Hey guys, for those of you that want a debate section, don't look no further.

I made this debate section just for you.

Feel free to discuss anything wrestling wise.

Whether it's NWA, WCW, WWE, AWA, ECW, ROH, The Indies or TNA.

I hope that this helps you all.

You're welcome Bubba, and also, TornadoDDT, since you love the WWE Divas and the TNA Knockouts, you can discuss that in here as well.

Well I run a bit of debate league on cena#1fan's board, so I have some topic ideas. Let me know where you guys stand on the issue and if someone disagrees, we can make a thread about it and discuss.

Edge is the best heel in wrestling today.

General managers (in wrestling) are essentially useless.

Monsters need managers to get over.

The rise of MMA is hurting WWE.

Evolution was better than DX.

JBL should go back to commentary.





Anybody else with topic suggestions should go ahead too.

Edge is the best heel in wrestling today.
This is true. Edge puts EVERYONE over and he actually had Cena over before the feud became a two year deal. Edge is one of the most talented wrestlers in the WWE. I would think that any face would be happy to work with him.

General managers (in wrestling) are essentially useless.
True. The purpose i see for General Mangers (unless they are bookers to) is for storyline purposes. They can advance a storyline with matches. Or they can be heel and try to block the attempts of the face.

Monsters need managers to get over.
Monsters who don't speak English need managers. I think that a few guys like Big Show could get over if they needed but guys like khali and Umaga need managers imo.

The rise of MMA is hurting WWE.
True. The rise of MMA is hurting many sports. The WWE is just one. MMA takes away the wwe's key audience. Males 18-30. More people tune into UFC then they do baseball games and live events and the reality show Ultimate Fighter usually get higher ratings then wrestling programs. MMA isn't just hurting WWE its also hurting TNA to. But I'm not one to complain about the rise of MMA.

Evolution was better than DX.
DX were the faction. Evolution was better than the revived DX.

JBL should go back to commentary.
JBL was the only good Color Commentator. King seems to be full time face supporter. WWE needs a really good color commentator who you just want to smack (for the right reasons.)

I disagree, I mean you of course the monsters who can't speak English (or at least in their gimmicks can't) need managers. But if you take a simple look at guys like Kane, Undertaker, these guys needed Paul Bearer to get them really over with the crowd. They needed him to feul their storylines and gimmicks, which has in part given them essentially the same gimmick their entire careers. Another example is Brock Lesnar. Without Paul Heyman, this guy wouldn't have gotten very far. Many wrestlers get hyped up as being huge when they first hit WWE with promos and such, but what set Brock apart before he even wrestled was his relationship with Heyman.


In addition to stealing ratings, they are slowly taking superstars away too. A guy like Ken Shamrock returned to UFC after a WWF run, Brock Lesnar didn't come back because he wanted to try UFC, Kurt Angle has also been linked to MMA for a while now, Bobby Lashley is said to be interested in making the jump. These are all guys who are over with the fans (despite the crappiness of Lashley) and MMA is stealing these guys and don't need to worry about marketing them. An example of this, Brock Lesnar has only had 1 other MMA fight and he's already near the top of the card for UFC 81.


Though he was one of the best colour commentators, he is even better in the ring and WWE missed him while he was so to speak retired. Not so much on Raw, but on SD. This guy is a good worker, has been able to play both face (APA) and heel gimmicks (JBL) well. He draws heat from the crowd now and is a serious contender for championship gold. I would take a good wrestler over just a good commentator any time.

True, but i still don't think that its necessary to get over. I would agree that in the beginning of their careers most big guys need a manager. But i would say after a year most of the guys have fallen into their own gimmick and can get over by themselves. Of course if a gimmick is a silent gimmick or a "i can't speak english" gimmick they need managers.

The thing with Brock Lesnar is that he talks. So a lot of people are waiting to see if this guy can back up his words. If he can't he'll be back at the bottom of the totum pole. Probably mid card again. If guys have the ametuer experience that guys like lashley have then they can make the jump easier and they will find promotions to get in to. Its just an easier jump for them. They have the wrestling, they would just need to work on striking and jujitsu. I think thats why we may see more guys leave wrestling for something a little more physical and something that doesn't require chair shots. MMA is more difficult but i think that a lot of wrestling guys could make it if they busted their ass. It may become a problem when major stars start to leave for MMA.

Hey guys, here's something for all of you to debate on and this is a good one:

Now, we heard that TNA is now doing a drug test and that means that everyone including TNA Part Owner Jeff Jarrett and TNA President Dixie Carter has to take a drug test as well.

and so, my question to you all is this:

Should the bosses of WWE and UFC as well as the Indies and Ring of Honor all take Drug Tests, too?

THAT'S THE QUESTION!

Please tell me what do you all think about that.

Well I think that they should take a drug test including Vince McMahon, b/c if Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett have to take a drug test, so sould the bosses of UFC, MMA and even the WWE which includes Vince McMahon.

and plus, if Eric Bischoff and Paul Heyman decides to comeback to wrestling or start their own wrestling companies again, they should as well, b/c it should be fair to EVERYONE!

and that's how I feel about that.

You'll have your very few such as Big Show who won't need a manager, but just the pure ratio paints a fairly clear picture. Like you said, they need managers initially to get over and settle into their characters. Without their managers, so many of them wouldn't have the character established to continue their careers.


Well Lesnar has impressed in his 1 match, and yeah of course we need to see more before we can judge. But the wait won't be long. The thing with Lashley is that yes he is an amateur athlete and he has the whole army background or whatever, but I have yet to see much if any submission skill from him. It's no good to take a guy down and lay on top of him if you can't finish him off. Something I'm not sure a guy like Lashley will be able to accomplish as easily as others. And in MMAs, you traditionally need to be pretty muscular yet quick, and many wrestlers don't quite fall into that category. You either have super quick guys who are toothpicks (like London, Kendrick) or you have big muscle heads who can't move for sh*t (Khali, Henry). Your high card guys like Jericho are fairly skinny and not overly quick, Edge doesn't look like he has the striking ability, just a lot of guys fall short in terms of potential.


I don't see how the bosses should even bother. They are ultimately the ones who decide what to release and if they are in fact on steroids or other banned substances, they aren't going to publicize it. Sure in an ideal world, why not, but realistically, whether they say they will take drug tests or not will be pretty much a moot point.

You mentioned other sports, and I don't see the point. Many executives and such don't need to take drugs (excluding Vinnie Mac). Like why have a guy like Bud Selig, a skinny old commish take a test, and so on.

I was talking more of the indies guys. Guys like Lashley like i said need to work one jujitsu. Thats more useful then wrestling because the fact is that when you got a black belt in jujitsu vs. an olympic wrestler i would usually take the black belt. Jujitsu is the submission martial art. And I would like to make a point as to why a lot of wrestlers probably won't want to go to MMA. In wrestling guys aren't going out there to beat the crap out each other. Wrestlers can take pain, but you know that when a guy gives you a chair shot you will have it lined up almost perfectly and they will either not hit you that bad (like a conchairto) or they will with you at the stronger points of the head. In MMA however they're going to hit you. I remember the first time is sparred i got my fracking face smashed with a knee. Most wrestlers aren't used to getting hit, and when i mean hit, i mean they probably haven't been rocked. I have. It took me forever to get used to getting hit and its a fear that most are either to timid to get over or you go in their and get it over with. I don't see a lot of guys wanting to take an elbow to the face.

Agreed. Dana White has a no tolerance policy in the ufc (though Sean Sherk coming back is bulls**t) and thats good enough for me. And plus the guy isn't like vince, he's not roided up. And commissioners in other sports don't need to take test because quite frankly, they're all pretty old.

I think sometimes WWE tries to promote that it's more painful that it probably is. I don't mean it in the ring like you get hit with a 2x4 or anything like that, but like Tough Enough. Instead of doing what they normally do in the ring, they gave stiff chops and actually put them through some pain. So any fairly new superstars may have the impression that it hurts more than it actually does and feel like they might as well try UFC if they can take the soft punishment they already are. So when they think their soft punishment is actually pretty hard already and they want to jump to UFC, that's where they get their asses handed to them without really realizing what is happening.

And I think another factor when considering the UFC is just the competitive spirit of the athlete. Wrestlers are pretty competitive and if it were not scripted, you know none of them would hold back. The competitive drive that exists in almost every sport (and sports like curling aren't included...) will push an athlete to compete harder and at a higher level and at this point, UFC is the higher level of competition. I think that may also be a huge factor in whether they want to consider switching or not.



*EDIT*
Since some topics have been dropped since the beginning and there doesn't appear to be many other members getting involved to keep them going, here's a couple more.

Brock Lesnar was underrated in his time in the WWE.
John Cena is a credible champion.
Chris Benoit deserves to be in the HOF.

Completely true. From my experience doing fighting arts it HURTS to get hit with an elbow. Plus we use the same gloves as the UFC uses, they aren't boxing gloves. They cover the knuckles and thats it. Its pretty much bare fisted and i think that the reason why gloves are used is to say to people who think MMA is to brutal that they do use gloves.

Another good point. I don't doubt the majority of those guy's spirit but again it takes alot of mental strength and a huge will to win to actually take getting kicked in the head or take a rib breaking Muay Thai kick. I was watching a sparring match between an older friend of mine and another fighter in MMA and it turns out my friend went through a whole round with two broken ribs. Thats the kind of will it takes to compete in most MMA leagues. And he will forever have my respect for that.
If anything i think he's overrated. I was never impressed by him. There's many people i have talked to (including people on this board) who say he's HOF level. I disagree with this. If he had stayed maybe he would have gotton that to that level of rememberence (not even a real word i think).

As most would guess my answer, no he is not. He got it to soon (like RKO and Batista). The guy has no skills in the ring whatsoever. I think he's hurting the wwe more because he is overexposed. Sure he draws in kids but when your main audience is male 18-30 more people will be tuning out when he comes on screen.

I used to think so. But now that I've had more time, I don't think he should. It really makes me disappointed that he is no longer mentioned in wrestling but really i don't think a child killer deserves that exposer. And i doubt he will ever be in the Hall of Fame. It was just a really awful situation.

I'm not going to say he's HOF worthy, but IMO, he was damn good. This guy was built up so fast and was able to stay in character and continue through his matches with the same level of hunger as he had when he first debut. He had the size, power, strength to beat a small guy, but the quickness, speed, and agility to beat a big guy. He was one of the better athletes in his time and took his time to develop his mic and promo skills. He got the heat when he first debut, and drew the pops when he turned face.


I'm not going to argue this with you, because I would run out of points quick. The only thing I can say that is a positive about him is that he keeps his head cool despite all the haters and he has good mic skills and charisma, once again considering he's getting the total opposite of the reaction his lines are meant to get.


Even though I doubt he'll get in, I truly believe he should. Of couse what he did in real life is nothing to be proud of, but this is the wrestling hall of fame, meant to celebrate the in-ring work of wrestlers. It's not an award for saying they were a great humanitarian or anything like that, just to say he was a good wrestler. And he was, one of the most skilled technically, intense, consistent, he left it all in the ring for every company he has worked under.

I think the biggest reason why i don't like him is because i think he's sloppy sometimes. Guy almost broke his neck on time. Plus i feel that he's a little overrated. Mostly because of fans of him who says he was the greatest ever and s*it like that.

See I'm not impressed with his Mic skills anymore. He's boring and overused to the point that his mic skills and charisma are old and unimpressive. He's done to much in to little of time and i think thats one of the main reasons why most don't like him.

I believe this is one of the most difficult discussions. Its all a matter of opinion of whether he should be recognized for his talent that he did have. He was one of the greatest ever but i feel like he shouldn't be remembered publicly which is sad because he really did a lot of great stuff. Maybe ten, fifteen years down the road he will start to be remembered. I don't really want it to happen but it could.

Man, TNALDF, you really need to get those quotes down right. I couldn't even quote your argument right to refer to what you were saying.

I can't give much of a rebuttal if you only give me 1 line of material to work with...

I think WWE needs monsters. I mean guys like Vadar, Bam Bam, Taker, Kane, all have contributed very nicely to the company.

The 4 Horsemen weren't even one of the options...


Even though I agree he should be wrestling, reuniting with Ron would be a pretty bad idea. Ron is pretty old and he had his match after his return and it was nothing impressive. Your claims of not liking his character and him not needing to go back to commentary would be better if you actually posted reasons for your decisions.

Once again, Tazz wasn't even involved in the discussion, I don't know why he snuck in there somehow.



Yes he does botch quite a few moves and isn't the cleanest, but really not every botch was actually a bad thing as weird as that may sound. The one on Hardcore Holly, Holly was sandbagging and there was nothing else Lesnar could do. It was either drop him and finish the move, or hold onto him forever. Another one that comes to mind is the match he had with Kurt Angle and he attempted the shooting star press. I think despite the botch, just him attempting that move was huge already. There's very few, if any, big guys that would even try to expand their moveset to the extent that Lesnar did.


Much like his merchandise, and his wrestling, and anything else he touches or does, it's overused and we are sick of it.


I would doubt it could, because some other HOF in other sports have stopped players who haven't really been models of ethical behaviour. Guys like Pete Rose who gambled and is not aloud in the HOF despite how good a player is was. I think his work speaks for itself and he should be in, but the chances of him getting in are very slim. Maybe if they find out somebody else killed all 3 of them, but who the hell is even looking into that anymore.

Sorry, but I'm just trying to get use to debating when it comes to wrestling on this forum.

No prob, just take what I said as constructive criticism. Don't let it discourage you from continuing.

I agree that the WWE needs monsters. Every wrestling promotion needs two or three good to great monsters. Think of what Taker has done for the company. The problem is that the WWE really has no decent big guys besides Kane and Taker. Khali is abysmal (is he even in the wwe anymore?) and umaga is just more of an annoyance. He's more muscle for the heels.


I really liked JBL in APA but i love the guy on commentary. He made me laugh a lot. Kind of like what King used to do.


I have to say that he really did impress me trying that. The guy is really big and to try that was pretty cool though he could have killed himself. I still find him to be overrated in many ways but i will give him credit, it was kind of like Angle doing a moonsault at the top of the cage. It was kind of cool to see guys try it. But when i saw Lesnar do it i was like "Did he just kill himself on National television." It was good t.v.

Just I guess a spawning from your response:
Is Umaga overrated?

I'll go with no. This guy drew the heat when he debut (granted he crushed jobbers), but he played his character well. He has a unique look with the face painting and hair. He has a large variety of moves for a big guy and is capable of things that sometimes surprises you. Makes you wonder why guys with larger movesets don't get a bigger push when you have guys like Khali walking around.


Yeah, before he went pervert 24/7.


I loved that Angle spot. It was not only surprising, but it was executed pretty nicely for a guy with little experience in doing it, and from such a high height. And actually, Brock has done a shooting star press before his time in WWE, it might be on youtube somewhere if you want to look for it.

I agree. He's probably the best newer monster in the wwe. He actually has Top Buckle moves. He's underused now being as he seems to be more muscle for heels. I actually don't like him because of his heel gimmick.

On a side note i am officially saying that Frank Mir will in the fight between Brock Lesnar. But i expect Brock to impress immensely. his first fight was ok, he didn't fight the most impressive guy in the world, but i think that Frank Mir is just to good for his second fight. Second round Arm Bar, Frank Mir is a beast when he is in guard.

I kind of think that's where he belongs. It's hard to create a face when his character isn't suppose to speak English and most faces need to be on the mic to be successful. I think monsters probably fit a heel role better because any victory they get they show dominance. Any defeat they take the face gets credibility. It doesn't really work the other way around.


Just from the freakishly athletic ability and strength of Brock, I think he really has a chance to shock the world. Yes Mir has been in the game longer and has honed his skills better, but sometimes raw talent can just take over, and as we've seen in Lesnar's first fight, he can pound the sh*t out of you.

.
Oh i think he should stay heel is just that i kind of get tired of him going out and being muscle for other heels.


Yeah but the thing is that Frank Mir has an awesome guard. He snapped Tim Silvia's arm from guard. But the thing i will say is that Brock is really driven and if he worked on his jujitsu it will seriously help him in this fight. If he hurts Mir then starts pounding on him the fight will be over with Lesnar winning. If he takes Mir down and Mir gets his submission skills going Lesnar will either not be able to do much and probably get stood up again or Mir will submit him with a triangle or an arm bar.

Unfortunately, when you don't get the push that I feel he deserves, that's really all they can do with him. Either that, or not wrestle at all.


Well the only plus side is that Mir's losses have all come via knockout, so that plays well into Lesnar. Only 1 day away from the fight, I look forward to downloading it How are you going to watch it?

Kind of looking forward past this PPV, can't wait for UFC 83 where GSP will win the Welterweight championship!


Just to throw in a couple more topics:

Mick Foley is a glorified stuntman.
TNA will eventually become the next WCW.
HBK is better than HHH.

wrestling is the best tv show that u can watch on tv i never forget to watch wrestling i alwayz watch it on mondays which in monday night raw, tuesday which is ecw, and friday which is friday night smackdown, dont forget to watch wrestling tonight friday night smackdown at 8pm

Thats what most people I've been discussing say what lesnar should do. Try his striking because Mir is so good on the ground. I won't be able to order it so I'll have to find a site that carries it for free. I usually watch it at a friends house or a sports bar. If you know where to look i would like to know please.

I'm looking forward to GSP kicking Serra's ass. Then I want to see GSP beat the crap out of Hughes again. Then I want to see BJ Penn fight both GSP and Hughes.

Yes but thats why i love the guy. He's so crazy. Thats all that i can really say about him.

TNA has a chance of being better then WCW. They were on the right path right before Angle came with the push they had with LAX. They just destroyed a lot of the great stuff about TNA. They just haven't been doing great stuff that they did earlier in TNA.


True. HBK is better than HHH. I've liked most of everything that HBK has done. I really liked watching him in the ring more than HHH. I think that HBK has really helped the business and he's revolutionized wrestling in his own way. He's one of the few WWE superstars that i watch now. But i also think that HBK is only slightly better than HHH. Both are extremely good at what they do.

Do you like...work for WWE and work for their marketing team or something?



I don't have anything live, but maybe a week after the fight happens I can download it and possibly upload it if the file is under the 500MB limit I think megaupload has.


I'm actually pretty new to UFC (only watched maybe 6 or 7 matches), but is Hughes the #1 contender for the Welterweight championship? I thought BJ was going to go after GSP for his next fight as his rematch. Then despite me liking The Prodigy, I still want GSP to take him out


Should he really be so famous and have legions of fans for essentially not knowing jack about a real wrestling match when guys like Lance Storm slowly fade out?


I'm not sure whether they can reach the WCW level. I mean WCW had beaten up on WWF at the time, for the longest time and they seem to be pretty far out and haven't gained much ground for a while. They've gone from a new product with exciting and talented superstars, to pushing WWE rejects a little too much. If they keep making decisions like Shark Boy, they won't get very far. Gillberg anyone? They need to reinvent themselves a bit and for the most part they had done that in the past with the 6-sided ring, the great X-division, LAX, Samoa Joe, and others. Nothing great has surfaced in quite a long time except the women's division being formed.


I think HHH is more consistant and doesn't piss me off as much for whatever reason. I think HBK's matches are probably more exciting and he can play a face character better, but HHH plays the heel character better and can sell better. One thing in particular that I hate about HBK is the kip-up he does. Any damage, any "injuries", basically the whole match is thrown out the door when he does that because he's basically just not selling anymore and it kills the match for me. Just like when Hogan is hulking up, it's pretty pointless and just messes up all the hard work up until that point. And he does it in like every PPV too.

Thats what i was thinking.

Cool. I usually check youtube.
Hughes isn't. GSP beat him at UFC 79 i believe. I'm glad he did because Hughes is an ass. I expect to see BJ take out Hughes and embarrass him. Then I want to see BJ beat GSP. If you've ever seen the BJ vs GSP fight i thought BJ won.

No he shouldn't. But the guy did enough crazy stuff to endear him to alot of fans. Its all a matter of pushing guys. Lance Storm doesn't get a push therefore he fades out.
I think if they played their cards right they can become a big organization. I agree though that they don't have anything to special out anymore. What can i say, i thought LAX was the greatest thing in wrestling and TNA had them, but then TNA managed to screw that up.

I can see where your going with the coming back in a match. I personally enjoy him doing that stuff but i think that he should take a few hits and just not come back like Hulk Hogan does.

Yeah that was one of the few fights I've seen. I saw BJ vs GSP, Liddell vs Silva, GSP vs Hughes, BJ vs Stevenson, and then some other ones a long time ago and can't remember who were involved. I'm actually looking into watching a Randy Couture one. Any suggestions?

And like I mentioned, I saw the BJ vs GSP one, and I actually thought GSP got it mostly because of the takedowns in both rounds 2 and 3. It was definitely a close one, nothing too major happening in terms of strikes or anything, but I think it was ultimately the takedowns that cost BJ.


Which is rather unfortunate. There are so many guys that train in wrestling for so long, and then they lose out in a popularity contest to a fat guy who takes punishment and really that's all he does. The only thing that I'll give Foley for is his gimmicks. He had so many gimmicks and he was able to pull off essentially all of them...even Dude Love.


The huge blow for them was losing out on Konnan. TNA will spend money on signing guys like Road Dogg and Billy Gun, but they won't spend money to help with Konnan's surgery when he is the leader of their best faction ever. It's things like this that could end up killing a company if they keep giving reasons for their top stars to leave.


It gets matches really predictable too. You see both guys down, he lies in position for the kip-up, and you know it's coming. Not that it's not cool and not hard to do (I wish I could...), but it just doesn't add much to the match IMO. He's never going to drop it, so there's not much light at the end of the tunnel for me.

His first fight with Chuck Liddel, and his two more recent ones vs. Tim Silvia and Gabriel Gonzaga. I think the Silvia fight is on of his best preformences because he over came size advantage and kicked silvia's ass. Most of Cotures fights are good fights.


When you look at the take downs its BJ who punishes GSP after he takes BJ down. Now i don't base fights on the look of the fighter but if you looked at GSP post fight he was fracked up. That has nothing to do with the fight but damn he was fracked up.


I agree i like Lance Storm. More than Foley, if anything that made Foley famous was his gimmicks. Mankind comes to mind over all of them.


Exactly. It was incredibly stupid of them, and now their best faction is reduced to doing nothing from what I've seen. LAX had it all, the big muscle guy who could still do incredibly athletic moves, the smaller guy (who by no means is small) who will do fast stuff plus powerful stuff, the wicked finisher (gringo killa or cop killa depending on if its tna or indies) and the awesome promo skills of Konnan. I swear some of his are the best ever. I thought he was done after 3 live kru and early in lax but he came out of no where with these promo's. Also we've seen alot of wwe guys go to TNA but I'm not surprised to hear that a lot of TNA guys want to leave TNA for the WWE because they think its a better situation then they have in TNA. Thats not good for TNA at all.


Its like what Taker does for me. I think that its just cool but I would also like to see him get beat after he does his thing, that he gets his head taken off by a close line or a spear or something.

I just saw the Liddell one, and man did he beat him at his own game. Couture was on the offense for so much of the match against an aggressor. I also got to see the Silvia one (he's got a little body fat doesn't he ) and he dominated that one too. By the end of the fight, Silvia's left eye was bulging out like crazy. I loved the head movements during on Couture's side. He was able to dodge so many punches and then come back and land a couple himself. Not to mention all the takedowns from a guy down quite a few pounds and height. Unfortunately I couldn't find Gonzaga's fight on the network I'm connected to, but o well, I've got a lot of other stuff just waiting for me to watch on my computer anyways


I like BJ just has the pudgey thing going for him and it absorbs some of the contact

And since I'm kind of new to UFC, how exactly does the scoring work? I always see the rounds being scored 10-9 for whoever whether that person dominated the round or barely won it.


On a poll on Cena#1fan's sight, it was about which Foley persona was better. And I agree with you, I would take Mankind, which was why I was so surprised that Cactus Jack took the poll.


I think a lot of the younger and less established guys are kind of using TNA as a stepping stone. Kind of like an audition for WWE and once their contracts are up they want to jump over to WWE regardless. Hell, I would be doing that too if I was trying to make a living.


Good point, I never really even considered Taker. But it matters less for Taker because he's cooler But seriously, it does go with his gimmick better as a guy coming back from the dead to doing that sit up. Meanwhile, HBK just does it...for not much reason. Also, Taker has sat up before and on numerous occassions been knocked back down to his back, so it's not like it's an automatic for him. HBK I am having problems remembering the last time he did a kip-up and got knocked back down on his ass.

*yawn* I wonder if anybody else on this board looks in here or can hang with us Slash


*EDIT* Brock got owned at 1:30 in the first round...

Tim Silvia is one of the most boring fighters in the UFC. They guy just puts you to sleep. Thats why the Heavyweight division needs someone like lesnar who is fast and is big and strong.


BJ is a badass though. He and GSP represent the next generation of fighters. Someone who's good at everything. But BJ is a beast on the ground. He was the first non Brazilian to win the Jujitsu championships there.
10 points are awarded to the fighter who won that specific round. The loser is then granted up to 9 points based on offense and defense. If a person is dominated then they may only be awarded 7 points. Its a complicated thing but the person who has Octagon control and is more aggresive and controls the fight the most is awarded the round. The thing is that the judges are so fracked up sometimes that fighters will try and end the fight before the third or fifth round. But if a fights close then you may see a 29-28 decision. If its not as close then can be a 30-27 round and so on. And if a judge sees it different from the other judges then it can be a split decision. Its pretty interesting to see how they score fights sometimes.


Thats weird. I always thought that Mankind was his best gimmick.

True. TNA underpays a lot of the people they should be paying well. The WWE does notice TNA's talent and i bet they are trying to capitalize on the younger stars.


Yeah thats why i want to see HBK get knocked back down. It becomes less predictable. And i kind of wish some crazy cena marks or someone would come on these boards. Nobody likes to debate. And it may sound bad but i kind of enjoyed fighting with TNALockdown.

Unfortunately with Lesnar's debut tonight, he won't be champ for quite a while. Talk about a fast main event ending.


GSP never gets on his back though. I think I heard something like GSP hasn't been on his back for more than like a couple of minutes even if you add together ALL his fights. And BJ is badass enough to knock over a cop and get put on probation


So no matter what, they will get 7 points even if they get crushed? If so, why not just score the round out of 3 and have the winner get 3 and the loser get from 0-2.


Back when he was with Paul Bearer he was wicked

Taker seems to have a tendency to fight people with masks now that I think about it. Guys like Kane, Mankind, Vader...weird.


How cool would it be if Ron Killings was told by WWE to go into TNA and get dirt on them and then return to TNA. Speaking of which, when he returns, who do you think he should form a faction with? Let's debate about this one, this could be fun. Also, who should the faction feud with?


Ahhh yes, fighting over the internet. Nothing beats it...butthead! *pushes you over*

I'm actually trying to get into that Alex guy who made the thread about the women's division.

From what I've read it sounds like Lesnar was winning the fight but Mir caught him with an armbar so Lesnar stood up and Mir got him with an Arm bar. Lesnar will be back. He'll have to lose the next two fights to lose his job in the UFC.


GSP is so badass he got knocked out by a guy whose known for his jujitsu.


No. Most judges will give them 6 or 7 points. I believe they have to get at least six so if they win the next two rounds they can at least win. I think its a screwed up system.


Interesting.

crap i don't know. I'm so out of TNA right now. Killings is going to the WWE still right? I'll look at some videos and stuff so i can actually have a good answer.


Its fun when people take it so seriously. People here don't want to even debate let alone argue about something. I've been reading the Women's division posts. Its funny that he won't even answer your question directly.

Yeah from what I read Lesnar had a take-down like 5 seconds into the fight and had a lot of short quick hits. Then the ref called for a stand-up (and Lesnar lost a point) for hitting the back of the head, and he didn't get a warning. Then he knocked Mir down again with a punch and like you said he had to stand up from an armbar. But I think he lost by a kneebar.


Mulligan.


Yeah I would rather judge them by like how many big hits or takedowns they get without a limit.


From what I hear he is suppose to return to WWE. I haven't seen him in a match for the longest time, but I have an idea of who I'd like to see him with. I'll wait for your response before I unviel my master plan storyline!


Yeah boards aren't so fun when you always agree with someone and a thread can't get any further than 4 posts. Wait a minute...I just agreed with you too...

And yeah that thread is my attempt to actually get some action (no not that kind of action...). I've waited for him to post in other threads and then I respond in that thread to tell him to answer my question in the other thread. I'm so bored.


Here's another couple topics:
WWE should scrap ECW
ECW needs a tag team division

He lost by a kneebar. It sounds like Mir took him down and locked it in. Lesnar will need to work on his jujitsu.


Que?

Thats what they say they do but i think that the whole judging thing is Horse Hockey!. I've seen fights that should have been unanimous decision go to split decision and guys who should have won the fight losing the fight. (Michael Bisping vs. Matt Hamil)

LOL. Just found that funny.


I'm starting a fight.

They should. ECW is terrible. Its just a dumping ground for people who will either retire or people who will be fired or people who won't stay in the WWE long. Hardly any matches deliver and now they have CHAVO as their champ. All in all its a waste of money.

What ECW needs is a hardcore title. No tag team division will save ECW. Its dead, all the WWE needs to do is nail the coffin and put it into the ground.

I think only a bit, his strength is his striking and he could establish himself like Liddell has as a striker, then whatever wrestling/jujitsu he has picked up can be that more surprising when he finally needs it.


Mulligan. Kind of like a do-over, it doesn't count.


I mean like not have the winner get 10 points. Like if the winner of the round got 15 bit punches, give him 15 points. If he only managed 2 takedowns, give him 2 points.


Mine looks like it'll go further


I shall oppose you on this one! Let's take a look at the goal of WWE: make money. Any deal they sign, they get that money. So why not have another brand earning revenue. Also, you have increased merchandise sales. I would imagine CM Punk is selling pretty good right now, and that's all WWE should care about.

Secondly, ECW can be used to build up stars. Without ECW, CM Punk may be stuck as a mid-carder or even jobbing on Raw or SD. Without ECW, you wouldn't have been exposed to Elijah Burke, Morrison may not have come back and gotten a job, Big Titty V would be living in a dumpster. Well the Titty V part doesn't sound that bad, but I stick by my point!

And finally, ECW may capture some old school ECW fans to watch wrestling again despite it not being the same product. I know of some hardcore ECW fans that just watch ECW because of the name and view it as a higher product than SD, so they are still pulling in some additional fans.


It would be great for them to have a hardcore title, but how many legitamate contenders are left? They fired a good bunch of them, and none of the younger stars have had any exposure to hardcore matches and fans won't buy them as being hardcore enough to really get them into the match.


*EDIT* Hey Slash, I found a download to Lesnar's fight if you want it.

http://rs173.rapidshare.com/files/88775278...snar_vs_mir.avi

*EDIT* Seems like it's pretty bad quality and the sound is a bit off. If I find a better one and it isn't over 500MB, then I'll try to upload it.

*EDIT* Found a much better one. www.megaupload.com/?d=0WXM894R

The thing is though that if someone can shoot lesnar and get him on his back he would be screwed.


Its hard to see how the punches land. I like that they base it on damage and stuff but i wouldn't want points for takedowns. I think that they give to much points for takedowns any ways. See guys can inflict more damage to guys
who take them down sometimes. Penn vs. GSP is an example. Takedowns shouldn't be worth as much when the person who took someone down is getting punished.
I don't know i might have started one with TNA again i have to check quick.

ECW fits the goal of the WWE. But its such a terrible product now that i don't see ppv revenues going up but rather going down.

LOL. But the thing is that people like CM Punk may leave the company because of their crap position in the WWE.


I agree. It would have been cool if they would have brought the title in. It should have been the Hardcore title instead of the ECW WHC title imo. But yeah they got rid of all the old school guys which sucks.

Gracias.

Well Lesnar at least recognized the submissions before they happened. He got out of the first, and saw the second one. Tried to power out of the second one, but kind of failed. I think his size and his strength could get him out of trouble a several times in his career, but he is still new and needs to avoid the situation altogether. A little more experience and he'll be good to go.


Well you get a point for takedown, and then if they do more damage they probably pick up points after the fact. So they could still tie it up if they really do the damage. I'm not really sure once again, too much judgement calls for a newbie like me to follow.


Nothing new. Have a good go at him.


Well they have been getting more involved with SD and their superstars, so if they start mixing their PPVs, it could even boost revenue. And the arenas always seem to sell out regardless of PPV buys, so they should still be able to cover their costs.


Well he is under a contract, but it isn't that easy. And like my little theory about people using TNA as a stepping stone, superstars may also use ECW as a stepping stone too. So whether they work under ECW or TNA, it would be the same thing. I mean there's not many options for Punk right now. He leaves to TNA and it's about the same situation. He leaves for ROH and nobody ever hears from him again.


Well have of the old school guys really weren't going to do much anymore. Old, used up, limited transferable skills. Might as well. Hardcore wrestling is essentially dead in professional wrestling altogether.


NP, enjoy the fight.


I hereby declare this thread to have the most thought put into it in the forum's history!

If he pratices takedown defense and gets good at it he'll be highly successful. I find the heavyweight division the least universal.

The thing is though is that judges don't see it that way.

I figure I'll put a statement out and see what he has to say.



True. Fact is, i hope we see more of Punk and Benjamin in the future.


Which is rather disappointing to me. You really can't go wrong with a hardcore match. I always thought they were fun to watch and you see a lot of crazy bumps during them.


Exactly. See what debating can do to a thread.

Give me a prediction, how many will Lesnar win out of his next 5 fights.


But they should, cuz Babaganoosh said so!


I put a statement out to that Alex dude. I counter with like 6 points and he just totally disregards all of mine. external rectal opening...


With how long Benjamin has been with WWE and the mini pushes he has gotten, I'm losing some hope in him. He's still a wonderfully talented athlete, but WWE seems to see him differently for some reason.


It was definitely more fun in ECW days because that was when they could really get creative. Even I guess back in Crash Holly's 24/7 days they were really fun to watch despite the title reigns being kind of worthless, but still great entertainment.


One of the few reasons I even come back here anymore. If this wasn't the only place I could see you and talk to you, I would probably only have like 1/3 of the activity I have here.

If he works on takedown and jujitsu i will say at least 4-5 fights. He knocked Mir on his ass a few times.


LOL. Well sadly they don't see it that way cas Babaganoosh said so.

Theres a lot of dodgers on this site.


Which really bothers me when no talented people get pushed ALL the time. Its a shame because Benjamin has done some awesome things in the ring.

Yeah. ECW was awesome. And the 24/7 thing had great matches. I remember Hardy vs. Hardy when Matt i think jumped on Jeff Hardy when he was in a trash can. It looked like he killed him at first.


I don't really go on many wrestling boards anymore. I go on other types of boards but this actually used to be a pretty decent board.

I really think if there wasn't that stand-up call, Lesnar probably would've won.


I guess that's why people will just never be as cool as me


*ignores comment*


I thought Shelton did a great job in his last MITB match and I thought he was going to get a push after that despite losing. I'm really puzzled by why they continue to punish him even after good matches.


I personally think Crash's adventure at like Funland or something that, was awesome. Chasing him through slides, getting in the ballpits, good times.



Yeah I normally go on I guess less formal boards. Like ones where I just chill out with some other members and not have to always talk wrestling. The majority of my posts at cena#1fan's forum are probably outside of wrestling.

I think he would have. I think if Mir didn't start to get that arm bar he would have won.


Benjamin was being punished? I must have missed why, i just thought the wwe was being stupid as usual.


Thats how it was last year around this time. You could talk about other stuff to once the original topic started to get stale. I've tried going to cena#1fan's forum, maybe i'll try again.

Well I think definitely the armbar was nothing like illegal or wrong with it, so I don't have a problem with that. It was just the point taken off without a warning and the stand-up that probably should've never occured. Lesnar was totally in control of the match at that point and Mir wasn't really close to being able to mount any type of offense.


I didn't really mean punished as in he did something wrong. I meant more like the punishment is the lack of a push and for whatever reason he was getting it.


Yeah I think I remembered seeing you for like...3 posts You should check it out, there's some other smart members over there.

The armbar was legal. Like you said though i had a problem with the ref deducting the point off without warning. If he did it a second time then that would have been fine but he shouldn't have stood them up.

Got it.


Yeah i have to re register though because i can't remember what my password was.


Totally just posted on Cenanumber1's site.

I'm hoping the ref wasn't betting on that fight and had Mir winning it


Don't you just use the same password as you do here? Makes things a lot simpler to remember.

And do you have any ideas for the faction we discussed about earlier?

I figured it out that i had just saved the password onto my computer. It was really quite simple once i realized thats what i did.

Yes, but it requires TNA (we're talking about TNA right?) to pick up a few old superstars. So pretty much i thought that ron killings, should feud with LAX. Heres my plan, TNA gets Konnan back so he can cut the promo's for LAX, Killings comes back with Senshi. Now Senshi will have dropped his Warrior thing and he'll go back to being Low Ki and he'll pick up his gimmick he has in the Indies (pretty much same thing with a few different changes). Anyways, they pick up a few guys and so does LAX, from there i really don't have it planned. They pretty much have a kickass feud and put all of TNA and WWE to shame. I know it sucks but really I've been out of TNA for a while and i still don't know who would fit with a Killings/Low Ki faction.

Haha, this could be a downer, I think we were talking about a possible faction that he could get involved in and the feud he would be in after he returned to WWE because we were talking about the speculation of whether or not he'd come back. Maybe I worded it weird, but ultimately that was what I was going for.

Alright i got it. I'll think about it