Okay; I created this username only so I could vent my frustrations; Warning: I might now have all my facts straight, if that's the case, PLEASE correct me!!! Thanks so much! Note: I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE L&O:CI, and I will Marry Bobby Goren ... once I turn 18. (6 months!!!)

SO ... Eame's was a WITCH in the Season 7 premier, and her husband has been dead for HOW many years? Nine years? Who got her preggers in 2003?!?

And, I know, Bobby Goren is ALWAYS a head-case, but he's so AWESOME, all-knowing, wise, and HOTT!!! (But he's looking a bit unhealthy now, seriously, lay off the donuts, because Depression hurts, but you don't have to, CYMBALTA!!! (Ooh, a commercial in there, am I good or WHAT?!?)) Okay, but for serial: MY Bobby, please, I know your mommy passed on, and you found out you were a product of her rape, but you have ME to entertain, okay?

Thanks! Much Aloha,

Tuba Girl Faith

Eames was pregnant with her sister and brotherinlaws baby. They had to make sumthin up cause she was preggers in real life.
As for Bobby, I have read news accounts where he has also been ill in real life, exhaustion from working so hard. I think it became a problem around the time they added Logan's character to the series, to give him a rest. I don't thing they are portraying him as a 'worse' headcase this season, he is just reacting to the higherups calling him 'the headcase'. Remember, the dead cop's son told him they were saying this.

So do I...I don't think she was a "witch" and even if it nine or so years after her husband was killed, she can still be upset and still grieve for him...

she is a tough cop and for a woman to let her feelings show in the good-ol' boy world is a tough thing to do without hearing how the men have to take care of the emotional female partner...she needs to be tougher and stronger just to make it...

hmm.. somebody hasn't been tuning in on a regular basis..... but .. all the replies answer your questions about the baby and all... and I disagree about the witch comment too.. I think she reacted as anyone would in that situation.. her response to her partner re-opening her husbands case.. the fact that all these years she had some sort of closure knowing the killer was put away.. all to be in question now.. yeah.. I would be upset too.. she was in denial at first.. which is normal.. and then .. with her friend and partners guidance.. was able to accept.. I think it shows just how tight they are.. she trusts Goren above others when it comes down to it.
but I loved the Cymbalta comment.. hilarrious!!

*bug*

You really need to watch previous seasons on DVD and you will change your opinions.

If Brady was his father, I do not think that Bobby was a product of rape. His mother told him that his father was away "A LOT" and she emphasized that. He was "Uncle Mark" to Frank. A familiar person to them. I do think that he did beat or even raped her when she went away to recover from her "car accident", but Bobby was 4 then.

I don't think Bobby was a product of rape, his mother admitted to Bobby on her death bed that she had seen Brady more than once!

Don't start screaming inconsistencies, until you have watched each episode from each season at least 6 times.

LOL.. aint that the truth.

*bug*

lol bug, not that any of us have ever watched any episode that many times.

LOL- I'm geting to the point where once I hear the title, I know the episode- that took me at least 6 times each episode! But I have to say, I just got Season One on DVD- so I'll be watching again! DIEHARD! Season 2 is on its way.....thanks to Blockbuster!

Sorry, but by the time you turn 18 Goren will be married to me. LOVED the Cymbalta comment, btw! And just another example of how perfect Bobby and I are for each other - I've been taking it for a year now!

no, bobby was not the product of rape. his mother definitely had some sort of relationship with "Uncle MArk" but i think it stopped after the "car Accident" which is when he probably beat her.

Yeah, maybe because she didn't want to see him again!

The weight gain was presumably consciously made by VDO to play mobsters in the films 'Staten Island' and 'The Narrows' (actually in the latter film, the character is more of a gangster wannabe).

Others have set you straight on the fact that Frances Goren had an affair with the serial killer Mark Ford Brady but I'll set you straight on the fact that Goren has to entertain *all* of us (even if he's yours)



Consider the fact that perhaps Dr. Goren could have been the cause of Frances's car accident injuries just as easily as Mark Ford Brady the serial killer could have, especially if the doctor learned about the affair.

Food for thought

The Vault

Dr. Goren?

JRyan, my thought exactly! Get out of my head! LOL. Dr. Goren....while I'm sure he's smart enough to be a Dr., I think she meant Det......

So the weight gain is intentional? I thought that perhaps it could be (as he's done that in the past), but I also realize that he is getting up in age, and thought that it could be a middle age thing.

VDO looks good chunky or not, but he looks better not. He's all around nice to look at. Not that I look...too much. (I'm married)

No I mean Doctor...he made people call him that even though he was a professor (and Goren didn't care for that...too arrogant). And I mean the guy we always thought of as Bobby and Frank's father not Bobby himself.

It's in an early ep

The Vault (who will look up the exact ep after she finishes watching a Homicide episode she found online

Really, I don't recall ever being told what Bobby's dad did for a living. Can't wait to find out what epi that was in. I thought that was Croyden, in Person of Interest that made people call him Doctor even though he didn't have a PHD.

I believe you are right , jyran. croyden only reminded him of his father.. he was just using that as an analogy..at least I think..I mean.. could we have missed that?

*bug*

If the specific episode doesn't make sense, watch it again.

If after the thrid time it STILL doesn't make sense, move on to the next or previous episode.

If the series doesn't make any sense, you're watching the WRONG show.

And there is where Nicole is! Smack dab in the middle, making Bobby look like an idiot, undermining him as well and often as she does! Favorite eppy! Well, 1 of them.

I don't think so, He said I know the type, someone " like my dad" I don't think he was exactly like. I think it was more of He put himself before his family and neglected his family needs and didn't come home with his wife when she had cancer. He never said My dad made people call him doctor when he wasn't a doctor. Mr. Goren, left his kids with a sick mom who had schizophrenia to serve his own needs. Just like Croyden, and I am sure in Bobby's job he has met people who have called themselves doctors who weren't. In that episode his animosity toward croyden just grew and grew, Nicole knew that would happen, thats why she framed Croyden and set Bobby sites on him.

I'm with Eames on Croydon in the eppy, he just didn't listen!

who or what are you talking about. If I don't understand you do I just move on to the next post?

I am actually pretty sure Frances Goren was raped by Roy Scheider's character. he was probably a lot at the Gorens' house but if I remember correctly he didn't have a physical relationship to Bobby's mother until that day "when she stopped being happy". Maybe I'll have to re-watch End Game another time but I didn't like that eppi too much

The day she stopped being happy, Bobby was 4, she might have been raped, But what we are saying is Bobby wasn't the product of a Rape. Frances said she wasn't sure who Bobby's father was, so She was having sex with Mark Ford Brady Before and After Bobby's birth in my opinion.

That's exactly what I said before.

great minds think alike

wow! didn't know that. Thanks , can't wait to see ep

he wasn't a doctor.

ok, so far you and Krodgers have been quite correct on more than a few things, so next time i'll wait to see what you guys have to say first.

yeah.. vault.. watch that eppy again..really pay attention.. plus.. there was never any mention of Gorens father being a doctor in past episodes.. or in later ones.. I personaly don't really know what he did for a living.

*bug*

Hey bug think they would hire us as consitency advisors?

hey.. we could do that.. where do we get an application?

*bug*

What's up? Something I said?

i have actually watched one episode 5 times...yepp.....new one tonight!!! wooooottt!!!!

Thought I would debate the 9 yrs to be a surgeon in this thread. He went to school in Puerto Rico so maybe they become Surgeons faster there.

yea, maybe the Evelyn Woodsky School of surgery! lol

I buy that it can take 9 years to get through a Carribean medical school...oh and there's a reason why other doctors I know refer (semi-seriously)to schools like those as "Club Med School"...they have lower admissions standards (your test scores and grades can be lower) plus the distractions of being on an island in the Carribean...can you imagine trying to do homework with the beach and tropical drinks etc calling to you? Me either.

The Vault

Well. he's a VERY complicated guy. Maybe having a schizophrenic mom and a serial killer "father" might be the reason. Just the sight of him sitting on the kitchen floor in the season entrance is enough to make me wonder......should be a very intersting season...

possible serial killer father.

The idea that Papa Goren is most likely a scientist is sort of implied through a couple of episodes rather than said right out. Here's my argument and supporting evidence for my proposition:

CI Season 2 A Person Of Interest
At about 8:25 (by my DVD player's counter anyway) Goren interviews the doorman in Dr. Croyden's apartment building

Doorman: Dr Croyden's hit a dry spell lately, you know?
Goren: You call him a doctor but he's not a doctor. He's a scientist. A lab rat. But he makes you call him doctor.
Doorman: Yeah.
Goren: Yeah. I know his type. Goes off on people...
Doorman: That's him [rest of line deleted]

Pretty much anywhere in this episode lines spoken by Goren that surround the words 'I know his type' are a not so subtle verbal cue that Goren is projecting qualities he knows or perceives his father has onto Croyden. There were other things mentioned around this verbal cue that we can infer are qualities of Papa Goren's but I'll skip them and let you figure them out for yourself.

In the scientific or academic community, these days, it is often seen as a sign of arrogance when someone with a Ph.D. insists upon being called 'Doctor' especially in our more egalitarian American work world where people in workplaces call each other by their first or last names. The informality revolution began in American workplaces in the late 1960s and continues today. It's not wrong to call someone with a Ph.D. 'Doctor' out of respect for their educational achievements or if you don't yet know them well, but it's seen as a little anal to insist that you be called 'Doctor' especially in 2007.

The only people more wacky and basically wrong to insist upon being called 'Doctor' are people with the standard law degree a J.D. (or juris doctorate). You can call yourself, 'Counselor' or 'Esquire' if you you're a lawyer and want to use a title, but 'Doctor' is just plain unhinged sounding and overreaching and others in the bar association etc will laugh at you behind your back (I have been a party to conversations about this very topic and it's amazing how hard other attorneys land on the few souls who want to be called 'Doctor' and nothing else and all they have is a J.D.)

Further evidence that Papa Goren is probably a scientist (or would likely have a doctoral degree or be a well-educated man of some kind who would get off on having others call him 'Doctor' and not simply 'Mister') is that we learned in Season 6 that Bobby's older brother Frank is a scientist and oh how *happy* that makes Mama Frances (and by implication takes Bobby down a peg having been a soldier and a cop). Even though we learn that Papa Goren bailed out on his family and gambled and wasn't a nice guy and that Frank also has a gambling jones and a lack of committment to his family, something had to lead to Frances and Papa Goren hooking up in the first place and I believe that one thing that Papa simply had to do was the pursuit of if not the actual attainment of an advanced degree. The only way clever and free-spirited Frances would see herself settling down with someone would be if the guy had a better education than she did (presumably Frances has a B.A. or a B.S. at a mimimum although today you really need a master's level degree to land a job as a librarian) which implies to me that Mr. Goren had at least some graduate or professional schooling.

I don't think Frances would have married beneath her education as a librarian...degree holding women were pretty rare in Frances's day, they fought hard to get educated (watch a show like AMC's 'Mad Men' to see this principle in practice...all the college educated women marry at their own level or up in terms of both education and the status of their husband's job...and that show is explicitly set in 1960 when Frances Goren would have a young woman). Once they married, these women may have given up their careers in deference to their husbands and the cultural norms, but if they didn't quit college before graduation, that meant their degree was important to them personally and they weren't simple looking to get married (or pursuing the 'MRS degree' as it was called in Frances's day )

Even if you discount the later episodes, all you really need to do is analyze Nicole Wallace. If Nicole is really as worthy a nemesis as you all think she is, then she would have given great consideration to and expended great efforts towards finding a man with as many similarities to Papa Goren as possible to take Goren to as painful an emotional place as possible and to a place he wouldn't otherwise go. A mere family abandoning male probably wouldn't be enough to provoke him (although in Season 6 when his mother is slowly dying of cancer that similarity alone might bug him, but her impending death and the beginnings of Bobby's grief work put his emotions into a heightened state of sensitivity, but note that those are unusual circumstances). Nicole's victim needed to have as many similarities to Goren's father as possible, both personal and impersonal to have the maximum possible emotional and humiliation value (she's getting even with him because he's profiled *her* so well and if she can make him emotional to the point where he's not thinking logically in the first place, she can humiliate him). So she would have tried to match up the personality, the family background and also the educational and professional background.

Again 2 lines from 'A Person Of Interest' in support of my idea

CI Season 2 A Person Of Interest
At about 26:26 Goren is in Deakins's office with Deakins, Carver and Eames
Goren: And then there's Croyden. The perfect background. The perfect personality.

At about 27:09 Goren is confiding in Eames and implicating Nicole Wallace's part in the plot to make him feel badly about Croyden's death
Goren: She picked a man like my father.

So there ladies & gentlemen is my case. Personally I think Nicole Wallace is now not so interesting and quite defeatable because
1) she's still reacting emotionally to Goren's accurate logical profile of her and everything she does is colored by that and
2) she has to go to so much more work to get to Goren (in terms of research and planning) where Goren figures her out more intuitively (which means Goren can counter her moves faster than she can counter his so long as he knows it's Nicole involved)

That of course is an argument for some other thread...

The Vault (resting her case)

Okie-Dokie: I think I may have offended some people with my lack of knowledge, and I publicly apologize.

I think my questions were thoroughly answered, thanks!

I also think some, (not all,) of you are quite intimidating/rude. All is well, I pardon you.

Again, thanks for answering my questions, and I wish I had more time to sit in front of the tele.

Oh! Can I also state: L&O:CI started when I was 11, and I wasn't allowed to watch it, until I was in the 9th grade, and then, I didn't understand VDO, I thought he was weird, so I stuck to L&O and L&O:SVU.

And you, meanie-face, yeah, the one that told me not to talk about inconsistencies until I watch every episode 6 times: Unlike you, I have a life that involves something other than my tele. I go to school, I have a job, I have family and friends that take up my time, and if it takes you 6 times to memorize an episode, you're lame, it takes the average person 1-2 times.

Okay, Much Aloha to the rest of you!

Tuba Girl Faith

first of all... the one you called a *meanie face*is probably the most *un meanie face* on the board.. I know her well enough to say she was making fun of herself as was I when I agreed.. but you don't know her yet so I'll give you a pass on that one.. but believe me.. she did not mean that in the way you took it. hopefully when you get to know us.. meaning the ones that have been here for a while .. you'll understand what I mean.
and as far as you offending someone..lol.. what in the world gives you that idea.. you said nothing offensive.. and believe me.. we've been offended by the best.
I am a bit of a smart a**.. you'll realize that when you've been here a while.. if you choose to stay.. but I'm usually harmless.. although.. I can be harsh when it's called for..but I'm a bit protective..I'm much older than you.. so you can also attribute that to age and a hard life..lol..I do.
you are very young.. that;s cool .. we've got some terrific young people here who can take as much as we older ones can give..they are very smart.. as you seem to be.. and they know how to take us.. but the've been here longer than me.. so they are well educated.
so.. don't judge so harshley..get to know everyone.. I'll admitt.. there are a lot of poeple here that I don't know.. lots of new folks.. so.. it just takes a little patience.

*bug*

Thats implying alot, You don't have to have a degree to be a librian, and Nicole met Croyden long before she met Bobby. So I think its the running out on his wife that fit the bill there. But we can have our differences of opinions.

Shizenhausen. I feel like such a snot-faced-snot-head.

Meanie-Face: I'm sorry I called you a meanie-face. I took offense (easily done, for me) And the things I wrote were ... rude, to say the least. I'm a snot-face! It's hereditary, I got it from my biological mother. Blame her. (Okay, don't blame her, blame me, children do not inherit the sins of their parents. Nature vs. Nurture ... Nurture wins)

Meanie-Face's Friend: Thank you for being so forgiving. I like you, you remind me of ... well, I don't know who you remind me of. Someone nice. With cookies. And a rose garden. Did I jsut describe Mrs. Wilson from Dennis the Menice? Sorry, I called you Mrs. Wilson. Cookies?

Okie-Dokie, I think I've done enough damage for one day.

Lash Out

Much Aloha.
Tuba Girl Faith

I am not a meaning face, I was fan of the week! Yes I am 45 years old, when I was your age, that was ancient, over the hill, my kids are 18 and 25. My life is over, all I have to do is watch law and order over and over and over. sigh, were are my antidepressants. Think Vince and Carin let me come play with the Baby? My kids aren't rushing to give me any grandkids to play with. OOps should have quoted her, but Thanks Bugie, for defending me.

plus... Goren also made reference to his father while interrogating a video game producer on another eppy.. does that mean Gorens father made video games?

*bug*