I am very reticent when it comes to starting new threads (this is only my second). However, I thought maybe it was a good idea to start a thread without any E/O, O/P, O/C, E/I/E/I/O speculations, detections, delusions or infusions. I am to the point that I really like communicating with the crew here, but, as a non-shipper who still has yet to see any unrequited love anywhere, things are too bogged down in the will they/won't they whirlwind.

What do you all think? Can we have a thread just for discussing the merits of the show (or lack thereof) without any shippiness thrown in?

I respectfully submit this thread. Admin, feel free to delete this if it is perceived as deadwood.

It would be nice to talk about the show without all the crap that is shipperness...lol...and this goes both and any ship...hopefully it will work...and I agree, if the Admin wants to close it or merge it, its ok...

Haha I dig!
Great idea tiredmom!
So what exactly are we supposed to discuss?

JenniDinorobot!!!!! For only the second time in my life a message board post has made me laugh out loud. Oh, excuse me, I mean LOL . . .

Belive me, there is much more to discuss. Except for right now--I'm going to bed

Well we can start by figuring out why the writer's decided to make Olivia so loco all of a sudden. Especially after establishing her as this strong-willed, independent character in the beginning. And I'm also interested in people's views about what has to change for the show to get it's season 6-esque spark back.

Hahah well Im only assuming thats a compliment....

I want to know more about this too. I mean obviously Olivia has changed, the writers have made it blantly obvious. I remember Hisgirl saying she thinks Olivia is going to have some form of mild depression or something because it runs in her family...
I'd really like to see how that could develop and another thing I'd like to see more of is Munch. He was always one of my favorites and it seems like he has suddenly dropped off the face of the planet or something. Where oh where has my Muncho gone?

We do need to get that spark back,cause most of these eppys arent entertaing, it could be due to the strike.

I wish they didn't take Olivia from being a strong smart cop and woman to this person who I wouldn't want to work with...she makes too many mistakes and she is going to get herself in trouble or worse...

Also, I wish that they would bring the banter back between the cast...it seems that they don't even like to be around each other anymore...

Hopefully it will work out for you but I doubt anyone will be able to have such a discussion unless you have an age limit and you are fine with the discussions being blane and lack of entertainment. Apart of the enjoyment I find in this board is reading different person's views on a certain scene or whatever it is the topic is on. But to-each-is-own.

Me too! I always loved that banter! I liked when the whole cast would all sit around and bounce ideas off, they dont seem to do that as much.

Yeah I miss the banter too. Season 1 was full of it, and it was like they all actually seemed to enjoy doing their jobs and being around each other. I remember Cassidy had a ball that they were always chucking around the place, and then there was Cragen's licorice. The show seems so serious these days, and I kind of missed the scenes when they were all relaxed. Even Munch has become serious now.

Yeah, bring back Elliot's lame one-liners before they run the credits.

Noone was as good at this (one-liners) as Lennie Briscoe...God Bless him...

I think Fin has been the one who has kept me laughing the most this season, Casey comes in second when she told Matt Braedon in Harm "Don't tempt me" of charging the Secretary of Defense. Munch always makes me laugh, he really had me going in Alternate while trying to keep things in order- I miss him too and I hope he does have some episodes coming up that better not be just a plain paragraph and then poof! he's gone. I understand Belzer's decision to become a recurring but whenever he appears, it's a joy.

See I could give you my two cents on why I think Olivia has gone Loco...but that involves Shippy talk.

So I'm gonna skip that and say I think that season 9 has gone down the crapper due to plot repeats, pointless guest stars, and forced twists. Let's just start with the added random scenes. Fight for example. The Ultimate fighting stuff...totally worthless. Had nothing to do with the actual story. In the Melissa Joan Heart Eppy: Rape scene at the beginning. Totally pointless. Had nothing to do with the story. There was one more, but I can't remember it now. BAH!

The only episode that has made a smooth beginning middle and end- yet still had a nice twist to it was Savant. I don't understand why we have to have random scenes. This show does not need Coco and ...gosh I forget the guys name, Ultimae fighter dude- to get people to watch it. Let's just have the main perps, suspects, and vicitms, and follow their story for the entire hour. Really is that so hard to do?

So that's my biggest beef with this season. Anybody else feeling this way?

Totally agree honey. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Nice idea for a topic. Only qualm though would be any episode discussion, as that kind of talk really belongs in their appropriate threads.

Anyway, theories on why Olivia is nuts...that's what we are discussing now, right? Well my personal opinion, I think Olivia's character has been going down the drain ever since Mariska returned from her maternity leave. The character of Olivia hasn't been as strong or as tough as she used to be (seasons 1-6/some season 7) and she's been making some pretty bad decisions. I always kind of wonder if that has to do with Mariska herself. She's a mother now, and surly that must reflect a little bit on how she wants to play Olivia. I know that "Olivia" isn't in a relationship (at least we haven't seen it) and she doesn't have any kids, but I'm sure Mariska must see the world a little bit differently now that she is a mother. Does that make sense? I'm not a parent, but I've been told many times that once you have a child, you see things much differently. I don't know, maybe that's just the people I've spoken with. I'm not blaming the decline of Olivia's character on Mariska, I was just wondering if she's ever said anything to TPTB about her character, maybe asking to make her "softer" or something.

What do you guys think?

Does she have much say in her character's development (or undevelopment)? I remember when she was discussing whether or not to return to the show, reading scripts for season 8 made her commit to it 100%. So the outline for her character was already there, and she agreed to it. So I think it's the writers we need to question. Are they doing this on purpose cause there's a bigger plan for Olivia, or are they doing it without noticing (which I don't think is possible if you have a team of writers).

Its not possible, even I notice things like that in my fics and Im the only one writing it. I think the writers are doing this on purpose because like I said before; Its blantly obvious.

If we had the writers from the earlier years I would say it was on purpose. But the writing for the past two years has been all over the place. So it doesn't seem they are that organized to plot something out for that long.
Olivia has changed since Mariska got pregnant. I think that threw the writers off course and they had to scramble to accommodate the situation. The writers had to show Elliot without Olivia, so they wanted to balance that with Olivia being without Elliot. The problem is they wanted to Olivia was just as tough as Elliot is. So they had her get angry and kick some butt. But that isn't the Olivia we wanted to see. So now they are stuck with her.
They can get out of the hole they have dug. The depression story line would fit. There is a family history on at last one side. I wouldn't be surprised if Serena suffered from depression as well. Other factors that fit are:
Loneliness - "I've been alone my whole life" sums that up pretty well
Lack of Social support - Olivia has no family and we haven't seem any friends
Recent stressful life experiences - she was almost killed by Gitano, she went undercover for the FBI, she found her brother who was accused of rape, she was suspended form her job, not name a few
Relationship problems - the breakup of her partnership with Elliot after 7 years
Early childhood trauma or abuse - we don't know enough to be sure, but Olivia hasn't painted a rosy picture of her life with Serena
The symptoms are:
Feelings of helplessness/hopelessness
Loss of interest in daily activities such as hobbies, social activities or sex
Change in appetite
Sleep changes
Loss of energy
Concentration problems - trouble making decisions focusing, or remembering things
Irritability
Some of these things we have seen affecting her. Some we have no reference for (eating, sleeping). The question will be which others show up.
Depression can be low-grade so that it doesn't interfere with your daily routine or job, but you don't enjoy life as much as you should. There can be periods of normal and even happy behavior. But they don't last. That would explain Olivia's behavior for the past two years.

She seemed genuinely happy when she was with Simon in her apartment. That was nice. Why can't she always be like that? I agree with most of what you said hisgirl, but I hope it's not so serious with the whole depression thing.

mrslee Posted Today, 12:22 AM
She seemed genuinely happy when she was with Simon in her apartment. That was nice. Why can't she always be like that? I agree with most of what you said hisgirl, but I hope it's not so serious with the whole depression thing.

Olivia's being happy when she is with Simon in her apartment fits with Dysthymia or low-grade depression. But then she let him drop out of her life and we haven't seen any relationship with him develop. She didn't seem happy about him in Screwed. Having a brother wasn't what she thought it would be.
The good thing about depression is that it is usually treatable, especially Dysthymia.

Sarah...get over it. I'm so tired of it. Really. How many times do I have to apologize?


Hisgirl-- Totally agree with the depression/Dysthymia, and I would like to see them deal with that. I think it would be interesting see her come over that and end with a big strong Olivia Bang.

And since I'm not aloud to talk about episodes or relationships...or really the writing because that requires talking about the episodes.......I really don't know what else to bring up. I understand the need to talk about something without Shipper talk. I often times want to do just that. Chat about an episode without the shipper talk. But unless you talk about the episodes what can you really discuss?

Yeah, Olivia has depression and we all want Munch. ......It's a given. I guess I'd like somebody to exlain what it is I can talk about on this thread? Because I can tell you a bunch of reasons why I think Olivia's character has changed since Mariska's marturnity leave, but most of them can't be said.

And that is why I do not think this thread will last but...that is just me.

Well, we can talk about why it seems more acceptable for some people to see Elliot's rage and how he doesn't appear to be doing much about it, but one lash out on Benson's part suddenly turns her into a different person. I mean, seriously, they see and hear the same disturbing things at work. Just because she's usually the calm, empathetic one, the good cop to his bad cop routine, it doesn't mean she can't be seen as someone who feels just as enraged, angry, and loses her control because of her emotions. It's just another side to her persona that we don't see often, but still exists. I think we all have it in ourselves to act in a way that other people consider as out of their perceived character of us.

why don't you guys think the thread will last...I don't mean to offend anyone by any means by saying this, but why can't we talk about SVU without any shipperness involved in the discussion...that can be saved for the shipper threads...if there is no shipper talk there is no fights...just a thought...

I kind of agree with you buddy, but sometimes, it's the shippery parts in episodes that we should argue about. That's why I love this board, cause you can say to a shipper that I think "this" and they'll say back "that" and there won't be any nastiness (in a PM or otherwise).

I don't know if you remember the thread, but it was on something about how shippers and non-shippers viewed Fault/Doubt/Weak (I can't remember exactly) and the discussion that ensued was so brilliant (and sometimes frustrating, when isn't it though?) that I loved chatting in there.

But I can understand why you want to keep the shippiness out, so don't mind me.

Back on topic: I really hope that this Olivia emotional issue isn't something that will be prolonged throughout the season, because I want the old Olivia back.

Call me crazy, but I just don't see Liv as you guys are. Is she lacking development? ABSOLUTELY! However, her actions in Blinded were that of a pissed off partner/friend.

Outside of that, EO have not been given much to do this season. The eppies have sucked major grade A jumbo eggs.

DW needs to get back to writing about the SVU and refrain from those stupid ambiguous interviews. It has been such a long time since an IIC has pissed me off this royally!


ANDREA

I think the banter has come back this season. I've seen it with Fin especially. I wish Cragen would lighten up a bit more.

And as far as Olivia's personality change. I think her actions are realistic if you take into consideration her time at SVU and her lifestyle. All we've seen her do is work. I don't know anyone who wouldn't be a little crazy with that kind of life. I think a real police officer would be suicidal after working eight years in SVU without a balanced life and no family. It's very depressing to watch. And I still think her emotional state might be her ticket out of SVU when the time comes for Mariska to move on.

Why will this thread die just because of a request to *not* discuss shipdom? That seem self-defeating and rather childish as if saying ... if we can't play by shipper rules, we won't play at all. ::sigh::

I also don't know what people mean by saying Olivia's gone nuts. Huh? Sure she hasn't been nearly as butch or tough as she was in early years, but that could have a lot to do with the decade that she's been with SVU. Think about it this way, if you saw what she saw every day for over a decade you'd either be a robot or emotional. She's gotten emotional. And personally speaking, I think that's better than a robot any day.

Also, what's with the sofa psychology of Dysthymia? Couldn't it just be that she was happy to find out she had a biological connection to someone and being a little sad when he left? I get a little sad when my sister and I part company and I see hear nearly every other weekend. That's a pretty normal reaction in my book.

But I do agree that it's unfair to judge Olivia by a different standard than we judge Elliot. If Elliot can get pissed off and angry, throwing things across the room as he did in Season 3, why is it hard for folks to understand that Olivia might get pissed off and angry too. Women don't normally use the physical world to vent their anger, it's more often taken internally, but that doesn't mean she can't externalize her feelings. It just means that when she does, she seems more "out there" than when Elliot does it nearly every day.

I do believe that the writing's changed over the eyars and some of those changes have to do with the actors themselves. But to say it's impossible for a team of writers to not keep a cohesive throughline is just silly. Given the number of writers and scheduling of scripts, it's entirely possible that the only people who have seen any throughline are the producers who have been incredibly busy with a little thing called prep work for a strike. That's not an excuse, but it does explain a few things. Remember that 6 episodes were shot before the cast and crew went on summer hiatus, then returned again in September. The order of shooting episodes is not necessarily the same as the order in which the network airs them. That could be another cause of the discontinuity. Unless any of you work on a TV show, saying something is "impossible" because you believe it to be so, just ain't right.

You have made some excellent points Katrose, especially with the last paragraph. People are willing to let Elliot of the hook, yet they are willing to tear Olivia apart for some of her actions.

I am not saying that it won't. I am saying I am not sure it will be able to carry on...if that makes any sense. There is only so much you can talk about until it comes down to the whys. Why is Olivia so angry? Why is Elliot so protective of his partner? Why does Olivia have insecurities about cases that envolve children? That sort of thing. Shipperness is only a fraction of the dicussions but they could be the answer to some of the whys. But because shipper talk is not accepted here, the topics are limited. They are not wide open and able to be interpreted as thuroughly as they could be or rather should be. But that is just me sweety. I am not saying this thread is a bad idea or that it is a waist of time. I am simply pointing out that it is limited. That's all. I did not mean to upset anyone. Sorry if I had.

Yep Yep!

In season 7 and 8 alone, how many suspects did El choke? He almost punched a suspect's wife in the face in Contagious, but Liv gets crucified for simply standing up for her partner? Okie dokie...


ANDREA

But why does shipperness have to be the answer to those questions?

Olivia is angry because she's see so much violence in an act that's should be about love and caring.
Elliot is so protective of his partner because, well, she's his partner.
Olivia is insecure??? I think a more accurate comment would be that Olivia is more sensitive to cases about children because she is a child of rape.

None of those answers has the least bit to do with whether or not there's a potential romantic relationship because ANY character.

I am not saying they have to be. I am saying they could be. That's my point. Everyone sees things differently. You may see Olivia as being upset because of the crimes but another person may think she is upset because of sexual tension. It may be a bad example but what I am simply trying to say is that without allowing different interpretations to take place, including shipper points of view, responses will not be more open or throughly analized. But this is only my opinion on the topic. I guess the shipper thread is also short sided and so I will back away slowly...

You didn't upset me...sorry if I implied that...you are correct that the discussion is limited....SVU has other topics to discuss other than who is shipping who...(I know bad English...but that is why I majored in Biology...lol)...

I think Olivia is very insecure about being a child of rape, and not knowing enough about her family history on her father's side. That insecurity might cause her to be overly sensitive in certain situations, not only the situations that involve children, but all rape victims. And the writers have made a point to show a lot of her insecurities over the last eight seasons.

She also is struggling with whether it is nurture or nature which makes a person who they are...

Your last sentence answers the question: shipper threads are limited in scope as well. So what's the problem with having a thread that discusses the stories without adding the ship angle?

KatRose Posted Today, 11:50 AM
I also don't know what people mean by saying Olivia's gone nuts. Huh? Sure she hasn't been nearly as butch or tough as she was in early years, but that could have a lot to do with the decade that she's been with SVU. Think about it this way, if you saw what she saw every day for over a decade you'd either be a robot or emotional. She's gotten emotional. And personally speaking, I think that's better than a robot any day.

Olivia has had problems with getting emotional since Payback. Cragen was thinking about having her leave the squad if she couldn't learn to be objective about the cases. She learned how to deal with the cases as a professional. She doesn't need to become a robot to do that. But she does need an outlet for all the stress her job creates. That is something that is lacking in the Olivia we get to see or hear about.
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Also, what's with the sofa psychology of Dysthymia? Couldn't it just be that she was happy to find out she had a biological connection to someone and being a little sad when he left? I get a little sad when my sister and I part company and I see hear nearly every other weekend. That's a pretty normal reaction in my book.

We are not talking about her being a little sad on occasion. We are talking about depression which is a very different thing. Everybody gets sad now and then. That's normal. But Olivia's behavior, especially since she got back from Oregon, has a number of the symptoms of depression. The last date we saw/hear about was back in 911. There was the speech she made in the car in Philadelphia about always having been alone. There's her sudden explosions of anger in Florida. There is decided lack of joy in her life.
Does this have to do with her job? Of course it does. Her job is stressful. But she isn't doing anything to alleviate that stress. We know that SVU detectives usually only stay 2-4 years in the unit. Elliot, Munch, Cragen, Fin and Olivia have all been there far longer than average. It's time for one of them to need help dealing with it.
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But I do agree that it's unfair to judge Olivia by a different standard than we judge Elliot. If Elliot can get pissed off and angry, throwing things across the room as he did in Season 3, why is it hard for folks to understand that Olivia might get pissed off and angry too. Women don't normally use the physical world to vent their anger, it's more often taken internally, but that doesn't mean she can't externalize her feelings. It just means that when she does, she seems more "out there" than when Elliot does it nearly every day.

Olivia's behavior is Florida is different from Elliot's anger issues. Elliot has the learned behavior of striking out physically when he is angry. But the what he does in interrogation is a different thing. Most of that is intended to intimidate the suspect. Elliot even asked Cragen once if he thought he was actually going to hit the suspect. Has he gone overboard on occasion? Yes, but always with the purpose of getting information out of the suspect.
When Olivia beat up the rape suspect in Florida, she wasn't trying to get anything out of the suspect. She was just angry and taking it out on him. Then she was unable to stop that anger and lashed out at both Cragen and Elliot. At that point , Cragen should have referred her to Psych Services the way he did to Elliot in Charisma. She clearly needed help.

Having been diagnosed with chronic depression when I was 18, I think I know the signs of depression better than most. I don't see Olivia in the throes of depression, I see a woman in her 40s that realizes her entire life has been about the violence and degradation of rape and sexual assault and is beginning to see that in her quest to give her mother - and by extension herself - some justice that she's left a lot of her life behind. That's not depression, that's reflection and can, hopefully, be cause for change.

I am so going to marry this post!


ANDREA

That topic is brought up a lot in not only psychology classes but Sociology as well. Nuture deals with society as well as parenting and of course nature deals with jeans. I think Olivia is constantly conflicted with this. Perhaps that is why she never had any children. Well that and the fact that her job pretty much sucks all of her personal time up and all of her relationships seem to end quickly.

I don't think Olivia's emotional state has to have a certain name. And I doubt we'll ever see her in a scene where she's diagnosed with 'chronic depression', but she is clearly not handling her emotions well at this point. And there are various emotional stress disorders that have similar symptoms. But I think there's a reason that the writers made a point of letting the viewers know that Olivia's father suffered from depression. And I don't think it's a stretch to say Olivia might be dealing with some form of depression. It does not have to be chronic.

This might be a little out there, but oh well, its my opinion.
I think Olivia is going through a mid-life crisis. i read that the average age range for a mid-life crisis is between 35 and 50. Olivia is definately in that range.

i think that major life events have happened to Olivia that have caused a period of psychological stress, (which is what happens when you go through a mid-life crisis.) And i think it all started with 1. Fault, with Olivia getting her neck cut. 2. Then She sees elliot enjoying his time with Beck. 3. Undercover must've been awful stressfull. 4. then theres alot of tension between her and elliot when she returns from undercover. 5. Then Olivia finds out about Simon...stresses her out more when she helps him. okayy some of these are major life events, but they can still have a huge impact on Olivia's life.

"The result of a mid-life crisis may be a desire to make significant changes in core aspects of day to day life or situation, such as in career, or romantic relationships."
The changes for olivia in the core aspects of day to day life is she is more sensitive/oversensitive. And its affecting her job by her being unprofessional by: stealing evidence, like she did in Informed; going over the edge a bit by beating the crap out of that guy in Florida; holding elliot after he got his head smashed into a window, (that could've made certain injuries alot worse), in Blinded; calling and telling on Casey to the Feds(BLinded). And i'm sure there are more, but i cant think of them right now.
And for the romantic relationships, (without being shippery) Olivia is just acting really emotional and protective toward others.

Most of Olivia's actions, from the episode Fault to now, can be explained through a mid-life crisis!

So what do ya'll think? Is it possible that Olivia is going through a mid-life crisis??

my source for the information on mid-life crisis is from Wikipedia.

Just to make this clear, Olivia is my favorite character!! and i'm not bashing her or anything, i'm jus saying what could possibly be happening to the character of Olivia Benson

I agree that is why I wrote it...I wanted to bring up a discussion topic...I know we had a "Nature vs. Nurture" thread, but that was a long, long time ago...and Olivia really does have a problem dealing with this because in her line of work in the SVU department, she is confronted with this all the time...Was I born bad? or Was I brought up to be bad? ...

Katrose, you're awesome man! Ok, back on topic.

The nature versus nurture debate was something we covered in criminological theories last semester and it was a brilliant topic. Olivia's a bit of an enigma when it comes to this because not only was she a product of rape (so, that's the nature side), but from her descriptions she didn't grow up in a particularly loving household (so, that's nuture side) either. And for her to come out on top and be a female cop helping thousands of victims is amazing. There's always conflict within Olivia (and it was probably most evident in that episode with the half-chinese, half-black guy who raped women like his father) and I hope she comes to peace with herself soon and realises that she's an amazing woman.

I am having so much fun reading this thread that I don't even have time to post. This is the thread of my dreams!!