I've been watching the Westminster show for as long as I can remember, and at the end last night, I had a thought. There are over 150 breeds entered in this show every year. The announcer always says, during the judging, " The judge is looking for the one dog that epitomizes the breed." When I think about it, I can't help but wonder why, out of all those breeds, are essentially the same ones picked? I'll bet that there's over 100 breeds that have NEVER been picked for best in group, let alone best in show. Why is that? Have all of those thousands of breeders never been able to produce a close to perfect dog? Or is it perhaps bias at work, and is the whole thing just political? Think about it.

Lots of different breeds win, it just depends on the year. Even though they seem the same they are usually different. The Australian Shepherd that won was the first that has ever won the group at Westminster. Now poodles do win alot but that Poodle is a top dog in the country and won that group last year as well. The Sealyham Terrier is a gorgeous dog and that breed hasn't won the group in 25 years. The Beagle is also gorgeous (and shown by a friend) and the last time one won the Hound group was in 1939. So although it seems like the same breeds are always winning this is not always the case.

No, I agree...certain breeds seem to always be picked within their respective groups...as I posted on another thread here, the Dobie is picked if not every year, at least every other year and places somewhere in the working group...they have won BIS 4 times since being introduced to the group in 1911; last BIS win 1989; they have won the group overall (1st place) 11 times (2000 being the last win for that)...they have taken 2nd place in the group 11 times as well, last being 2005...3rd place, 10 times, 4th, 7 times...43 wins total, 4 of which were for BIS, for the 97 years it has been in the group...the Rottweiler on the other hand, which was first added to the group in 1935, took 4th place twice in the group, last time being 1996, and only won 1st place in the group once, in 2006...that's it! 73 years the breed has been competing, 1 crummy 1st place win (of the group) and 2, 4th place 'honorable mentions'...that's it!...BIS??? Fugettabout it!

Don't tell me there hasn't been a NEVER been a perfect specimen of the breed shown there...they are beauty in motion; pure muscle that moves with the agility of ANY Dobie! They do not lumber along like other Mastiff related breeds...Rotties move with extreme grace given their size, yet they are continually overlooked for the sleeker in body Dobie! I swear, it's almost like they won't ever pick 2 dogs from 2 different breeds if they have the same color of coat and markings within a group just to avoid confusing the public and judges! Not for nothing, I thought the lady that was judging the working group last night was falling asleep standing there! They had a close-up shot of her several times and her eyes were half closed…not to mention she looked close to 90 yrs old, and could barley walk! You going to tell me she still has a 'sharp' eye? Maybe once…50 years ago!

The Boxer & the Dobie are tied with 4 wins a piece for BIS, with the Newfoundland and Old English Sheepdog are tied at 2 for BIS, Collie (Rough) 1 BIS, the Standard Schnauzer, 1 BIS, and the Siberian Husky, 1 BIS…all total, 15 dogs representing the working group have won BIS in the 101 years since BIS was awarded…the Terrier Group has the most BIS wins with 44...

And I truly believe the negative stereotype Rottweillers have been stuck with is partly to blame...breed discrimination, pure & simple (since Terriers have the most wins overall in the history of the award, what are the chance of a APBT or 'pit bull' which it is commonly referred to as and which is part of the terrier group winning now days with all the negative press they receive???) Not likely anytime soon that's for sure; sadly, the days of 'Petey' the pit bull from the Little Rascals, image is long gone in most people's mind about the breed; it was considered Americas dog at one time...sad fall from grace it has been saddled with; nowdays, it wouldn't be good hype for a 'dangerous' pit bull or (Rottie for that matter) to win BIS...big or small 'cutesy', 'foo-foo' and the occasional seemingly more 'athletic' type of breed (Spaniels, Pointers,…the DOBIE!) always have a better chance for BIS, IMHO...I have a hard time believing that ALL the judges are not biased towards certain breeds...they are breeders usually themselves, and obviously have their own breed favorite...they are still human after all...Ok, I'm done with my rant, but my disgust for breed discriminating 'judges' continues...

I agree with you. I thought the working group judge was going to collapse on the green carpet. What a biased joke the WKC show is. I have an Aussie & yes, I was shocked with the Herding Group win.

Well, to address one point you made, the APBT is not an AKC registered breed and as such is ineligible to be shown in an AKC show. If the breed wants to become a registered breed, then the parent club has to have very strict guidelines as to breeding and tracking of progeny over numerous generations and then apply for membership. I guess at this point it must not be that important to those who love the APBT. Similar breeds (Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier) are AKC breeds and were represented at Westminster.

Your points regarding the Rottie might be well founded; however, always remember in judging that it is one person's opinion on any given day\night. In order to become a judge, a person has to have bred 5 breed champions, been involved in the sport for a number of years and then apply for their particular breed. From here, their assignments expand as they learn more about other dogs within their group; then they learn about other groups. I have a breed that is unique within the Sporting Group - it looks like no other yet most of the judges I have to show her to think of them as black goldens or long coated labs. They have not a clue about the fine points that make her a flat coated retriever - her one piece head, her length of back skull to muzzle, her size, her proportions. Too many within my breed that earn their championships are really black goldens; if the judging does not get better, the thing that sets flatcoats apart will disappear.

Yes, every judge has their bias - you as a handler, you as a breeder just look for judges whose opinion matches your own regarding the breed that you love.

Does anyone know where to find the historical listing of the wins in breed and best in show for Westminder Kennel Dog Show? It would be interesting to see to compare.

Go to the official Westminster Kennel Club website (WestminsterKennelClub.org) and you can look up the records by breed.

My dog was 3rd in the Hound Group this year. It is the first time a Harrier has placed in a group at
Westminster in 33 years (the last time was a Group 4 in 1975). Prior to that one harrier placed three years in a row back in the 1930's ... the dog still used to exemplify the breed in it's literature and the Complete Dog Book. The harrier was recognized by the American Kennel Club in 1877 and has NEVER
won Group One at Westminster ... EVER; forget about Best in Show.

Harriers are a RARE breed in the United States and World Wide. We have a VERY small gene pool. It is much harder, with a small gene pool, to produce healthy hounds that come close to meeting the breed standard than it is if you have a more popular breed, like a boxer or a poodle. Typically, we have about 7 litters (fewer than 30 puppies) born in all of North America each year ... want guess how many litters of Goldens or Poodles or Boxers are born just in the suburbs of New York City each year? That's one of those behind-the-scenes variables that the general public just isn't aware of when they turn on the t.v. to watch. Not every breed is on a truly level playing field. Some breeds have small gene pools, others have personalities or are typically bred for a function that is so unlike dog shows that they just don't "put on a show" for judges/audiences. I sent my dog to be seen and enjoyed by the public ... a rare opportunity given our scarce numbers ... so that people might consider one and meet one (other than by photo on a poster, in a book, or on the internet); winning a placement was thrilling !!!! but statistically speaking, we are definitely one of your Budweiser Long Shots -- we know that when we enter but choose to go to the show for educational purposes. I think I floated all the way home from New York on the thrill of the win, I have to admit!

Thanks so much. Downhome, for directing to the Westminster website. I found all of the records and was fasinated with the vast amount of information available about breeds and BIS wins and judging that goes back to the early 1900's. I have been to that site a numer of times but never saw the records links....duh. Anyway, appreciate the response.

I remember a flat-coated retriever I was really rooting for - this was a few years back but that dog was gorgeous! Everything about that dog, I thought, far out-shown the others and I was absolutely flaberghasted when it didn't win. Wish I could remember the year, 2005 or 6 maybe?

The pet store where I work part time sells supplements, etc. to a BCR breeder here in WI. She's feeding them a raw-food diet b/c, if I remember correctly, the breed is genetically prone to cancer and she's determined to have her dogs live longer than 5-yrs w/o getting sick.

First of all, Westminster isn't a popularity contest.
Secondly, since ALL the dogs are Champions, and the majority are excellent examples of their breed,
there's no way, you're going to see "justice" in the eyes of all the beholders!
I own a rare breed, a Sussex Spaniel. They are almost at the bottom of the registrations list for AKC, even though they were one of the first breeds registered.
The chance of a Sussex WINNING at Westminster are about that of a snowball in Hell.
DO I still want them to be SEEN there? Of course I do! How else is anyone going to see them and meet them?
Most of you who read this are never going to go to a dog show let alone go to New York and the Garden.
Like a number of other breeds, you may NEVER lay eyes on a Sussex or dozens of other lesser known breeds.
Look upon the Westminster show as an educational opportunity that's very worthwhile, not a beauty pageant
or a popularity poll.
I've had a dog (not a Sussex) who took Group 2 for two years running, and it was the highlight of my 33 years in purebred dogs! WInning ANYTHING at the venue is awesome. I love and value ALL my dogs, because ...
they're my dogs!! It's just a fantastic experience to go to NY and compete and see all the dogs and visit with friends.
As to the awful conditions... they're certainly not the best, but understand that these dogs have been trained
from puppyhood, and conditioned to relax at shows under any conditions. They're exercised regularly, have water and fans on them and are only there for one day, each. Their owner or handlers are with them and they are watched like the gems they are. If it's hard on anyone it's the HANDLERS!
If all dogs were as consistently trained and conditioned a these dogs are, we wouldn't NEED rescues, animal control and the like. We serious dog show people love our dogs like our children.
Before you jump in to criticize , try getting to know how dog showing works and what goes into it.
Is their a political overtone? Sure, sometimes there is. What sport is there that doesn't have that?
Still, all in all, it's a pretty clean sport, and great for family involvement.... and it can be fun for the dogs when the humans have the right attitude!