(gettin' good at this ... ) from 'semi-detached'

i'm just decorating again.

this is haver's icon, brazenly stolen from her at livejournal before i learned how to make screen stills. i really love this image - it's from 'rocket man', and imho beautifully illustrates the 'proximity' thing that jr brought up (and we all love so much).


i was wondering about this the other day ... you ever notice that bobby always says 'eames' right before he speaks? even if it's just the two of them (which is sort-of adorable - who else would he be speaking to? and most of the time she's right there and is already paying attention to him), but even when there are other people around ... like barek (itwsh) or rodgers (all the time)?? he always starts with 'eames' and speaks only to her.
don't know why i was thinking about it. it's endearing, i guess. (or rude, if you're barek or rodgers)

i recently watched 'privilege' too, (wrote a stupidly long thang on my livejournal account, even), and i'm gonna go rewatch both those scenes to compare his body language, because i thought there was some other hella-shippy stuff going on in that scene.
i noticed that eames is deeply uncomfortable with that interaction as well, looks down to the left and studies the floor intently - i think she's even poking her tongue into the side of her cheek as she does when she's really upset. hmm... so, now my imagination is running amok. oh, shippy illness, shippy illness.

ciaddict, you know you are welcome here anytime. We enjoy having you here!

I don't think the NOROMOs are unromantic at all. My personal feeling, and I am just speaking for myself, is that at least in the past, NOROMOs thought shippers were only romantic and therefore illogical. What I love about my shippy peeps who are currently posting is that we use logic to argue that shippiness exists. For me, whether I "want" Bobby and Alex together or not is irrelevant. Given my druthers, I'd actually like to see Bobby with someone like, uh, maybe . . . me But analyzing what I know about literature, writers, actors, and directors, I can only conclude they are attracted to each other, and I see enough proof to believe they are already coupled up (or at least were at some point). With that as my given, my romantic side kicks in and I say "awwww", because everyone wants to see good people find their soulmate--you root for the two and look forward to seeing them work the relationship out in all it's complexity.

Fiction in general is so incredibly hard to write because you have to "show and not tell" to have a convincing story, and you have to pick words and themes carefully so the story can be convincing. Fanfiction is even harder, because you are working with pre-existing characters that you didn't create and have to use their voices to be believable. If you make your own characters, you've got a good idea in your head about how they behave, and you can modify them if necessary, but you can't do that with Bobby, Alex, Ross, etc. because they're not yours. I consider myself a fairly good expository writer, but I don't even want to attempt fanfiction because I find it too intimidating, so I admire those who do -- like our own scarlet and bogoalexea and uni.

The long and short of it is that if you find even a few fanfics that you can "feel", then you have acknowledged that Bobby and Alex could in the realm of possibility be a couple (in Imaginaryville, of course). And if you can imagine that they could even possibly be a couple, you can look for tells within the episodes to either confirm or deny that hypothesis, based on the clues the actors, writers, and directors are showing us. It's very logical and analytical.

I'm not trying to come across as a know-it-all, so I apologize if it sounds that way. I'm just trying to explain rationally why I'm on this particular ship. Your results may vary.

Watch yourself--you may eventually end up on the ship or at least the fence, and we'd love to have you here!

Hey fellow shippers!

now i just saw albatross for the first time and i loved it. 'course when i say this i mean i love the whole "are we okay" " i hope so" bit. awwwwwwwwww......... and yeah im glad that bobby agrees with me about the "she must be getting something out of it" speech. hahaha i about died laughing when i saw that. i swear i hadnt seen this episode before i wrote that. but since he said that a couple of years ago i guess i cant claim that he was copying me.. hehe . so anyway.... i havent had any randoms thoughts lately....work has been heavy so i havent had much time to watch tv. only an episode here and there. although the plan is to watch them all over again from the begining once i finish watching the ones i missed. i am looking forward to seeing the episode (i think its season 3) after eames's maternity leave. that (next to blind spot of course) so far is my fav. i love the two bobby dancing scenes. (drools uncontrolablly at the thought of bobby dancing) when he dances around her......i always reverse it and play it again about 5 times. OCD works for me!!!! and then when hes looking at the interpretive dancers and stretching out his arms. (gush) haha!!

oooohh before i forget... random question....why does my thingy under my name still say stranger? everybody has cutsie stuff under their name and i cant find where to change it. i dont wanna be a stranger....

oh and thanks bogoalexea for your kind words!!!

and yeah unicorn66 i wondered about eames' folks too. i mean where are they??? other than the thanksgiving epi (war at home) they seem to be MIA. i guess that the writers feel that bobby's family is more interesting. i dunno....

well i hope you all are having a wonderful week!

All this talk about Albatross has compelled me to watch it again, as I see a few people have! I had seen it once or twice before, but I totally don't remember the bar scene (it's been a while!) so I'm looking forward to that! Hopefully I'll have time to post thoughts on it here before I start to nod off

Today I found a blog post called The Recovery of Robert Goren from the blog "Criminal Intent Musings" which goes through the Goren/Eames episodes in the order they were intended to be watched (more or less) and tracks Goren's progression through the season. It's very insightful if you haven't read it already and offers a great basis for discussion from a shipper's point of view as far as Goren's emotional state at various points.

Welcome, jr003! Looking forward to posting with you, and have fun!

The titles underneath your username (like stranger, journeyman, member...etc) are based on the number of posts you have made. An explanation can be found on page 6 of the technical thread, but what the heck, I'll just copy it here to make it easier

just a little more decorating ... tra la la.


she looks a little ... concerned. ('untethered')

a wee bit ... nervous perhaps.

Hi everybody! Nice topics here! Congrats


Awww... How sweet!!!

...


...maybe she didn't want to let her family know yet about her ordeal. I mean, I think the writers had a good reason for only showing us Bobby.
We saw a sneak pick of her family in TWAH a couple of eps later... So I think it was thought out. Maybe they just wanted to show us just the two of them or they want to show us how she doesn't let her family know everything?

Yes, in "Privilege" and "Faithfully" Bobby did indeed have a similar behavior/reaction. But he was more uncomfortable in "Faithfully" towards Eames. And when he shook hands with Ross ( in "Faithfully"), he showed no embarrassment at all. So I'm thinking it's not just because of what happened in "Frame": I sense something shippy.

I love it when you decorate uni And I love that moment in "Semi-Detached" where Bobby had trouble dealing with that computer (lol). But I never noticed Eames' smile: sweet!!!


It's very beautiful indeed...


I always notice that but I never put it into words like this (lol). It's like he's totally excluding the other people around him really. But he does have an excuse though: she's his partner, he must work with her. But still...


Like I stated it a bit higher, I still do think there might be something shippy in the moment in "Faithfully"
As for Eames being uncomfortable, well, I believe it's because she knows Bobby is not liking that line of questions and also because of the camouflaged heat between him and Ross...


Me either, I don't think that NOROMOs are unromantic. However, I know that a lot of them (not all) just want Bobby for themselves. They don't want to see him with anyone (lol). Some others 'the partner thing' is blocking them. And some others, they just don't want Eames and Bobby together because they don't think they go with each other.
Like I stated it sometime earlier, I was on the fence til pretty recently. A lot of things seemed rather shippy to me but I was like "maybe, maybe not" but when I saw that "Your Heart" sign, I saw no other explanation but 'shippy' I mean, there's no way that sign can mean anything else than "shippy". And like callie put it earlier nothing is accidental: that sign couldn't of been random! Why in the world would "Your Heart" be accidentally up there over Eames' head as soon has Frank asks Bobby if Eames is his wife?????... Think about it!
And now that I'm fully a shipper. I really see now (or stop blocking out) that B/A would indeed make a beautiful couple. And Like tigger. put it, two good people like Goren and Eames deserve to find their soul mates. And I firmly believe now that the one B/A love is closer than they think





LOL... And yes I agree with you all; "Albatross" has nice parallels and sweet shippy moments.





Thanks for sharing with the rest of us! I already knew of this blogger. Thanks to her I learned about the "Your Heart" sign. She is indeed a terrific blogger.



She looks ten years older all worried for her Bobby
Thanks for posting uni.!

you're welcome!



a 'meta tell' from 'faith' (which was on here in canada yesterday.)
i don't have a brain for exact quotes like you, bogoalexea, but Bobby definitely says that an "absence of proof can itself be proof."
i love this scene (pic above) for several reasons - he decides before they leave onepp that they'll go trolling for the professor with a hot grad student and eames is just so happy about getting to go out and play with Bobby. when he appears in the hallway behind the lecherous professor intently reading the notice board (her thesis partner - lol), i crack up every time. and, he says "Alex", which always makes me go 'kah-thud'. mmmmmm ... shippy.

i am totally not disagreeing with your take on his body language in 'faithfully' and 'privilege' ... just think i'm seeing something else going on. (as usual, 'all about eames'.) but, i'm wanting to read some other opinions about his body language before i type out more nonsense.

i agree there is a good reason for leaving the eames family out of the story.

my poorly-made point was that they aren't being left out because it would be too difficult to have them there.
(think of all the crowds of non-speaking extras in every scene.)
eames is always alone for a reason.
and, the only picture of family in her bedroom was that one of her dead husband - no photos of her nephew. and, it's still just a framed pic of a dog on her desk - no nephew. wtf?

i remember in the 'wally stevens' episode, eames says her brother bought a home out wally's way, and she's been meaning to visit him for a few months. (okay, maybe she was making something up for the benefit of getting wally ... Bobby also says he is 'house hunting'.) but, does that seem 'close family' to anyone? and then there is the teasing suggestion of "there was supposed to be more about eames in 'folie a deux' and they changed their minds for some unknown reason" ... and she continues to be reminded of her father's 'professional indiscretion' as late as 'privilege' (i think? in an interaction with the former Harrington family driver, who is also a retired cop.)
as much as i would love to see some amazing guest stars playing 'the family eames', i kind-of feel about it the way i do about 'shippiness' - leaving an unaddressed elephant in the middle of the story is cool, too. we just have to wonder. and get what we get from episodes like 'lady's man'.

Ya know, when you look at this picture, you realize that people are walking and moving around the sign. The cameraman would have wanted to get the words " your heart" in the shot before someone walked in front of it. That is definatley an intentional tell..............

My computer better brace itself for a flood of pics...you can make screencaps yourself from episodes downloaded off of iTunes! (I find this exciting!)

If anyone wants a particular screen cap from Season 8, just let me know, I will be happy to get it for you! I have all Season 8 episodes and various ones from 5, 6, and 7

Actually they said:

"Whose that?"

"My partner?"

"Your partner."

"Not that kind of partner."

but anyways... i'm still on the other side of the spectrum, and i like it there.

have fun!!

~kerli~

LOL, that part always cracks me up too and you're making me love this scene even more uni.
And talking about how Bobby calls Eames, well I think we hear him calling her 'Alex' like 3 times only (in 9 years,lol): First that moment in "Faith". Then we have "Collective", where B/A where undercover in that high school without the zits place... And the last one is in "Amends", where for the first time we see Bobby directly calling her "Alex".... I remember when I first watched it I was like "OMG, he called her 'Alex' for the first time!!!"



You mean the guy at the funeral that Eames seemed to know... If it's him you're referring too, well the ep was "Bed Fellows"


It is possible that you get me one from ITWSH (part I), right before Eames says "there they go oceans two". Goren and Logan were discussion on where a poker club could be and Eames slightly elbowed Barek and said "let's put them out of their miseries" and Bobby give her that sweet look. That's what I'd like you to find: where Bobby looks at her like that! Hope you see what I talking about




However this is the real thing

Frank-- "That woman. Is that your wife?"

Bobby-- "She's my partner"

Frank-- "What are you waiting for?"

Bobby--"It's not... it's not that kind of partner" (then he quickly changes the subject...)

and "Stray" before the cop funeral, he says "Alex" will meet them at the church.

was it "Bedfellows"? they are interviewing some rich person's former driver - he's working out in a gym - and he makes a crack about not every retired cop being on the take, then he apologizes to her, says her old man wasn't a bad cop and she tells him to 'save it'.
anyway ... she's still getting flak for it.

Got it! I assume you mean this sweet look, as opposed to all his other sweet looks ;-) This is fun! hahaha



There is another image I want to get from that scene, at the end where Goren and Logan are actually walking out, and Goren looks back, waves, and mouths "Later" It's cute. The pic is kinda coming out awkwardly but I'll keep working on it!

I just check 'Stray' and he did say "Eames" actually...

And 'Bedfellows' is the ep where the oldest brother was killed by "Daddy's stinky milkshake". Somewhere in the ep the younger brother dies. The wife of the first brother killed both of them. It's that same ep where Bobby at the end told the father "You lost two sons... You lost two"
I think that ep was sort of an introduction to Frank also: brothers, the oldest is the favored one...

Thanks so much You got it!
And that last scene when Goren and Logan are leaving I thought he mouthed "Thank you"... but I never knew for sure.

You're welcome! It's quite possible he said "thank you", it's a little hard to tell (I kinda assumed he said "Later" haha)

Guess I'll just have to keep watching his lips move over and over again...

I thought it was thank you too. Either way it's too sweet .

So y'all think Frank is the voice of some of Goren's subconcious thoughts? The aforementioned "Is that your wife?" and also the infamous "take her to a motel". I watched Untethered yesterday. And there really is no good reason for Frank to say this stuff other than that.

Let me 'splain a little here. My husband's brother is not a drug addict or deadbeat, but..... He and my husband are total opposites and his bro is a bit of a freewheeling screw up. They have a somewhat similar dynamic in their relationship as Bobby and Frank. They don't talk much and there is sometimes tension. And his parents occasionally favor his brother and help him clean up messes that I'm not sure we'd ever ask them to help us clean up.
Anyway.... even though they are not close now, they grew up together and have this weird unspoken insight into each other. That only two people who grew up together can have. (I am an only child, so I don't fully get this).

I guess I think Bobby and Frank are this way too. And even tough Frank is/was a druggie loser, he still has that insight. To see into his brother's intimate thoughts.

Lecture over now.....

i agree with this take ... the way you phrased this, scarlet ... "Frank is the voice of some of Goren's subconscious thoughts" gives me goosebumps. yes, exactly.

i only saw two episodes actually during season 7 (ctv started broadcasting this ghastly 'made in canada' thing during ci's time slot, and we didn't get to watch season 7 anymore ... even when the listings guide said it was on. )
'untethered' was one of them. i went 'what the eff did he just say?'
and a shipper was born.

kerli has made this point many times (and i agree with her) - Frank knows exactly how to get to Bobby in a nanosecond. only our siblings can do this to us - push our hottest, most raw buttons and send us stratospheric like that. yup, mine can still do it to me. it's like sport.
imo - the scene says that Bobby wants (very much) to take Eames to a motel room - such a crude, disrespectful thought ... his violent reaction is as much disgust with himself and his 'yearning' as it is with his horrible brother.

Frank isn't afraid of Bobby here, even though he has just thrown him into a wall. (having an angry giant throw us would scare most people) Frank worries about what his neighbours will think.

he's confident enough with his own power that he taunts Bobby ('he only escaped because he wanted to save your ass.') man, that's cold.

but here, he is cowering against a wall.

Frank's response to Bobby's rage is very telling. (touched a nerve much?)

Agreed! Logan doesn't look back at Barek at all, but Goren's saying "bye, thanks, I'll be back soon" to Alex with his body language as they head off to the "boys' club". And ugh--Alex and the boys club. Luckily she's got someone to go (Bobby) who isn't the member of any "boys' club" . . . .

Wow--not a lecture--great thoughts! Too true about the "no good reason to mention it otherwise". And between Frank and Frances, it comes up several times. Could have ended up on the cutting room floor, but it didn't. Why does your family (at least sometimes) know more about a situation than you know yourself?

My sister and I, 18 months apart, grew up super-tight, as was necessary for survival in Crazyhouse, but we've markedly grown apart. When we do talk now, we both have jaw-dropping moments of insight where in hindsight something's like "duh" that the other didn't get. For example, "Carol" totally picked up that the guy I was dating at the time, who I thought truly loved me, was playing me. She was like "Yup--can't you see x, y, z ?" Um, nope, I couldn't. Ditto from me to her, regarding a best friend's betrayal. We do the "significant other" screening on each other as needed, and each of us, in the end, at least with regard to "love life" issues, has always been right. She even warned me about my now-failed marriage. If only I had listened more to my sister . . . .

So yes, Frank sees either that Bobby is lying to him about his relationship with Alex, or Bobby is lying to himself about his feelings towards Alex. Shippy either way. And of course the "your heart" display just seals the deal. Frank reads the situation right away--that's another close-as-hell sibling bond thing. When my sister was home for my dad's funeral, she met "Bill" and 5 minutes into the meeting, she pulled me aside and gave me the whole (jaw-dropping) low-down. Criminy, Carol--how do you do that? Maybe I'm just too easy to read. Like Bobby.

Check the siggy.

~kerli~

I love how you put this too scarlet. "Frank is the voice of some of Goren's subconcious thoughts" : right on

I love all of your takes on the siblings thing people. It happens at home for me actually; I always give my mom 'insight' into my brother... We know each others habits and all which is very annoying sometimes... Well, you get the idea

I remember in "Frame", Bobby said that his brother was a junkie for about 30 years... Ok, so Frank started to clearly decline when he was about 20, I guess. These two had plenty of time to discover and know each other. I like to think of their teenage years (lol), and image them bugging each other about girls they like (or helping each other out).

In "Identity Crisis", at the beginning when we saw those two kids dealing with their schizophrenic mom, well the writers were giving us a reflection on what Bobby and Frank have been through Those two kids (Frank and Bobby) where pretty tight.
The fact that they grew up in such horrible circumstances, they shield and protect each other more than average siblings.

Frank was really responsible when they were younger (in "Endgame" Bobby-- who took care of us? Frank-- I did ....)
Another moment, (I can't really remember exactly what Frank said though) when Bobby was inviting him to go see their mom, Frank said something that made Bobby laugh. The laughter was saying "Sure, like that time", see what I'm saying?

But later in their lives (maybe early twenties) something got broken and drew them apart. Unfortunately, the contrary would be way better Like Bobby put it in "Untethered" '...we were both caught in a raw deal. It could of drawn us closer together, but this is it, this is us'

They writers gave us little tidbits on how close these brothers were. And also, I do believe that they hint to us they kinda know each other. Ok, after giving us those little insights, why would they insist on the fact that Frank thinks that Bobby is in love with Eames (only in "Frame", the Eames subject didn't come up...)??? To show us that Frank is a bad person??? Just to pass some time??? Just to continuously point out that Bobby isn't in love with her??? I don't think so

thanks for the animations, kerli. (SHIP!)

yeah, bogoalexea. i totally agree. it's there to get us thinking. it worked with me.

this is what i do when i can't sleep - i decorate.
i've been watching season 8, so here's a season 8 decoration. from 'folie a deux'

and one from 'all in'

(josh snow just called their bluff.)

I have a question to ask. And I won't be offended by anyone's answer....well, unless you call my mother names.

I know that there were some hard feelings between shippers and nonshippers a while back. Hopefully now things are more friendly. And they are so friendly that some of you have suggested that I might change ships because I'm so open-minded. I appreciate the compliment, I do try to see both sides of an issue. I don't see me changing ships, though, and here is the problem. I can't tell you why it's unlikely I would ever change ships without addressing some of the reasoning you guys have presented. I'm not saying your reasoning isn't valid...in fact I find it fascinating. It's just that I have a different view, or interpretation, of a lot of the things you post.

As I have mentioned in the past, when this thread and the 100 Reasons thread were started NOROMOs were asked not to debate or dispute on these threads...they were intended just for shippers to enjoy their shipping without having to defend their views. And I think we mostly honored that. Spook started the "Reasons G/E Shipping Will Never Happen" and invited everyone to post and debate to their heart's content. When it comes to debate, there really wasn't a place anymore. The TSONTS thread is a lot of fun...but it's not really about the debate anymore. There was some shifting and moving and some of the "old" shippers left (like Valley) and "new" ones arrived. And with the new shippers came some new reasons and in-depth looks at nuances of the writing, acting, filming, and so on (and BTW...thank you Tigger, it's been fascinating!).

So...great new discussions. But I feel like I can't take part. I see a different interpretation for some of the things you guys talk about these days (like the Bobby/Frank/Frances dynamic). However, I tried keeping my comments out of the shipper threads and addressing them in the no-shipping thread....and offended some people by not directly addressing the posts in question. So now I feel like I can't talk about it at all because I will offend someone and I really don't want to start a war. I just like discussing...and yes, debating....things like this. I have posted several comments over the last couple of weeks...and then deleted them because I didn't want anyone to think I was derailing the conversation.

I was whining to one of my board buddies last night and she commented that the only place any real discussion of the show is going on is on the shipper threads. And I don't want to offend anyone else here...the tie-clips, the beard, the clothing, how hot the actors are, and anxiety-ridden speculation about the future of the show...it's all fun. Sometimes. But sometimes I just want to talk about the show, the acting, the writing, the....ship or no ship. Tjara has posted some really great comments about symbolism...but the episode threads just don't seem to stay on the first page for long and it gets lost before a good discussion can get going.

So my question is this: Is there anywhere I can post my comments on the things you guys talk about without offending? If the answer is no, that's fine. And in fact, if you want me to delete this post, let me know and I will.

can only speak for my own self, but i'm fine with a few noromos on deck. we knew you were stopping by from time to time, ciaddict, so imho you ought to be able to offer your 2cents.
we the current crew of Shippers don't always agree, but i am absolutely certain that we all agree that any and all disagreements will be civil, or will be let go. no point in folks getting mad about differences in opinion about fictional tv characters - that's silly ... we came here to have fun.

but i get your hesitation - because of the (especially recent) history of animosity elsewhere on the board, i'm hesitant to post anywhere but here. a few of us are 'sensitive' and would like to stay that way.
i appreciate your approach ciaddict - thanks for being so respectful and cautious.
and if some shippers have concerns with you or with other guests, i know you can work it out peacefully. that's how Shippers roll.

i can tell the difference between 'respectful debating' and evisceration (as miss scarlet put it awhile ago) or mean, passive-aggressive low-blows (<i'm particularly good at these, but i don't want to be that kind of person), nasty head games, ridicule, etc.
i know i am speaking for the whole crew when i declare that those sorts of things are definitely not welcome aboard the Ship. we might make mean people walk the plank. maybe we should reserve the right ... make a fancy 'walking the plank' ceremony.
joking, right? we still have a canoe. we'll just set you adrift. (lol)
i'm not at all into shunning or banning or isolating or ignoring ... life's too short and sweet for such nonsense. how many billion people in the world? look how much we have in common, criminal intent fans. we all speak English, have access to tv, access to computers and internet connections, an unhealthy obsession with some tv characters ... (okay, speaking for myself with this last one.)

Shippers?

and speaking of mental illness,
i want to know what y'all think about Bobby's family and mental illness.
my take on it :
it's impossible now to conclude that Frances' schizophrenia was an inherited biochemical disease. schizophrenia is a cluster of symptoms, and not a single 'disease' per se. it does run in families, usually presenting at between 18 and 25 years of age. it's not curable, and is often only barely treatable.
However, major psychosis can be triggered by external traumas (happens to combat veterans all the time), and is sometimes labelled 'schizophrenia' in the absence of any other conclusion. a better conclusion/diagnosis for Frances would have been 'extreme emotional distress and dysphoria caused by extreme physical and psychological torment.' but she didn't tell anybody, so she couldn't receive the kind of care that would have helped her to be well again. NOT a value judgement directed at the character or anybody who 'didn't tell'. a social commentary, maybe, that women internalize blame and shame to such an incredible degree that many women never tell anyone when things like this happen to us.
i also didn't get that Donny was bipolar. i got that he had been given a convenient diagnosis in Tates, but that he wasn't actually ill - he was terrified of a real threat. (when you're freaking completely out because someone is going to kill you, that's a normal response, not an indication of mental illness, and don't ever let anyone tell you different.)

First off, I can say that I really enjoy knowing you here on the LOCI board, ciaddict. I think you are very fair and open-minded and tolerant. I think I can see both sides too (well, usually), because people can definitely change my mind, and I have changed my mind on this board in the past. Like you said, for me, reading the noromo ideas is fascinating. It goes without saying that I think I'm right as a shipper, because everyone thinks they're right, or else they wouldn't have an opinion. Or they'd be fools to champion a stance they think is wrong. I think that's the inherent "problem", if you can call it that, in that both sides of course think they are right, and it's not too hard to cross that line from civil disagreement to belittling and nastiness.

Absolutely no name-calling here. That's why the shippers are in this "safe" space anyway--all ideas are considered, and then others chime in to either support or disagree with them. I think if I posited the idea that Ross wanted to break up Bobby and Alex because the captain was really Beelzebub in a clever curly-haired disguise, shippers would not call me names but would certainly (I hope) convince me I was wrong about that. Or not.


I agree, which is why I'm over here the vast majority of the time. The irony is that the shipper subforum, which was traditionally romantic and emotional, is where I go to "think" about the show, and the main board is where I go to "feel" and swoon over VDO. And I certainly don't mean any offense in that either.


Oh my goodness--do not delete your post!!!!! I'm not a real professor--I just play one on the LOCI board --but I would be a very narrow-minded imaginary professor if I did not encourage healthy discussion. I think the question is where it's most appropriate. I agree--putting it on TSONTS just shouldn't happen. If we put it all on "All the Reasons Shippiness Will Never Happen", that kind of gunks up what's pretty much become the noromo thread, and if we put it on the "Bobby and Alex shipper thread", that really doesn't work either because it's now no longer just shippy.

Hmmmm . . . I know I brought this up before, but maybe I'll float it again. I think each group, noromo and shippers, should have their own "sandboxes", which already exist ("All the Reasons" and "Bobby and Alex Shipper thread"). If you want to discuss some topic among like-minded shipmates, your "sandbox" will be the place to post it (obviously, without demeaning the other side). For example, the concept of "Are they in love but haven't acted on it, or have they already coupled up?" presupposes shippiness, so that would go on the B/A thread.

If we had a third thread, we could stick the "have at it, I'm up for debate" points there. It's kind of hard to say exactly where certain topics would fall, but I'm thinking the rule of thumb would be, "If you want the other side to chime in and/or potentially refute it, post it on thread 3. If you want to sort out your thoughts among your own shipmates, post it on your own thread". Would that work? I'm proposing this because that way everyone still gets a "safe" space, and if you never want to leave your own sandbox, you never have to leave your own sandbox.

And I'm imagining that topics could cross threads once they are open to debate from the other side. So if a shipper decided to play with the concept that "Betrayed is shippy because of x, y, z", that could be fleshed out in the B/A thread and then brought into the third thread for "open" discussion.

Then there's stuff that neither shippy nor non-shippy--I know I posted something about the blocking in the aria in Family Values. I guess that could go there too. I dunno. OK, now I'm rambling. ciaddict, I'm going to ask your input as a moderator on this one, but I do have a suggested thread title: "All In". I mulled over "The War at Home", but that sounded a little too, you know, confrontational, bloody, and violent.

Thoughts? Anyone, anyone?

after just a surface examination (totally prepared to be wrong about this) it seems like there are more 'shippy camera angles' in episodes directed by certain people. for example, 'alpha dog' is a frickin ship fest. it was directed by Norberto Barba.
anyone done an in-depth analysis of this?

and i concur. what tigger said. me too.

As long as we respectfully agree or disagree with each other, I'm ok with anyone joining our "safe" place

And tigger. you have a nice idea on the different thread thing ...



Before you brought up this topic "Does mental illness run in his family?", I always used to believe that indeed mental illness runs in Bobby's family. What used to make me so sure of this was when in "Seizure", where the bad guy asked him if he studied some brain field they were talking about, Bobby answered "By necessity, family history of schizophrenia"... That was our first hint that somebody in his family was mentally ill. But he used the word history... Does he know of any grand-parents or other people in their family tree who had it? Or was he just referring to his mom?
Come to think of it, back then he didn't have any clue of what happened between his mom and Brady... So I'm on the fence on this topic. But I'm more on the side that he is predisposed to schizophrenia.

I know that being predisposed to schizophrenia doesn't make you automatically doomed to manifest it sometime in your life. So I'm thinking that maybe Frances was predisposed to it (like Bobby might be) and the stress of what she's been through triggered an outbreak.
I mean like you put it uni. that had to mess her up, whatever Brady did to her (poor thing ). Her mom was probably the only person who knew of it actually (Frank said that after the 'car crash' she stayed at Grandma's for sometime...).

I remember Bobby told Eames while he was all frantic that his mom was happy, than something changed, she was never the same... Sweet and sad moment and we see Eames trying to calm him down; I love that scene so bad (even though it's painful to watch)
Yes indeed, what Brady did to her was definitely what caused (or helped) her outbreak.

And about Donny, well it's true that we aren't sure that he's bipolar but isn't it before he went to the mental ward that they gave him a quick diagnosis? I think I remember that. And also I don't think they'd send somebody to a mental ward without being sure that he's not ok up there. Remember what Bobby did for the cops to decide to send him to Tates. And despite that they made him go see a shrink to confirm his illness and well, to see what pills should be given to him.

Nice!!!! How cute is that

I think the writers want to show that Frank is trash and only thinks about sex and drugs. He can't see a woman as a friend, even if he knows that Eames is Bobby's work partner. He still imagines them doing more than work. They want to show him as a low-life. But, also, I think they use that excuse to throw those shippy ideas out to us, too, and get us thinking. This is a thinking person's show. The writers like to throw us bones to get us talking and wondering. Also, it allows the writers to take whatever road they want to, in the future.

I like your reasoning, you know? Good thoughts there... yup!

NO SHIP!!! lol.

Wow... bobby looks good. *sneaks off to add that picture to somebody's bebo page*

hehe.

~kerli~

umm.... Don't forget this isn't the place for that...

I just thought I should say this here. And I didn't mean to be aggressive kerli.... Hope you didn't take it wrong!

I always believed that even NOROMOS saw Bobby's jealously in 'Silencer', but thought of it as a protective big brother thing, you know? But now with the new TipSea Thread, I see that they (well, the ones who posted something) didn't see any jealously at all... I frankly find that really funny It's like we aren't even watching the same show. CI is just AWESOME!!!!

And concerning the "empty chair moments" (you know "F.P.S", "Silencer" and "Purgatory"), I love it how the camera captures that. It's like if they are helping us feel the loneliness/yearning with the character. The angle we see is Bobby or Eames looking at the empty chair; that's all that's in our view.

In 'F.P.S', Bobby is lost in his yearning thoughts (I like to say that, don't I? ). But after he throws that wad of paper on her desk, he returns to earth.
In 'Silencer', all we could see is Bobby looking at her empty chair, again lost in his thoughts. He couldn't notice anything around him (and neither could we...) because his mind wasn't there. When Peter calls out to him, he's been awaken from his dreams and back to earth. And that's when we viewers see that Peter and Eames were coming in...
"Purgatory", well, I know I talked about this one already , the camera puts us on Eames' perspective; again we just see her and the empty chair across her. She didn't notice the captain coming and neither did we, why? Well, she too was lost in her yearning thoughts

Ok, I'm done
Hope you guys see what I'm talking about though

I do... But i don't see it anymore. My personal shippyness.

~kerli~

thank you so much for explaining it to me!!! now i dont feel like such a dummy... i thought that i was gonna be a stranger forever because i couldnt figure out how to change it. haha!!

[quote name='unicorn66' date='Sep 17 2009, 12:12 PM' post='1199470']
imo - the scene says that Bobby wants (very much) to take Eames to a motel room - such a crude, disrespectful thought ... his violent reaction is as much disgust with himself and his 'yearning' as it is with his horrible brother. [quote]

wow couldnt have said it better myself!!

i go on vac for a couple of days and all kinds of stuff to talk about is going on!! so much fun!!! thats why i love this post. we have really cool conversations. dah-ling this is so much fun!!!

ok so i just realized that i dont know how to paste mutiple quotes so anyways i guess i will have to post separately until one of yall technologically advanced, kind folks tells me how to do it. haha!!

anyway i was thinking about frame. i was thinking about the notion of how bobby just talks to eames regardless of everybody else in the room. (yes its FPS conversation again.) haha!! i cant remember who brought it up (sorry) and i was struck by how during the scene where rodgers tells bobby it wasnt donnie's heart bobby is really only talking to eames. when you watch that scene rodgers is talking to bobby and he will respond but his attention never stays on her. he always looks to his left. he even responds to rodgers by looking to the person on the left. (kind of rude actually- but shippy rude so it doesnt count ) when the camera pulls back we can see that thats where eames is standing - on the left.
another point that i noticed in this scene is that he doesnt really get upset until eames disagrees with him and then his voice changes and he yells, "dont take that side" which to me is telling. its not a "you are wrong", "you dont know what you are saying", its a "dont side with them, you are supposed to be with me". awwww how shippy!!!! back to the voice change...VDO is great b/c you can tell so much just by his voice. hes usually gentle and his voice is personal with eames (heart burst with shippyness) --but really hes much quieter and not as arrogant. its almost the same voice he uses with declan. not ross tho. id have to review decan to see how he talked to him. but his voice is def different. depending on who he is talking to. anyway random thoughts. vacation was great but its also great to be back on the ship !!!

[quote name='jr003' date='Sep 20 2009, 08:37 PM' post='1201299']
[quote name='unicorn66' date='Sep 17 2009, 12:12 PM' post='1199470']
imo - the scene says that Bobby wants (very much) to take Eames to a motel room - such a crude, disrespectful thought ... his violent reaction is as much disgust with himself and his 'yearning' as it is with his horrible brother. [quote]

wow couldnt have said it better myself!!



sorry unicorn66 that was supposed to have quoted you at the beginning. dont know what i did wrong so that it didnt put the quote in the box thingy. one day i will be totally computer savvy. and then pigs will start to fly... so maybe, on second thought i should make do...

another point that i noticed in this scene is that he doesnt really get upset until eames disagrees with him and then his voice changes and he yells, "dont take that side" which to me is telling. its not a "you are wrong", "you dont know what you are saying", its a "dont side with them, you are supposed to be with me".


Exactly how I saw the scene! Eames is all he has. If she disagrees w/ him, he is lost. He wants her on his team, shippy or not. She is supposed to think the same way he does. He doesn't want her to let other people hear that she doesn't agree w/ him. They take her as credible, but not necessarily him. Anyhow, he kinda thinks they share a brain, now.

i for one would loooooove to know how what you think about the frank/frances/bobby dynamic! before i became a member and was just lurking -your posts were always one of the ones i would recognize and pay special attention to. (other people had good posts too dont wanna leave them out) i for one enjoy a good debate. what makes this thread so exciting is that everybody is so willing to back up their points. its very much a "thinking" board. i think that anybody can have an opinion as long as you are willing to back it up. people having other opinions does not offend me. we shippers "want" to see things happen/or we percieve them as happening - so we look at a specific scene with "shipper" glasses. however at least on this thread we almost always have something to back up our opinion- either from another epi, personal experience, or our own view of how things work in this crazy world. noromos are the same- for whatever reason they dont see/dont want to see a relationship so they will view the same scene we thought was so shippy through "nonshipper glasses". it doesnt mean that either of us are right or wrong. its just how different people view things. reality is relative. i didnt start watching ci with any sway one way or the other... it just so happened that one of the first epi i saw was lady's man and i thought "ok so they are sleeping together". i could be wrong, i could be right. thats most of the fun. nobody knows for sure. plus i think that we talk about other points that arent necessarily shippy or nonshippy on this thread. we just like to talk. a lot. so please join us....pretty please???

yup i totally agree with you.. love how you said "eames is all he has". so true. and i also agree with him not wanting her to disagree in front of others. i always have thought she should have waited till they were alone. in the past thats what she did. so i dunno if she thought he was starting to freak out too much - she had to stop his train of thought or what. i also wondered why when declan and donnie were getting hurt/"kidnapped" throughout frame- he never was worried about eames. possibly b/c she was with him??? i dunno. but i love the way he kind of mumbles about nicole killing frank because "she thinks thats all i have" who else does he have if not eames??? he could have been talking about donnie....declan wasnt even in the story at the time. my money is on eames.

Check out the pictures on the Valentine Cat site from Tuesday, September 15. The love he shows for her is written all over his face. Just get past the other pictures on the site first if you can.


http://thevalentinecat.blogspot.com/er

For the quoting jr all you have to do is click on the quote+ sign on the posts that you want to reply to. It will become red. Then click on the bottom 'add reply' thing... Hope this helps

And I really like filligree2's explanation for Bobby's outburst at Eames not siding with him. Well, Eames is the sane one of the two. The captain and company trust her judgment. And she usually does agree with Bobby. So the outsiders are like "ok, she agrees, so what he's saying might not be all that crazy/weird"...
This reminds me of a moment in 'Frame', where Goren explained to Ross about Nicole and B/A were getting out and the captain needed to ask Eames a question. When she at last came out, Bobby just simply asked her what that was about... He knows she's gonna tell him: sweet

Good remark jr! It never came to my mind that it's pretty much the first time Eames disagreed with him in front of the outsiders.... Maybe she thought that was the best way to bring him back to reality? Like to make him snap out of it quick (like you put it) before he goes in to deep.

He needed her to be on his side, but she just wasn't this time. So he decide to go to option B: his mentor...

imho, you have an astonishing memory, especially for exact wording. i am always so impressed by your ability to recall detail. my brain does not work that way. i remember 'broad strokes' and have to work at memorizing details. i nominate you for 'official fact keeper of the uss relationSHIP'.

i also did not know how to properly quote multiple posts ... i'm still learning. So, thanks so much to all you computer-savvy folks who have taught me so much ... this is becoming a whole new tool for me.

jr - are you 'junior' or 'jay-ar'?


this is very interesting to a lot of us shippers besides me, i bet. i still do not understand why 'lady's man' did not completely convince the rest of the ci fans that they are in fact interested in each other in ways that are not strictly professional.
maybe with this new dialogue at the 'tip sea' thread, i'll get to figure it out. i've said before that my noromo spouse conceded it was shippy, too.


i agree, b - it's fascinating! completely different takes on the very same show. how cool is that?



first off - lmao - you kill me.
and jr. i think this is an incredible scene analysis. i CAN'T BEAR that scene. literally, i can't watch. it's excruciating for me - the depth of abandonment and betrayal he conveys in those four words - he IS great ... and you're right on that he doesn't communicate with Eames like that any other time, does he? it's too raw.
i think you've got the 'why' i respond to it like that pinned down here. thanks for the insight.



okay, b, i see what you're saying here, especially about the lengths Bobby went to to get into the isolation unit. i'm ruminating on that chunk. ( i love our brains!! ) i'm still not convinced there was anything more wrong with Donny than a healthy dose of well-placed terror. jail is scary. i'd act like a looney-tunes in jail, too. in spite of myself!



filigree2 - i absolutely agree with this take on Frank Goren. these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive, though, are they? Bobby's brother can be an odious troll, and still give voice to Bobby's own shameful desires. i mean, we're all given a set a baggage we do not want by our lives with our 'families' when we grow up, (don't we??? is it just me????) and spend our entire lives trying to overcome that stuff? be the people we want to be? (though many will argue that change is impossible - there is only coming to terms with who we are ... but i don't believe that.) this interaction highlights how fierce his struggle for the cause of 'good' is. you know? (he coulda gone either way?) when he loses it for that moment, it seems to me that Frank is really afraid of him. (i think it shows that he is 'capable of the rage necessary to take a life' - being in the service of 'good' and being in control is his choice.)
this is what i like most about Goren.

Thank you for the nomination uni.! It really made me laugh
However, I bet I watch the eps way more often than you (in a sick way actually, my folks think I'm nuts...). I have all the eps from season 1 to 8 (well, all the B/A eps). So that does contribute a lot to my astonishing memory



Well, there's the denial factor .... Maybe not that or not just that. I mean the same way we are firm on our side. It's the same way they are firm on their side. As a result they see things totally differently. But what puzzles me the most about them is that despite the "Your Heart" sign (I think you said this before uni.) they still are not convinced. Maybe it does give them doubts but apparently they aren't showing it which I find very weird (which makes me think of denial). Like I said it before that sign made me fully jump on the shipper side because I really couldn't find any possible explanation for it's presence at that moment.
We look at other symbols throughout the show, most of us agree on them. But when it comes to that one clear shippy thing some of us refuse to acknowledge it

O well... in the meantime SHIP!!!!

thanks!!!! i have no idea what i was doin' before but it wasnt that! haha!!



glad im not the only one...hehe!



well....both actually... my intials are JR and at work i put my intials on EVERYTHING i own (OCD works for me ) b/c they take my stuff if i dont- cuz they know it bothers me!! but enough about my psychiatric probs. haha! so anyway one of the girls started to call me "junior" and it stuck.... i know boring story - right??




lady's man was muy muy romantic!!!! the whole thing! he is so territorial throughout the whole epi. eames is def "his property"- the look he give mulrooney at first, the whole following him around-showing up at the bar, the questioning the bartender- everything screams (at least to me) SHIP!! and thats not counting his asking eames THE QUESTION..... like i said before you dont ask or answer a question like that unless you have some sort of stake in the answer. but hey what do i know -i liked this guy at church for awhile flirted with him and he flirted with me - found out later hed been dating a good friend of mine at the same church for over a month and nobody knew... yeah. so i think its totally possible to hide a relationship from people. maybe we see it because we are interested. thats how i figured out about that guy...




makes me wanna cry too esp when i hear the tone of his voice. i always want her to go chasing after him.. she never does tho - no matter how many times i watch it... whats up with that???





so i was watching silencer again....b/c i have no life and im supposed to be cleaning house....yeah i know-get off the computer and finish right?? so anyway quickly moving on... from the recent talk about this epi it got me thinking about it. and it was really weird because watching it this time i saw stuff i hadnt noticed before. i had noticed eames being attracted/nervous when "peter" first shows up, i had noticed bobby staring at her chair, i even noticed bobby trotting behind eames and the peter guy looking like the odd man out. but what i hadnt noticed the first time i watched it was eames calling him "peter" so much. hadnt noticed it at all actually. it was "peter said this" and "peter thinks this" - duh no wonder bobby was jealous!!!! he was getting replaced. and when hes staring at the chair and they both come in- they have their jackets. peter still has his on- she is holding hers. they must have been somewhere. and i have a confession to make... first time i saw this epi i was like "ok wikepedia said there was some jealousy goin' on...where is it????) oh how much i have grown. haha!! but thats the point right? its soooo subtle..

another random thought. did anybody notice the comparison between nichols and bobby in relation to "hey your partner just had a kid?" i had just seen FPS before i watched ( i dont remember which one it was - where eames tells nichols his partner just had the baby- not revelations- the other one) and the difference floored me. i mean nobody had to tell bobby eames had the baby - he told them. and nichols looked at eames after she made the announcment, like "what are you talking about??" that was great!!! it just shows the big diff between the two. bobbys better!!! bobby's better!! (sings obnoxiously)

Well, I second that nomination. You are a great asset in furthering the shipper's argument!!


Couldn't agree more. What I don't get is that we can agree that, say, the tombstone rubbings in Family Values are placed there for a reason (one is even over the dead wife's head--talk about blatant), but the "your heart" sign right over Alex's head is just a coincidence or easily explained away? The entire phrase of "your heart" is shown--not one letter is cut off--it's blatantly obvious what that is saying. They could have filmed that from a different location, or at least chopped off some of the letters. This is a well-thought-out show with a decent budget and very well-paid professional actors. They know what they're doing. This ain't amateur hour on youtube.

And that's just one example! ::gestures to Tells thread::

Either the objects in all parts of the ep are significant or they're not. Either the filming angle and direction in all parts of the ep is significant or it's not. Either the words and themes chosen by the writers and the delivery by the actors in all parts of the ep is significant or it's not. I personally just don't see any magic logic why certain parts of the show, when "neutral" as far as shippiness/non-shippiness goes, are meaningful, but items suddenly become coincidental or explained away when the question of shippiness appears. I'm probably not explaining this as tactfully as I should (soo-prise, soo-prise ), but in all seriousness, I don't "get" that reasoning. Maybe we should bring this to the TipSea thread . . . .

Gawd, this is pathetic--we could talk about this stuff for hours . . . . SHIP!!!!!!!