that would practically deputize their teachers.

Where do you teach? Because I have been teaching for 12 years and the only time I was required to be CPR/first aid certified was when I lifeguarded in the summer. I have never received gunman or hostage training and don't believe I ever will.
An elite school like that would not deputize their teachers because they would never imagine having the need to.

I teach at a blue-ribbon Lutheran school in southern California. It's a private school--and it has become the norm for private schools in urban areas to train their teachers and staff--even the cooks and janitors, to a lesser degree- in the manner I've described. The most elite, get the most extensive training, especially since 9/11. You never know. It's a crazy world. And I was being sarcastic about deputizing the teachers at the fictional "Carnegie Day Acadamy" as portrayed on Law & Order, but the point is, that what Eames' did--getting the kids out and calling for back up--was in no way even a little bit impressive and in no way equal to Goren risking his life with Crazy-Broad and her gun.

Hey. Here are some things Angie and I thought about, and won't be in order of the show because it's been almost 24 hours.

At least this eppy came closer to being a detective show than the crap they showed last year. I was glad nothing was mentioned about Goren having been on leave, etc.

Liked the part where Eames told Goren she would set him up with the online married guy and would make him look good. Can't remember if she smiled, but it would have been really 'cute' of her to give him a sly smile.

The end.....Goren didn't have to slam Marla against the wall. I know she murdered 3 people, but it's not like she's some hardened criminal. It was uncalled for.

Like the looks Goren and Eames give each other when Ross tells them to do this or that. Like they really can't stand him. Neither do we.

It didn't take long into the eppy to know that the daycare was the connection between the murders. If we can figure it out that fast, why can't the detectives?

I was surprised that Marla was the killer. I thought it was her mother-in-law. Was that Jessica Walters? She's a good actress. Always plays a b*tch real well.

Andy

Does anyone rememeber a time when she did risk her life?

Even if she hasn't, I still believe she's Goren's equal in every way but intellect.

Several people have mentioned that this reminded them of Siren Call, but I think they weren't all that alike at all. Yes, they both involve Goren having a gun on him and talking his way out, but that's about it. Cop who wanted to commit suicide while still on the job so his sick wife could get the benefits vs. mother who's so lost in her fantasy world she thinks she can get her son into that school with a gun. Goren distracted the cop to get the jump on him and wrestle the gun away vs talking the mother into giving the gun to him. No hostages (other than Goren) vs two tied up hostages not including the kids. Determined vs. deranged.

If anything it reminded me more of "Phantom" where he talks the father down from killing his kids in the motel room because Scary Gerry/Ben Linus seemed closer to losing it than Ray the small town cop. Either way I don't think it was derivative.

QUOTE (ciaddict @ Jul 7 2008, 06:25 PM)

It was filmed before the writer's strike, so the continuity suffered (they are wearing coats and scarves), and there is no angst between Bobby and Alex--which I was so happy for. It was a nice break from all the angst. They were working as a team. At the end when they were confronted with danger they both knew exactly what to do without having to discuss it. I liked it. In fact, I liked it more the second time I watched it.

I really liked the teamwork as well. When Goren and Eames work so well together it's almost like mental telepathy.

I'm thinking maybe some people wanted Eames to take the lead instead because they secretly want her to get shot... lol

Intellect. Experience. Profiling. Interrogating. Human Psychology. Empathisizing w/perps. And the ability to solve cases.

Other than that, sure, they're perfectly matched.



Ohhhh....I'm not saying a word....LOL.



Why? What is it you don't like about Ross? I'm genuinely interested.



He should have broken her neck. I think that's the first time we've ever seen him use the slightest bit of force against a woman, but as he said, the people she killed all had children too. She didn't deserve delicacy.

Well to be fair, we did have the advatage of all the previews telling us it had something to do with the preschool.

Speaking of which, I must have missed it... did we find out if Skip upped his rating of Paloma's company so she would use her influence to get his kid off the wait list and on the admitted list? I kind of assumed that, but I don't remember if they resolved it.

My, my, we are testy on this thread today aren’t we? I don’t dispute nor discredit Bobby’s skills (notice me screen name?). I also don’t dispute that Bobby has also gone through dramatic situations. What caused me to write my post in the first place is the overall feeling that Eames some how copped-out, so to speak. She didn’t’ faint out of fear, stand paralyzed in fear, or start screaming in terror. They each had a job to do and they did it. If she had taken over the negations (which we would all debate as well) and Bobby took the kids out we would be mocking is actions?

As far as being equals, how can they be equals? He works the case as more of a profiler specializing in the mental state(s) of the both perp and victims. She works the case as a detective (first grade, I believe it was said). She is street wise and knows what protocol and procedures to follow. Their approaches compliment each other.

Anyways, I’m done with the Goren vs. Eames thing. The story wasn’t written that way, I didn’t get that vibe at all when watching it, and didn’t even think of it until this thread turned into the “Eames is a sissy” thing. I said my piece. Yes Goren is good, and yes, Eames good, the end. Debate amongst yourselves as you like.

Oh I don't think there is an "overall feeling". I think there is a very vocal minority. I couldn't agree with you more and I think most feel that way. Goren himself said it best in "Semi-Detached": "She's a good partner. We have complimentary skills."

I also think most of us are just waiting for the subject to drop so we can get back to talking about the rest of the episode.

Do they actually train you to do negotiations with hostage takers/gunmen? Don't take this the wrong way, but I would think that would be strictly under the purview of law enforcement, since they could actually make promises about what the hostage taker/gunman would get for releasing their hostages........

I would imagine that part of the reason Goren and Eames are an effective team is because they have agreed beforehand what their respective roles will be in various situations. And Eames' life has been in danger (or perceived danger) several times -- she was the shooter in the episode where Maggie Coulter was kidnapped and raped; she was the shooter in Pas de Deux; she was the shooter in the episode involving the Asian lady married to the older rich gentleman whose son pulled a gun charging up the courthouse steps. And, of course, in Blind Spot. I don't think Eames' courage has ever or should be in question. She is definitely NOT Goren's water carrier. Their skills are very complimentary, as they should be in a good partnership.

Eames said it best recently--she must have been thinking it for awhile now--"You're the genius and I just carry your water." She assists him.

Goren and Eames are both equal as police officers. One will not succeed without the other.

"We have complimentary skills." -Bobby Goren.

You go, gender-neutral avatar!



You said it best, and you allayed my fears. Eames IS brave.


I'm sorry, Gatepromise, you clearly misunderstood Eames' line. She was OVERREACTING to the situation. This accusation is neither true, nor anything that Goren himself believes. (And I don't recommend you contesting that last one.) To ensure everyone understood the line, they should have qualified. Something along the lines of "No, Eames, of course we're equal, I've never thought that. Anyone who thinks that is . . ."

WORD -- that's the essence of a great partnership. She worked Vice, he worked Narcotics -- each of them knows things the other doesn't (and Goren has acknowledged Eames' contribution many, many times) -- While I don't agree with a lot of the things she said to Goren during her "aria" in Purgatory, I can understand that she was extremely upset over the situation. Goren never has and never will belittle Eames in any way, nor should she be belittled by anyone. She has to be an effective police officer in her own right, albeit in a different way from Goren, or she would never have made Major Case.

Hey, guys, stop feeding the troll, and maybe he or she will crawl back under the bridge.

Yes, as Bobby told Nelda. "She is a great partner" "We have complimentary skills"

Can we please try to keep our disagreements civil? There are plenty of people here passionately attached to their point of view... I'm probably one of them (Just kidding... everything I say is based on flawless logic and observation and should be taken as absolute truth) but there's no need to call names or adopt a nasty tone.

I enjoyed the episode. It was not the best ever, but it was good. Solid story, cute interaction between the two detectives, Booby behaving more like himself (and looking more like himself). It was a nice break, but I for one-- and this will not make me popular, I know-- appreciate the tension of the previous two episodes and want it back. I find the friction credible: Alex does put up with a lot for Bobby, her career obviously has suffered, and it sucks to be regarded by everyone as his babysitter/sidekick. It makes perfect sense that she's mad and lashing out a bit (someone called it hysteria before, I really saw none of that). She is obviously reacting not only to the latest incident but to years of her paying the price for his behavior, and years of him not letting her in (like when his mom was sick). Not pretty to watch, but credible and believable. I just hope they take it somewhere interesting.

Totally agree. Without hesitation, they both knew their roles. That is the sign of a true great partnership. Trust is the key. Eames was the teeny tiny one that could sneak the kids out more easily that Bobby could. Bobby with his size alone and the gimp leg would have been a much bigger, moving target.

Plus if there was a fight for the gun, by size alone (THUD) he wins. He could have squashed Marla.

I hate to sound sexist, but he is the man. She might be senior detective, but in name only and she knows it. That is why she is pissed. It always comes back to him.

Eames has always accepted that before, but now she is starting to resent it. Rightfully so.

I realize how "sad" it is that I can list all of these, but here goes:

• Bobby has small and/or half smiles when he is talking to Leo's Nanny at the beginning about the piano lessons and Chinese class.
• Again, another small smile (at Eames) when she tells the guy in Skip's office to restore his browser and the guy replies, "Don't tell his wife," and again when Eames tells him that she will make sure he is the internet hookup's (Kevnine) type.
• He kinda smiles when he meets Kevin as Bigfoot.
• He has a fairly large smile at the end of the scene with Denise's husband in jail when the guy says he is not stupid about the preacher and Denise. He knew what was going on. Bobby cuts his eyes up at Eames and then smiles.
• Some amused looks at the snobby mother-in-law in the interrogation room.
• He smiles at Henry's parents in the interrogation room several times.

I just love to look at that face, esp. when it has a pleasant look or a smile! Happy to have found a place where there are others that watch the show and Bobby like me!

I liked the episode the first time, but I liked it even better the second, too, ciaddict.

Noticed that several of you are teachers. I am, too. Must be something about the way Bobby thinks and the way LOCI is written that attracts us educators! LOL

Lastly, I am a Kentucky girl. I was somewhat relived that Marla was not portrayed as a complete "country bumpkin." She had an occasional indication with her accent with a flat i sound (indicative of Eastern KY) and dropping her "ing"s and replacing with "in." (Bobby ends his "ing"s sometimes with "in" sometimes, too.) Her accent and the fact that she was a whacked out murderer of three people in front of their kids, otherwise she was portrayed fairly normally. ha ha ha

I found this episode okay. I really wonder why Bobby wouldn't write the e-mail himself... too shy maybe That was funny. In general, they seemed at ease with each other, no drama, I really really liked that. Too bad that the preview already showed that the perp was a woman! (And I find hostage scenes boring, but that's my own personal opinion.)

I wondered about the beds, too. But maybe it's healthier to sleep on the ground (Japanese Tatami mats or something) . And like someone already said: where was Eames' snark with the grandma?

The comment: she had a fiancee but he died some years ago and she never found someone else, that made me sad, it reminded me of Alex.

It felt strange to me at first, too, when Eames instantly offered to watch the kids and not putting herself in danger. But it seemed that this was the only way to get Marla from the room. It wasn't a coward thing to do (plus I hope Bobby wore a bulletproof vest, just in case). And Bobby is always nice with kids but I bet those kids haven't seen many strange men in their lifes - female kindergarten staff in the morning, female nanny in the afternoon, so they might freak a little, especially if they are woken up.
I wondered if she was supposed to sneak in from behind to shoot Marla. Shooting seems to be her job, and I am sure that it's not easy to deal with the fact that you took a human life, even if they were killers.

In the first half I kept myself asking: where is Bobby??? I know Betrayed and Please note were not filmed after each other but in both episodes VDO seemed less... there. Usually I noticed him even when he was doing something in the background.

Hey. I think it's human nature, real life or TV, to compare the "new guy" with the guy he replaced. I liked Deakins. He has some personality. Ross doesn't. From the very first eppy he was on (and Bug or Jryan can quote it word for word) he told Eames to watch Goren. That he had worked too hard to get where he is and didn't want Goren screwing it up. I'm not a big Goren fan. Everyone knows I watch the show for the petite, beautiful Miss Erbe. However, I have never liked his attitude toward Goren.

Marla may have not deserved delicacy, but she didn't deserve brutality, either.

Andy

Brutality might be overstating a little bit. He spun her around and pinned her to the wall. She was surprised, not hurt. The amount of force he used wouldn't even leave a bruise on her arm where he grabbed her unless she very thin skinned. I maintain he did that by the book as the safest way to restrain her for everyone's safety, including hers.

I'm not a troll--a troll is someone who says something just to piss off others, with no reason or explanations. I've given plenty of examples of why I feel the way I do. And as for the "vocal minority" claim, you might be surprised at how many people agree with me on Eames--I've got the PMs to prove it. Maybe they don't want to say anything publicly because of the very vocal Eames-ers who immediatly jump to her defense, even though the show has so obviously been set up as Goren as the show runner and she as the sidekick. I've been around here awhile and my beef with Eames didn't really start until the tantrum she threw in Purgatory and the whole "Wasn't that great, boy did he have that coming, you go girl!" cheering a few folks here took up. They simply are not an equal partnership--they're not written that way, they're not intended that way, they were never set up that way. Okay? It's a pity because all of the other women partners on all of the other Law & Order franchises absolutely hold their own. I didn't say Eames was a coward--I said she is almost always given the traditionally female things to do. Don't let your irritation at my points put words in my mouth that I didn't say. And how about at least aknowledging that her role up to this point really is that of "assistant" rather than equal?



Not negotiantions in the traditional sense of the word, like promising the hostage takers something they want. We are trained in what to say and not to say, in how to convey compliance and submission and when it's appropriate, that kind of thing. It's similar to the kind of training bank tellers receieve in the event of a robbery, only much more extensive because we have children to protect.

It's obvious that over the years of their partnership, Goren and Eames have pre-determined their roles in particular instances. In hostage situations, Goren (because of his physical superiority) goes in and Eames gets help. It's unfair and childish to accuse Eames of being a coward, a 10 year old who ran away. Very unfair & very innaccurate.

Besides, it was obvious that Marla wasn't that much of a threat. She didn't kill the teacher & the admissions rep. There were severaL times that Goren could have grabbed the gun from her, but he felt that he could wait her out, deal with her. He went to the window & opened the shade, to allow backup to see in. As Chrtisine mentioned, this wasn't as deadly as the "Siren Call" confrontation.




Deputize their teachers? This in New York City, not the Ozark.




WORD Christine. I thought that Eames could have been a bit more proactive in "Siren Call", but others have pointed out that she was still reeling from "Blind Spot."




I totally agree. He was quick & decisive. He knows what he's doing, and I doubt that he hurt her at all (physically).

My take is that before she made the comment "I'm irreplaceable." that Goren wasn't sure how he was going to handle her - meaning hugging her & leading her out gently vs. the abrupt pinning against the wall. He did feel empathy for her until that moment. He knows the aloneness that she feels. However, after that comment, he realized that she had no remorse about the murders. It was all about her. That's why his expression changed from compassion to steely determination and he pinned her so Eames could arrest her.

Really? Is that how you see it? You really admire all of the other female partners and not Eames? I don't think you and I have been watching the same shows. And your posts aren't a simple obvervation, they are more like a vendetta. I can see why someone would view some of your posts as troll like (to incite trouble).

Yup, yup and yup. That last bit where he talks the gun out of Marla's hands and reduces her to a snivelling heap with his empathy, his generosity and his kindness towards her was, IMHO, a superb piece of televsion.

She was sobbing her heart out and Goren moved towards her so slowly ... I actually thought he was going to pat her on the shoulder or the arm, or offer her his handkerchief or something - it had me COMPLETELY fooled into thinking he was still actually sympathising with the poor woman.

So often in LOCI, because one can see what the perp has gone through prior to the crime, I do find myself feeling sympathy for them.

So when Bobby did the body slam it was a bit of a surprise for me. Thinking about it later, I decided that Goren was probably very very pumped with adrenaline. He is just a bloke, after all - not a superhero (oh God ...did I just admit that out loud?? AAAAARRRGGHH!!! )

That is what I love about this show and in particular Vincent's performance ... there seems to be so much thought behind it all. He's never just going through the motions. I love all the many different levels.

OK I'll shut up now

Back to the episode.

Did anyone notice what Goren said to the two bound women in the classroom? When he sat next to them he whispered "I'm gonna take care of you."

Classic Goren, taking care of the situation. I've missed this particular characterization of him. Dressed professionally, rested, confident, brain working at top speed. This episode is a sheer joy to watch if you are a VDO/Goren fan, IMO.