So I am a big Law and Order fan (all 3 series), but I must admit that something has always bothered me about Det. Goren. In all of his interviews, he tricks the suspect into a confession. He essentially lies to them, confuses them, and then forces them to say what he wants them to say. While this tactic may sometimes be necessary, it does not seem that it should come into play EVERY time. Further, this makes me distrust the character, and believe him to take on more of an antagonist's role, as opposed to that of the protagonist, which he is supposed to be. Whenever I watch this part of CI episodes, I feel like I relate better to the person being interrigated, because I feel like they are being attacked by Det. Goren. Overall, I think that this is a character flaw, but one that the writers can fix.

I would love to hear other fans' opinions on this topic. I would also hope that an administrator could pass the comments of this thread to the writers.

WillofVA

Maybe they could combine this thread with Bobby thread.

I think we have to give up on the starting new threads argument.. it's obviously not working
dear lord will .. why would you want to change the very thing that makes Goren.. Goren? he's perfect as he is. I find no flaw.. and I don't think many loyal fans would either. and as far as the writers go.. why would they want to fix something that isn't broken?

*bug*

Yes i agree i think it should stay the way it is,because this is supposed to be the way acting should be

In the previous seasons ..i thought that too...he seemed manipulating and attacking on purpose all the suspects ,bad persons for the sake of the investigation ...and he was somewhat flat..but things changed a lot ..in the last three seasons...and he became a very complex and fully rounded..character. HE also became a victim in ''siren call'' and many of the characters were attacking him as well..the evil nicole wallace , captain ross , and even eames has ceased recently to be in his shadow . Step by step his world is falling apart ..and the ground on which he emerged in the limelight of profiling and nailing villains being the best detective in town ...has transformed into a murky hole ...absorbing his assets and testing his mental resistence , his strengh of character and most of all his beliefs . He is a hero if he manages to overcome these obstacles ,a modern one ! Don't you agree ?

I don't think he's like that at all, you ca only be confused if your not telling the truth etc. i think he uses what is needed to get the job done sometimes he is softer or just makes them face who they are and what the truth is, as with Nichole he shares part of his life with her, truthfully, "tit for tat" and as another poster has said as time has gone on his life has gone through so many changes his techniches have changed, and trust me i know some real NYPD and i'd take Goren in an interview room anyday,. Well for more reason then just catching the bad guys lol Take care......heart

Hi again, I totally agree, i think you captured the essence of Bobby Goren, something I would have said if i could have thought of articulating it so perfectly. thanks for putting it in perspective PS although I never thought he was flat, or mean, just extremely bright, intelligent, and had great insight, and used it as a detective's job is. and as I said in another post, I know a few, and come from a family of NYPD and believe me Goren is the one you would want in your interview room Take care ....heart

I look forward to the way Bobby tricks people and outsmarts them.

It makes me happy. =DDDD

I like his physcologic mind! His looks ain't hard on the eyes either!

I love Goren the way he is. Yes, he does have character flaws (as do we all) but that's what makes him so interesting and relatable to the audience. Personally i wouldn't count the way he treats people in interogation as a flaw (that's always been my favorite part of the show) because 95% of them deserve it. I really can't stand good old boy heroes that are perfect shining examples of humanity. I want my heroes to be flawed with issues to boot and on occasion be wrong. Goren i think is a very moral character, but he also doesn't like being challenged by other people and he let's his feelings get the best of him, which can (and has) cloud his judgement. He's a very human character, which is why i wouldn't change anything about him.

I love Goren's methods. But I always wondered about him continuing to talk to, and even question, people with their lawyer sitting there telling him to stop. Yet at other times when the lawyer walks in and tells them to leave, he and Eames get up and leave. My daughter (my math-wiz, logical thinker) said that if they leave its because its too early in the show for a confession! But I asked my sister about Goren continuing to talk to a suspect when the lawyer says stop. She is a retired sargeant with the Sheriff's dept. and spent quite a few years as a detetective (most of it in the juvenile division--lots of abuse cases). She said that actually it is legal. She said the lawyer has no control over what the detective says or does and can't make him stop talking. The lawyer is there to advise his/her client, but if the suspect talks (and confesses) against the lawyer's advise, its still legal. However, my sister said she wouldn't continue to talk to someone like that and doesn't know any detectives who would--but Goren can go on getting those confessions the way he always has.

maybe this thread should be merged with the 'bobby' thread and the 'det. G getting fat' thread. They all say basically the same thing...

WillofVA, I must first say that I have a biased look at it, as I will one day marry Det. Goren or VDO, whichever works. I will now continue.

I don't think he always tricks them into it, hee just persuades them to confess. Esentially, he's only using facts, so really, it's no biggie, to me, anyway. Besides, anyone who's ever seen any cop show knows that cops are allowed to lie, which isn't quite fair, I'd like to lie as well, No, Officer Spitzer, I actually did not call you a fat pig. My brother did. But, those who lie are punished, yes? Especially to fat pigs like Officer Spitzer.

Hey Hey Hey Easy on the det.g getting fat thing, haven't seen that thread yet, but he's still VDO and the weight thing is always controllable. He's still "got it" somethings come with age, but if you notice with each epi, the weight seems to be a little less. And what about his mind,how can you overlook that . If your looking for him to look like he did 20 years ago, do you?? Yeah that would be great but have you seen some of his recent publicity shots??? yum bye now heart peaceout

I have to agree with the "Love him just as he is..." side of the poll. His mind games and little quirks are his character. The little pauses he takes in an interogation, the suspect just has the NEED to fill them. Its not like he is physically attacking them. He is just very insightful and can read the perps expression and body language. Then, he ges in for the kill. The "Get in their face" parts, I LOVE that. Actually wish it way me, but I couldn't hold up to his scrutiny! I hope they do not change his character too much. It is what attracted me to his character and what keeps me watching the show!

i agree he os just fine the way he is, but with nicole you could see she got to him, his face gave it all away. i love the chemistry between those two

funny how goren "tricks them" into telling the truth though...

i don't think it's so much "tricking" suspects as it is using a particular line of questioning and way of making them flustered that inevitably brings out the truth. a lie is harder to maintain when you're flustered and confused...that's what goren does...flusters and confuses them until the truth comes out, as well as the motive

I don't know if it's just me but Goren's interrogation style is very reminiscent of Det Frank Pembleton from Homicide: Life on the Streets -- but perhaps it is simply that Vincent and Andre are both unusual and interesting actors with strikingly intelligent and unique personal styles towards their characters.

I see similarities and differences between the characters...both are intelligent, articulate, well read, have a history of Catholic education or indoctrination (Bobby was an altar boy, Frank was educated by Jesuit priests), and don't easily relate to their partners or their bosses (although Goren I think has the slight edge in getting along with others). But Goren has more of an emotionally detatched psychological approach to me while Pembleton gets impassioned or evangelical about what he is doing. With Goren it's usually more like mind games as if he's in a chess match or a battle of wits with most every suspect while with Pembleton he takes the mission of being a 'murder police', of 'speaking for the dead' and fulfilling the investigation of killings, which 'there is no higher [police] calling' so personally...the end of the Homicide episode 'For God And Country' (which is the second episode in the first H:LOTS mothership crossover 2-parter) kind of says a lot about the religiosity of Pembleton brings to his work (and how he's often at war with God over the idea that God can let murders take place).

Following on with this discussion I think it's interesting that the ultimate character tests for Pembleton and Goren are going to be very different. Pembleton's stroke probably was not anticipated any time early on in the writing of Homicide (or so I understand from various interviews with the show's writers producers and with Braugher)...it comes out of nowhere, blindsided everyone watching the show and we spent a rough season watching Frank fight his way back to greatness, basically having to struggle to relearn his calling.

Goren's potential for a descent into mental illness I am convinced was contemplated early in the first season of CI, all kinds of hints have been thrown at us about how the character will flirt with (but probably not tumble into) madness and self-destruction. Because you could see this one coming if you've been closely watching the show and the media hints and because I think Goren (and we the viewers) will be pushed right to the edge of a fall, well that makes for a very different but equally interesting character development arc. All of Season 6 throws some complicating grief onto Goren's potential for a descent into madness but I just don't think we're going all the way there and all the way back.

CI has not become a full fledged serial drama (it's still episodic) like H:LOTS was and thus I don't think we're going to see an infantalized Goren having to be confined to desk duty, having to relearn how to talk, to walk, to shoot his gun etc over multiple episodes. For better or for worse the challenge will probably take place in 45 minutes of episode time (maybe 90 minutes if it's a 2-part episode). I know that VDO is up for this challenge, but I'm seriously worried that either the script won't work or that possibly the director will bollocks this up.

Anyway I'll be interested to see how this plays out.

The Vault

I think this "flaw" (which I don't think is a flaw at all) is one of the things that makes Goren Goren. His whole thing is the psychology of the perps, what causes them to do these things and that's how he knows just what buttons to push and how to get what he wants from them in terms of a confession. He's not always harsh with them either. It depends on how "evil" for lack of a better word he thinks they are.

I suppose that with a long-running series, writers and actors have to ensure that they keep their characters real by allowing them to develop and to grow. You have to do that in order to keep long-term fans interested, too. But it can be a fine line to tread ... in the last couple of seasons of "The Dead Zone" they took away so many of the little idiosyncrasies of the main character Johnny Smith, that he has become (in my opinion) less interesting and considerably less believable.

Watching/reading some of the recent interviews with Vincent d'Onofrio, I got the distinct impression that he is very pleased that more of Bobby's personal life and emotions are going to be thoroughly delved into. I think he might have been getting bored with playing Goren, and maybe said to the writers - "Come on, gimme something to work with here!"

I admit that is complete speculation - just my interpretation of what I was looking at.

You are pretty much right on! VDO actually asked the writers for something to "chew on". In a recent interview on USA he said that this is the longest he has ever played a character, so he likes the evolution. I can imagine it would get boring for an actor like VDO who is always ready for the challenge.