Obviously, I'm a bit biased being a current Bulldog owner and former Chow Chow owner, but I am so tired of the Standard Poodle winning the Non-Sporting group.

In the past 10 years, the Standard or Miniature Poodle has won the group 7 times.

Now I have known many Standard Poodles, and I think they are really great dogs. Ditto for Miniature Poodles. If I could talk my husband into getting one, we would have had a Standard Poodle without the inane haircut, no question.

But there have been some magnificent non-Poodle dogs in the Non-Sporting group over the years (tonight's Bulldog being a great example).

There have been magnificent Chow Chow's, Dalmatians, Lhasa Apsos, Shar-Peis, and Boston Terriers every year. And for the past decade, we were mostly treated to wins by the Standard Mikimoto On Fifth, and now it looks as if we are going to be treated to wins by Brighton Minimoto, his daughter.

So I say let's have a "Poodle" group and let some of the other breeds have a chance...

I thoroughly agree. The AKC and Westminster will never be taken seriously as long as they keep choosing these ridiculously laughable poodles as Best of Group(or worse, Best of Show). Who would be caught walking such a silly dog? Your choice of the word "inane" is perfect. I know poodles are supposedly intelligent dogs, but their owners and breeders obviously aren't. If you want to show poodles alongside "real" dogs, why not give them a normal haircut and let them compete that way. Then we'll see if they can stand up to the other breeds. Not only that, but subjecting these dogs to the annoyance that must be involved in grooming them that way borders on close to animal abuse in my eyes.

There's always a lot of yapping on the Westminster broadcast about how these dog shows help people learn about breeds and choosing the proper pet. But as long as judges keeping elevating the effete idiocy of poodledom, the American public will never believe that Westminster or the AKC represents anything that the American dog-owning public aspires to.

Either put those poodles in their own group or give them a decent haircut!

You're soooo right. Get ready though, tonight you'll be seeing a poodle take the toy group and maybe even Best in Show. YuK!!!!!!!!

Last night, they said that the poodle's haircut was devised to protect their joints when they were working....hello? Is that the breed standard? How about that bulldog and the frenchie, they were awesome and either one should've won that group...

Actually, my question is if the haircut is designed to protect their joints while they are hunting, why aren't they in the Sporting group?

I was wondering the same thing. But I really can't picture a poodle, even unshaved, hunting in a marsh.

I wish the groups would be grouped together differently. Like have the herding & hound groups on the same night as the sporting and working, and put the toy group with the non-sporting and terrier. That way the dogs more likely to have a job wouldn't be competing on the same night as dogs that haven't worked a day in their lives.

Although, I was SO sad that adorable Bulldog was beaten by the poodle. I had a feeling that was going to happen, as it so often does, but I still was hoping.

The poodle that won last night was gorgeous to the standard. It has done alot of winning and that is why it won (it won the group last year as well and is the top non sporting dog in the country.) Other dogs in that group do well also but it goes in streaks just like teams in sports go in streaks. The grooming on a poodle is done for hunting although it has been stylized. The poodle would usually retrieve game from the water so the needed that protection to not get cold. If you go to www.mesabipoodles.com you can see an example of a Poodle hunting kennel. If you want to see the breed standard go to www.akc.org and you can see all the standards under breeds. You can learn alot about the dogs on that site as well as www.westminsterkennelclub.org where you can see who has won in the past, etc.

Zadelstein:

As I said, I'm not anti-poodle - I really *do* like Standard Poodles.

I just find it hard to believe that having a Standard or Miniature Poodle win the group 45 times in the past 84 years (since I checked the historical results at westminsterkennelclub.org) is a "streak". Especially when you consider that in the same time period, both Poodles placed in the top four 28 times, and neither placed in the top four only 14 times. That's a pretty big statistical blip to me.

I realize Brighton Minimoto was sired by Mikimoto on Fifth, who was also an amazing Poodle. But are these Poodles so much more perfect to their breed standard than any of the other dogs in the group?

I think there is an inherent bias in the group that when a good Poodle comes along, then judges (not just at Westminster, but other shows) declare it the best dog in Non-Sporting. It's almost a "safe", default position, as it were. At least that's how it appears to a quasi-outsider who has vets in her family, and breeders for friends. It's not completely wishful thinking

Also, I find it hard to brush it off to "streaks", when you consider that Poodles hold the following records in the Non-Sporting Group:

Most Group wins - 26
Standard Poodle

Most consecutive Group wins - 4
Standard Poodle (1933-36)

Most Group placements - 54
Standard Poodle

Current streak of Group placements - 6
Standard Poodle (1998)

The only one they don't hold belongs to the Chow Chow - Most consecutive Group placements - 11 (1932-42)

As for the hunting - I know they hunt. And I know the cut is stylized. Several of my friends have Standard Poodles as hunting dogs with shaggier haircuts - I've never seen that haircut on an active Poodle. Which, again, makes me wonder why Standard Poodles are not in the Sporting Group. The majority of the non-hound hunting dogs are in Sporting. If Standard Poodles really are hunting dogs, then perhaps AKC should consider moving them.