I've watched all the episodes so far and have enjoyed this show but the character of Mary's mother is way over the top. She needs to be toned down. Surely they can portray her with the same personality traits (a bit loopy, no money, sponges off Mary, looking for a man with money, blah, blah, blah) without her being so out there. It's just not believable to me and ruins the show. Her sister's character is much more believable but they're sort of leaving her story line hanging. I'd like to see that move along a bit. Still, I like the show and will keep watching.

Hiya Medword, and welcome

It is a cool show eh? My favourite thing is that no one I've met who's a fan, likes everything about it. Because in my experience, if you're ever completely satisfied with a show, it'll be cancelled straight off *knocks on wood.* *g*

You're certainly not alone if Jinx bugs you, I know we have at least two other threads along similar lines.

As someone who has always connected with Jinx, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that makes her an unsympathetic character to so many, so bear with me a moment. Does it have anything to do with her being somewhat old-fashioned with regards to personality and stereotypes? After all, she's a bubbly, tipsy, and baby-voiced woman who seems to have spend her life being taken care of by men, which is a character we were more apt to see 20+ years ago. Whereas today, the strong, emancipated female is in vogue. If not in financial matters, than in opinion, ec. Because a lot of the jargon I'm seeing used to describe her is exactly what I would expect as criticism to an outdated social type. That is, it's use is more for propelling attitudes forward than fairly analyzing the lifestyle or people represented.

Which isn't meant in direct response to your comment, since what's irking you is clearly more of a quirk in the way the actress is approaching the material, or perhaps is founded within some of the details of the writing?

I would have to agree that Jinx's character traits are problematic: if she's that helpless and her husband/Mary and Brandi's father has been absentee, Mary in particular shouldn't be able to do what she does because she simply wouldn't have had the context and example to follow. Jinx is a throwback, a 1950s lush, and even in the 70s and 80s she would have been risque' and refreshing, but that "type"'s day really does seem to be done.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that Jinx could be Jinx - having the qualities already established in her character - without being such a stereotype. I agree it's possible, and I hope to see that soon, because despite the phenomenal quality of the actress who plays her, right now I feel her character detracts from the show rather than adding to it and there probably is potential to make her and her now-unusual views on relationships and dependence work. She could have her reasons for being the way she is, but they're not fitting with the show's entire context; as it is, she's one more person for Mary to take care of, and I think that the fans who really like Mary resent her for that. I think I could be more sympathetic with Jinx if I understood where her ideas came from, and what her reasoning is for acting as she does, and having it be something beyond simple weakness of character (in the moral sense.)

As to the character type:
I don't think that the strong female character type is "in vogue" because to say so would imply that such a persona is temporary. It is certainly new in a historical sense. That full-on convention-breaking independence in female television characters is a very, very recent phenomenon, less than 20 years old. The first female character who didn't in some form apologize for her strength by doing something phenomenally stupid or somehow being weakened in the writing was Xena (OK, possibly WonderWoman because comics are always ahead of their time), and while it's released a new genre of fiction with tough female leads, if you look at it in historical terms, it could hardly be termed a fad. Women in real life are getting stronger and finding new ways to be assertive; in this case it's art reflecting life - there are real women in the world who are very much like Mary, and I've known a few of them. There are still women in the world that are like Jinx, and I think what's problematic in my mind is that Jinx's attitudes would make more sense coming from a grandmother or great grandmother than from a mom.

I'm willing to keep an open mind about character development for Jinx so long as Mary doesn't get diluted as a result.

Er, really? Innumberable stories in Reader's Digest serve to contradict that statement. Not to mention tons of feel-good reality-based movies and Lifetime dramas. [Or anyway things that seem like they'd play on Lifetime, unless it's the Golden Girls or Mad About You I don't really like the station.] More particularly, she mentioned in one episode that her recruitment to the US Marshalls was somewhat accidental, so it seems quite possible she'd wind up there (instead of the military, which is another route I could see Mary taking. Oh gosh, tie her over with NCIS and I will die of Squee.)



Ah. Would she be more palatable if she still resided in the old homestead, and could scrape by on her own?

Double ah. What I'm reading into this comment is that if the show gave us a little more background, along the lines of the stuff I'm assuming about her character, she would be less horrible. Perhaps? For those out there who dislike her, what assumptions about her life do you have, if any?



Quite correct ;] Really, I'm a terrible feminist. Horrible. It makes me sad because I don't mean to be, but there it is.

I have to wince at the Xena argument though. Because the receipt of the show was tempered by a theme of lesbianism, intentional or not, which to me indicates reactionary, rather than progressive, stereotyping.

Another part of me -needs- to add the coda that a lengthy history of progressively emancipated female leads gave us Xena as a serialized diversion. From "I Love Lucy" to "That Girl" to "The Mary Tyler Moore Show." We saw females lag the reality of the nation, true, but it is important to view the trend of televised representation. Because within such a historical context, the simple ability to create a fictional female -without- the historical male-dependance becomes a liberal viewpoint. And I think that the 90s gave us a number of shows that were, in essence, designed specificially in -opposition- to male-dependance (like Ally McBeal.) Which is where I grabbed the 'fad' nomincalature - I sort of see a reactionary faddish trend, (but I was also born in the 80s so I know I'm a little messed up about time periods thence to hence.)



Oh god yes. There's at least one job I've had where if you worked for me, I'm fairly sure you'd be referencing me now as a "Mary exists IRL" example. Not, perhaps, proudly. Acadamically, in work I tend to end up reading, the question comes down more to the ultimate stance of the protagonist. Like "Sex in the City". No matter how awesome it might have been (and I've never actually seen a full episode) but the discussions still focuses on the fact that the 'independent' women still were targetting upon classical images of family. Not ultimately (sorry) completely progressive.

Buuuuut... See, that's where I'm coming from. Now at least. I have a granny who emigrated from the Ukraine, worked blue collar jobs and at 80 years old, still raises some of her children and grandchildren. Not still raising daddy though, who was the most independant of the brood. I think I'm also the least favourite grandchild. Though iroically also the most educated.




Really, that's where it comes down to for me as well. I'm not my granny and I don't want to be. I would never stand for the crap she put up with, but that took more stength than I have ever had to move half a world away and start a new life with nothing. But so long as we can separate where the two of us came from, me and my granny, and how we got there, it's an interesting dichotomy. And really, we're still closely related. Despite everything.

To me the Jinx character only makes sense if she has had some kind of emotional breakdown. That she is still in denial AND, mentally for right now, still lives on Planet Jinx. After all, as a previous poster noted, we have very little back-story on Mom.

I just feel that the scenes for them are too jarring. Like in "Trojan Horst," Mary's planning an ambush and Marshall's bleeding, and then we cut to Jinx and Brandy (sp?) downing drinks at a bar.

Heh. You're not afraid to debate - that's awesome, and I mean that sincerely!

As Marshall would say, I'm pretty sure that it would all be academic - I'm taking Mary as a true-to- life character, and since Reader's Digest and Lifetime are diverting, I don't always see some of the stuff they turn out as necessarily reality-based themselves, more of what they think women want to see... again, academic. But I do need to go back and look at the ep where Mary refers to becoming a marshall, and I really think more background might help make the family storyline fit better. I know in entertainment it's show, not tell, but I think the audience could benefit from some exposition.







Interesting choice of words. No, the character's living with Mary doesn't bother me. It's why and how she lives with Mary - I need a little tell, as the show hasn't quite revealed that much.




I think the assumptions I have about Jinx's life right now is that she's clearly heartbroken over Mary's father even now, and that she really truly believed Prince Charming was coming and is...still...waiting. While she's pretending bon vivant now, there has been no indication that she has any talents, interests or skills and appears to spend her free time either drinking in her daughter's backyard or picking up men in bars so they can come home with her to drink in her daughter's backyard. She's not a person I personally would have much use for, because at any generation she comes off as a bit shallow and boring, although my initial assessment is "selfish" is receding based on the last episode with her selling the box and clearly caring that she can't repay Mary, although the possibility of getting kicked out was the primary motivator.




Feminism is a mess, and while I'm classified as one, I'm more for asserting women are people rather than behavior patterns. Really. Even if it doesn't 100% look like it here. It's a complex discussion, probably for a different forum.




While the Reimi brothers aren't always, hm, progressive? when it comes to women, they were very good at responding to their audiences that were progressive. The price the audience paid was the Reimi brothers filter on how they viewed strong women characters. This would make for a very interesting discussion, academically.



I was born in the mid 70s, so I was around to be aware of the first wave of backlash. I see the division as this: yes, Mary Tyler Moore and I Love Lucy were definitely examples of women assuming power roles - but they hid that from the audience. Lucille Ball's character had a relationship with her spouse that frequently cast him in a role as a babysitter - that's not really a message of empowerment to send to audiences, but it is what producers felt the audience was prepared to recieve.

As to whether it's a liberal or conservative viewpoint... liberal ideas have a tendency to become conservative ones with enough time. I recall something in my history lessons about the earth NOT revolving around the sun getting some guy's head cut off once. And I don't think In Plain Sight is presenting anything new or any uncovered territory; at this point a female action lead isn't a groundbreaking concept. I'm just glad they're not making Mary apologize for herself.





The tough old broad is a cultural universal, and thank whoever for her because it's about something so much deeper and more important than politics and feminism. She might get cast as a witch in fairytales, but the world needs them - whether it's your Ukrainian grandmother or my Bucza, who was a traditional family Catholic, who, upon being mugged somehow wound up with her mugger's wallet by the time the police got there. Do I want to be her? Probably not - she believed in things like old-school betrothals and keeping the youngest in the generation home to care for the elders (that being me, and y'know, loved her, love my dad, but ... NO.)

But, coming back to the point of this, being Jinx - yes, more background would help. I need to know why, and what other influences her daughters had, or if this was a co-dependent relationship scenario.

I am enjoying the show a lot...esp the last episode....good acting by all.
As for her mom....that is how she is...out there...and very funny.
Like to see Cristian come back for a show.
The show for Sunday should be a fun one ..at least from the preview and
the newsletter I get.

Hi everyone! I'm a Monk and Burn Notice fan who is giving this show a try since USA has done such a great job on those shows.

I'm glad that IPS has gotten better because I really like Mary's character, and generally speaking the last two episodes were terrific. There was a lot of humor, and the Mary and Marshall characters deepened, jelled better, and just have me hooked, so I'm hoping that USA continues the show. It's too depressing if Mary can't count on anyone to be as smart as she is, but now I can see that Marshall can be there for her. It looks like her boss at least tries, but doesn't quite get her yet.

I'm posting on this thread because I agree that there's a huge problem with the mom and sister characters. My two cents is that the writers need to move them on from being such a mess and so needy quickly. The writers must seize on the realizations of the need to change that these characters had in the last two episodes immediately. Their stumbles as they try to improve might be funny.

Yes, there are characters in society who really are like these women, but this show is supposed to be mostly funny. These characters are so pitiful to me that I haven't found any humor in any of their antics. The pilot for this show was so poorly put together, and the mom and sister characters so depressing that I would not have bothered to watch another show if it hadn't been for USA's success with Monk and Burn Notice.

Burn Notice has dysfunctional family members to the lead character, but the head writer/creator didn't give those characters in-depth storylines in the first season. Somehow that show has successfully used the dysfunction to create humor. The few serious moments with the Burn Notice characters were also moments that I could relate to. I still fully appreciate how troubled the characers are on Burn Notice, but that show's handling of them isn't painful for me as with these two.

The "choppiness" is, I would agree, mainly a problem with lack of background on the characters. The writers are keeping us too much in the dark. Once again, Burn Notice did a spectacular job of tellig the audience enough about the characters that we weren't frustrated. Not so here.

USA please consult with the IPS writers on these problems if you haven't done it already. I really do like Mary and Marshall and want to see more. I'll be sad if IPS cancelled. That's why I'm speaking up. My husband saw only the last two episodes and sees the same problms.

*Hugs Medea42* It's been a while since I've had a discussion this thought provoking, thank you! I am an debating-addict, and it's rare to find anyone who can elegantly point out that there is a logical, factual argument by which I am wrong.

Yeah, I was searching for an unimpeachable real, similar story but I couldn't think of one since also, any version of history gets screwy. At any rate it's a nature v nurture argument, which won't get us anywhere, so at the very worst, Mary's story is a conceit of the show. At least until the writers get a blog and explain it to me.

It's right at the end when Mary says something like "If I ever run into the recruiter that promised me a life of excitement and adventure as a US Marshal, I'd blow his kneecaps off." I'm curious how old she was at the time and if she went to college. That sort of recruitment line sounds like the armed services, who also tend to target blue collar kids who are looking for a way out of their current life. Hopefully they'll have room to drop enough exposition by the end of season 1, such as how old she is...




I agree with all of your analysis. In fact the only reason my final assessment differs is because I tend to think of people like her as providing hours of fun conversation over drinks and ciggies. She's very congenial, quick to laugh, and not at all self-conscious. And because I've known a couple of female-escort types, and the art of being a perfect woman for an average male is super interesting to me. And it seems to be her lifelong role in life - though maybe not all she really is.

Hmm. I'm going to uselessly channel a possible partial solution here, because writing exercises interest me, and the primary difference in my view of Jinx's character is that I'm presuming she hasn't actually been in her current weird statis since the disappearance of daddy dearest. But given the format of the show keeps taking us back to the past in order to see how certain witnesses got where they are now, the writers should really widen those windows periodically to catch a glimpse of how life was for our main cast. I get the impression Jinx has only been living with Mary for a while - couple years maybe. Ie: ow'd that come about, what were the effects on Mary, and then what were the effects on Marshall and Stan?



I can't add anything to a discussion on the Reimi bros at this point, since all I know about Xena/Hercules is that they did really well as syndicated material, like, unexpectedly super-good. I just wanted to note that huh, it is an intriguing line of ponder. I now plan to do some reading on Xena, and watch it again. (I did used to like it, way back when I had afternoons free.)

I'm not sure I concur with your division of roles for women in tv. Partially because the switch from network to cable tv in the 80s essentially created a new media form out of television, and it's unfair to judge what came before with what came after - though the historical progression is still valid and important. I also wouldn't term the concessions made in terms of female empowerment to be 'hiding' anything from the audience. The academic argument I subscribe to is that (network) tv served as a location for social discourse. As such, it is a testing ground for conservative, liberal, and moderate voices. Which we can see in shows as contrasting elements. Like Lucy, constantly trying to break out of the home, but always falling back, still hopeful, to where she began. Such as "That Girl" living on her own, but constantly being taken care of by her dad and boyfriend. Then Mary, who lived on her own and even had some flings with men (one of which was "That Girl's" long time boyfriend, which is just about the best thing ever. And an example of discourses taking place over the years within the media.)

You're exactly right that liberal views tend to become conservative over time - which is exactly why we see the progression in tv shows. (At a substantial lag from trends in the society itself, and the exact reasons for this are debateable.) It's also important not to expect more out of a show than the format was meant to give. "I Love Lucy" was one of the first shows on the air. On good nights it reached over 70% of the tv sets in the country. That is amazing, and even more so when you consider that each of those sets was being watched by a family unit - not just one member.

At the time there was no history for serialized tv, and so the humourous, episodic approach was perfect. As is the fact that the usual set up has Lucy trying to escape the role of housewife (often by physically leaving the house and often by trying to break into her husbands show business career), but almost always winds up thwarted and back where she started. Usually through her own foibles, which is perfectly reasonable writing, and often quite genius.

From what happened in the "Iris..." episode , I say of is only a matter of a few epis before Mary's newly reformed sister flips on her drug dealing boyfriend, sleeps with Rafe, begs her Mary for forgiveness and both she and Rafe go into WITSEC and shipped far, far away. I can't wait!

Bats, I missed this awesome response! You caught me on my reading dep week. I'm just marking here to make sure I respond to it. Excellent points - especially since I never really watched I Love Lucy, and in terms of how TV was set up, you're absolutely right.

But tell me how re-watching Xena is. I'd love to know what you think!