Jordan just believes in what he is trying to accomplish. i don't think jordan is marked either. because like they said in the show it doesn't work that way. why would they need to mark jordan if they could have put it izzy and have her kill all p+'s. wouldn't that be easier than jordan removing promicin one by one. thats because the marked can't. and don't tell me that jordans vison of the future is a bad one. remember when he was talking to the marked tom about the world dying out and the marked in a city surrounded by hundred foot walls. but i think that what jordan says of "a generation of sacrifice" is needed to protect the future. Once the 4400 and the p+ complete there mission of saving the future there is no need of promicin. therefore the births of p-'s is mankind repopulating. and to all of you who say jordan is against p-'s your all wrong. he doesnt want to kill them he had the chance when he removed the promicin from the soliders trying to KILL him. he didn't tean around and kill them. he gave them a choice of keeping promicin but they didn't and he let them walk out of Promise City. Jordan is fighting to save the future.

This is an age old battle on this board, some members feel he is satan himself, others think he is the hero who saves the world. No one will ever agree, but I am glad to see another supporter of Jordan. I think he is a good guy, despite what others say. Sometimes, hard choices need to be made, but noone these days seems willing to make them anymore.

MarkedTom and MarkedRebecca seemed to think that a Marked Jordan would be able to remove promicin one by one, apparently due to his ability to remove promicin from the Extra Krispies. I don't know that him being Marked would elimiinate his ability to remove promicin.

No, I agree with you here Easy, I think at least in this point Curtis Peck got it wrong. Then again, if he got this wrong, how much else did he get wrong. It makes you wonder doesn't it?

What do you mean by "Curtis Peck got it wrong"?

Curtis said that the Marked couldn't inhabit anyone who was P+. At least that is has been said on the board a few times, I don't remember the entire conversation he had with Diana and Tom, but I am going with those who seem to remember it better than I do. If that were true, then how could they Mark Jordan and Jordan still have his ability to remove Promicin? So, if this is true, then Curtis Peck got that part wrong.

I see. Yeah, Curtis said "They don't have abilities. The procedure doesn't work that way." I guess that could mean that the procedure to become Marked doesn't give that person abilities, but it doesn't necessarily mean that if they inhabit a host tht already has an ability that the procedure to become Marked doesn't work. In that case, Curtis isn't really wrong and then probably the other things he said were correct as well.

A view I hadn't thought of, well thought out Elessar.

Awww shucks! You're making me blush. I had the advantage though, cuz I DVR'd all the episodes this season and saved them so I can go back and look any time I need. Last season I didn't save the episodes and then a topic would come up and I couldn't remember what happened exactly and I was so frustrated cuz I couldn't really say things with confidence. This year I got smarter. That's right, she can be taught. LOL

I definitely think "the procedure doesn't work that way" was about not giving someone abilities, plus we now know that the procedure to become Marked vs getting promicin are dramatically different. So it could have been a reference to that as well - that the actual procedures are very different things.

I totally agree with you. There is a very good and logical reason why Jordan cannot be Marked. Tom knows all about the Marked, including the fact that they regard Kyle as their worst enemy after Jordan. Tom also knows exactly what is involved in a cure. He told Jordan what to do to get cured of the Mark. Is it at all possible that Tom would not notice Jordan avoiding the cure? Is it at all possible that Tom would allow Kyle to remain with Jordan if he had the slightest doubt that Jordan was cured? The fact that Kyle was with Jordan speaks volumes-Jordan went for the cure. If he hadn't, Tom would have known and he would have taken Kyle away, by force if necessary. He wouldn't leave Kyle with Jordan if Jordan had not gone for the cure.

Whose future? Jordan wants real, living people to die to "protect" some potential [not real, by definition] "future," which is wrong.

When Kirk and Picard broke the Prime Directive, it was usually because they understood that real people in real situations must come before theoretical scenarios, no matter how well justified (the Prime Directive is a good thing, applying it blindly at the expense of real lives is not).

We have judges in the real world because laws must be interpreted in context, not followed blindly (this is why people have objections to mandatory sentencing).

but the question is what future do you wanna live in. a world with 1 city left surrounded by hundred foot walls. or a future where everyone is equal.

I do not believe those are the only possible choices, so I do not believe half the population has to be "sacrificed."

I agree with you Alex...

(ducking and waiting for stones to be thrown)

so what choices do you think they have. the show gave us 2 choices. they never lead us to believe there are more choices. they made us believe there are 2 futures thats why the 4400 were sent back. and its not like the 4400 are walking into this war blind. certian people know the out come of the war thats the whole point of this show. jordan seen what happenes when not everyone takes promicin. mankind is dying out. all jordan is trying to do is save mankind. plus hes not the only one to see this future.

Very true. I got beat up a lot for saying that the PFTF should have left present day humanity alone-people were all about how the future had to be saved. But now that saving the future has such a high price-half of present day humanity dying-people are changing their minds. Suddenly the PFTF don't look so terrific.

Who says there are only two choices? A group of people in the future said "This is messed up. We should abduct 4400 people, give them abilities, and put them back into the timeline, so they can fix our mess." Another group said "no, we like it this way."

That does not mean the 4400 are the only way to change history, and it does not mean killing 1/2 of the population would prevent a catastrophe. Which is ironic, because 3 billion deaths would be a catastrophe, in itself.

i dont know about you but this is what i got from the show so far: "pftf" want to save mankind from a future where there is 1 city in the world left, which is surrounded by hundred foot walls and the rest of the world is a wasteland. dead bodies everywhere. and in this city there is food and water but these people aren't letting anyone else in. and "the marked" are in control of this last city. and dont care about anyone outside those walls. so "pftf" take 4400 people from all over the word and time and give them the powers to change this future. we all saw when the nova group turned that part of desert into livable land. "pftf" believe that if everyone takes promicin that the p+ will return earth back to its natural state. thus rebuilding mankind. and "the marked" want to stop this because they rule the world. thus killing off mankind. but thats just my opinion, and of course 3 billion deaths would be a catastrophe, but whats worse 3 billion deaths or the extinction of mankind?

And yet again..I agree..just because they gave us 2 sides doesn't mean there are not other options. There are 2 sides to the war----if there was a 3rd or 4th faction--then there would be 3 or 4 options.

remember Kirk and the Kobyoshi Maru? It is suppose to be a no win situation..he won.....he had to cheat to do it, but he did it. He had the foresight to say ...they if I do A then this is gonna happen and if I do B this is and both are bad.....so I'm gonna do C..and it worked...


I think there are other options..like Shawn..he was a monkey wrench anyway, he wasn't suppose to be taken.

Two things:

1. I have never heard the PFTF say that they want a P+ world. That is Jordan's idea. The PFTF sent back 4400 people in the hopes that they would make subtle and not-so-subtle changes to prevent a catastrophe. We don't know what caused the catastrophe. We don't know when it happens. We don't know whether Promicin had anything to do with it. We don't even know the status of Promicin and abilities in the future world. Amy Berg has suggested that the PFTF may have abandoned the ripple effect idea in favor of the Promicin cult, but no character from the present or future has stated this. All we know is that Jordan saw a bad world, and he came up with an idea for preventing it. Seems like a really bad plan to me, and I see no reason why I must accept it as the best alternative. Just because Jordan has no faith in humanity (he's the one who says that P+'s and P-'s cannot co-exist), I do not have to agree.

2. No one has confirmed that the best we can hope for is killing off half the world, nor has anyone confirmed that killing those who cannot handle Promicin is better than killing those who can. Furthermore, there are still people in the future, so there is no reason to be talking about the extinction of mankind. Without any evidence to support the idea, I don't think anyone should be arguing that it is a question of half the world dying or extinction.

Marked Tom said that the elite found things the way they were. They didn't create the wasteland. Jordan didn't dispute this. This suggests to me that the catastrophe had nothing to do with any sort of P+ vs. P- battle.

I haven't changed my mind, Rock. I'd have to go back and look at what was siad but my recollection of the conversation was that people said if they were in the position of those in the future they might do the same thing. And with not knowing the catastrophe they were not ready to write them off as "evil." That I believe was what was said. I don't remember anyone saying they wanted half the population to die. The only time that has ever been suggested has been in comparison to either half dying or ALL dying. So I haven't really seen anyone change their mind. I also don't remember you getting "beat up" for it. There were just those that disagreed with you. AND there were those that did. I thought that the poll basically showed things about even between thinking TPFTF should have left us alone, TPFTF should have found another way, or TPFTF were right.

I agree bahmo. It could indeed be that the wasteland of the future is a result of P+s and P-s battling, but it could also be that they are fighting over what is left of the world, that the wasteland is the legacy of something that went down before them.

Here's a thought that just came to me: what if Kevin Burkoff is the proverbial "monkey wrench"? TPFTF took 4400 specific people and altered them to have abilities, however, thanks to Kev now anyone can take Promicin and either develop an ability or die. I wonder if TPFTF anticipated that. Perhaps that's the need for a 3rd faction because the first 2 didn't plan on an entire world of P+ people. They thought it was just the 4400 vs. the rest of the world.

Again, who says those are the only possible choices?

Besides, if humanity were extinct, no one would not have abducted 4400 people and given them abilities to change history.

Humanity was still there, just not happy with itself. Like it is today.

They had a two-hour premiere with people building a crazy device just to wake Kevin up.

That seems intentional to me.

Bahmo, it seems pretty clear to me that the "catastrohpe" is the P-Positives and the P-Negatives fighting among themselves. Tomthew said the elite found things the way they were-to begin with, I wouldn't take the word of a Marked on a bet. But more importantly, the Marked didn't just drop out of the sky. Presumably they are human beings and know as much history as the PFTF who created the 4400. Tomthew's statement sounded pretty self-serving to me.

The Marked seem pretty elitist to me. I think the elite in the city are probably P-Negatives, and they have found ways to control the P-Positives, perhaps using the substance that was used on Isabelle. In any case, none of the Marked have done anything to indicate they are fighting anything but promicin. Imroth controlled huge businesses-if the catastrophe was global warming, wouldn't we have seen some signs of his companies combating that problem? Considering that the producers have said the 4400 was inspired by 9/11, I think that they would want the catastrophe to be nothing more than people fighting and refusing to get along. What else was 9/11? It was not an inevitable catastrophe-it was brought about by fighting and refusal to accept other people. If that is the catastrophe that happened in the future, it would be a powerful message for the show to send-that if people don't stop fighting, humanity could really die out.

i agree with you. but i think that 2 p+ can't have a p+ baby thus sending the 4400 back to seattle so that they can reproduce with people with the SM but this is just MO. and if this is true i believe in what jordan is doing. restoring to world to its natural state and restarting mankid over.





i never said humanity was ectinct. what i said was manking is on the verg of extinction

If the 4400 had never been taken, humanity would still manage to develop abilities and figure out how to give these abilities to others, not to mention time travel. These are not things that an extinct species can do.

your right about humanity still managing to develop abilities, but what if its to late? what if thats the point of pftf? to give the world a head start at changing the future before its to late

I don't know. Promicin and abilities were not mentioned by the PFTF -- they simply said that there was a catastrophe. If the true problem was P+'s fighting P-'s (and the negatives somehow winning), I am pretty sure that this would be the first thing out of their mouths. Also, the original attempt to fix things through the ripple effect wouldn't make sense. The PFTF would have tried something to eliminate the Promicin-intolerant.

If the problem was P+ vs. P-, why not just send one person back to kill Burkhoff and then keep monitoring the timeline to eliminate any scientist who was on the path to discovering Promicin?

I think the Marked simply want things to go as they did before. So, they have no reason to prevent the catastrophe.

Ultimately, the problem I have is that I want to argue logically and rationally about circumstances that have been rendered somewhat illogical and irrational by the writers. They invented Promicin as a controlled substance half-way through the story. The ripple effect then became ethnic cleansing. Based on what we saw in Gone, the 4400 were originally about advancing mankind through scientific breakthroughs and the use of superpowers to clean up the world. It wasn't about Promicin per se. It was about what humanity could do with the aid of a few people with some special gifts. Now it is all about the P. As the story stands today, it does appear that the Marked are trying to stop Promicin (not simply trying to keep things from changing) and that the goal of the PFTF is a P+ world. However, to accept that idea, I have to ignore the first two seasons.

It's all very frustrating. Like you, I don't think Jordan is marked because I simply cannot believe that Tom wouldn't have talked to Shawn and Kyle about it. Then again, I cannot believe that a sociopathic killer who didn't have a childhood could suddenly develop a full sense of humanity after 3 months in jail and a few months as a fugitive tag-along. And yet, that is what the writers presented. I also can't believe that Jordan is a President Bush wannabe -- so quick to see things in black and white and then decide that there is only one way to fix things. And yet, Jordan tells us that he sees a bad future and, without even acknowledging or discussing any other possible alternative, tells us that the only way to avoid that bad future is by creating a horrific today. I can't believe that advanced humans from the future with all sorts of resources would resort to crashing a stolen SUV into a utility pole to kill someone, but that's what we saw. I can't believe that the PFTF who have gone out of their way to protect Tom and emphasize his importance to their plans (and let's not forget that they even abducted a beautiful woman just for him) would then take her away without a thought or explanation out of pure spite. And yet, that's what we saw. The PFTF, the people we are supposed to think of as the good guys, had a temper tantrum, took their ball, and went home.

Quite frankly, I keep getting lost in these discussions because I forget whether I am talking about what could happen based on the laws of the show's universe and what could happen based on the writers' repeated instances of violating their own laws. So, could Isabelle be back for Season 5? Of course not, unless they write her into the script. Can Promicin prevent the catastrophe? No, unless they write it into the script.

That was the plan, but they failed miserably.

I have said it before--special abilities are not going to save the world, people are.

As long as we keep waiting for Superman or mutants to save the day, we are going to continue circling the drain. Our greatest enemy is not "out there," in the form of global warming or other catastrophes, but "in here," in the form of stupidity, ignorance, intolerance, and so on, which is what keeps us from dealing with the external problems efficiently and effectively.

First off, I think that there is no way Jordan can be marked. The episode makes it clear that he has not yet turned all the way through the episode. I believe that the episode before the finale was supppose to be our cliff hanger, but now we know that all is well. I think Tom gave "The Marked" list to Jordan as a sort of proof that he is not Marked. If Jordan didn't force those people into treatment then Tom would know something was not right.

Second: Jordan never said that he wanted anyone to die. He makes that clear in the finale. He told people that if they wanted to join the movement, you're more than welcome to. "All you need is an ability." If not, fine, but "leave us alone." Jordan does not wish to force anyone to take the shot. I also believe, as has been previously mentioned, that Shawn is our third option. Unless, of course, he rejoines the movement. That said, however, if there really was a 4400 movement in Seattle ran by Jordan, I would be inclined to join it. No other option has provided such profound results. The Marked want power; Shawn has done nothing to create a better world; Jordan and Kyle, however, have managed to bring together a large number of people under the single cause of making the world a better place. Not only that, but they've succeded in small steps.

Right. The show originally was about mankind saving itself with the aid of a few people with some special abilities. It was still up to mankind as a whole, and the abilities were just to make things easier. Now, abilities themselves are supposedly the answer, but that just doesn't make sense. Even if the whole world gets abilities, someone is still going to get a board with a nail in it, and then others will grab bigger boards with bigger nails, and humans will keep doing what they do best -- kill each other.

That is one of the most-sense things I've heard! I hadn't thought about that before. And I think it's less about people getting abilities and more about everyone being equal. From the bits and pieces the writers have given us, it seems P+ and P- were divided and they fought, leaving the Elite (who have pretty much been confirmed to have been the Marked by Amy Berg, and who definately don't like promicin) inside their city, with everyone else (who I'm assuming to have promicin) to suffer. Even though it seems the whole world will become the Elite, I guess that's okay by promicin-fanatics' standards, because at least no one will be fighting, right?

We need a season 5 to see the sparks fly!

The next time you watch the show, do not turn the volume all the way down. Jordan very clearly stated, more than once, that the future belonged only to those who took promicin. The rest would have to be sacrificed for the good of humanity. Besides, he had no problem encouraging and instructing people to risk their lives and die for the "movement."

I represent Mr. Collier and Promise City. Please sign here indicating your desire to hand over all real and personal property you have. Now, here is your Promicin shot and your official PC robe. I'm sorry, did you just sneeze? Jordan bless you. Now, should you survive the shot, please remember that this is all about Jordan. Please be sure to fill out the PC comment cards to let us know where you think the next 60-foot picture of Jordan should go. I'm sorry, did you just ask how you can help save the world? Are you some sort of troublemaker? Look, just take the shot. Once everyone is P+ or dead, the world will be saved. No one actually has to do anything or change anything about themselves other than learn to bleed green. Please don't question the messiah again.

You know, it's one of the few things that makes sense, that the P-Positives are trying to increase their numbers, and that they wouldn't say anything bout it, seeing how half the people who take promicin will die. Ever see Stephen King's Storm of the Century? A demon comes to town, wreaking havoc. He promises to leave if the townspeople give him what he wants. What he wants is one of their children, but he does a lot of damage before telling them. He wants to soften them up so that giving up a child seems the lesser of two evils. I sense the same kind of dynamic here-the PFTF want the present day humans to make a huge sacrifice for them, but they can't just come out and say so. The years since the 4400 returned seem like a softening up process, so that when the true cost is revealed (everybody takes promicin even though half the people will die) it will seem more acceptable.

I know just what you mean. Tom is totally devoted to the welfare of his son. We've seen Tom fight for Kyle, break the law for Kyle, spend time with Kyle-for Jordan to be Marked, suddenly Tom has to go from being a devoted father who protects his son against all comers, to a man who couldn't be bothered to talk to Kyle and Shawn about how Jordan has been taken over by an evil alien entity. I could see the writers doing something like that. They already decreed that Jordan is not immune in any way to 4400 powers-the fact that he faced Graham, a kid who can take over your mind in a second, with no ill effects, is just one of those things. They forgot the promicin extraction device, and couldn't even put in a line from Shawn about how Jordan might be able to help Danny, so it looks like Shawn didn't do everything he could to save his brother. And they keep starting subplots that go nowhere, like Shawn's race for councilman. Then there's all the things you mentioned.

It is starting to feel like the 4400 is a giant Rorshach blot-there's no real cohesion to it, and we have discussions in which we try to make sense of it all, but as you say, we keep getting lost. As I mentioned on another post, I sadly reflect on what the 4400 could have been, if the producers had locked the actors into a firm contract for several years, and the writers had a clear idea of what they wanted to do. Amy Berg says that they know what they're doing, but that they would get bored with the ripple effect-the basic building block of time travel-says volumes about how cohesive the storyline really is.

I don't have anything to add to the rest of your post, but I meant to comment on the Graham story when it came up in other threads. I don't think that Graham's power was instantaneous. So, I think that Jordan would have at least a few seconds before he became Graham's follower. The principal was not affected at first, and Tom and Diana (or was it Garrity?) confronted Graham in the hallway without converting. It seems like Graham could turn up his amplifier when he wanted to (like he did with that soldier), but I imagine that he was a bit distracted by the thought of Jordan Collier being in his presence and didn't think to raise his god shield right away. So, I won't add that incident to my personal list of plot gaffes.

ok but were not talking about our world. i agree with you about our world, we can't wait for "mutants" to come save us we have to save ourselves. but were talking about the 4400 world. a world where people with special powers can save the world. people who can turn toxic woater back to its natural state. people who can turn desert into livable land. who knows what all the p+are gonna be able to do.

I think the point that you may be missing can be boiled down to two words: "Then what?"

Yes, someone can go purify a lake, but then what? Are we going to pollute it again or change who we are and how we live so that it doesn't happen again? Doesn't sound like much of a life for our water filter lady if she has to keep going back to the same lakes and rivers over and over.

Similarly, someone can create a garden in the Sahara, but then what? Has the climate been changed to allow for another season of growth, or does that 4400 have to keep at it? Did we deal with the issue of poverty and malnutrition in third world countries, or did we just get a week's worth of veggies to delay the inevitable?

The abilities can be used to jump start our progress, but they themselves are not the answer.

I believe they are a definate answer. Give every P+ his own area to look after, looking at their abilities. Ones area may be small, maybe just a hospital. someone Elses may be a whole forest. but If they can all kep their own area alright, nothings going to stop them from actually living on the side!

yes i agree its going to take change from people to keep every thing clean when it is changed, and they never really told us if the land from the nova attack would stay like that. i assume it did. but from the looks of it the people in promicin city are changing. it looked like they are trying to keep the water and the land clean, people are planting trees etc.


i just thought of something....totally off the subject......didnt kenvin train his body to produce promicin, not just 1 injection. but over a period of time. so what if with the compatibly test people who will die with 1 pure dose of promicin try and teach their bodies to produce promicin.

Training their bodies eh?

please do not forget Kevin's 'version' of promicin was an incomplete, imperfect and impure one. It was synthetic, and his body learnt to replicate it. Because of one of those same shots, Diana was immune to Danny. I hope you see that the point I am making is that the promicin in his body still is imperfect, but good enough to sustain an ability. I hope I don't hve to remember that his regeneration sometimes failed to kick in immediately? Technicly bot he and Diana could be labeled P neutral, but definately NOT P+!!!

but thats what im trying to say. lets say someone takes the test and it says they will die, what about the synthetic verson. couldnt these people take the synthetic verion instead and learn to sustain an ability? this way not everyone would die

It's on my list, Bahmo. Jordan didn't know how Graham's power worked, but he wasn't in the least concerned that it would affect him before he could take Graham's ability. Now that is a strange attitude for a man who is completely vulnerable to promicin abilities, but so the writers decreed, so we're supposed to accept it.

I totally agree, Bahmo. I've been saying this for months, and April said it best of all-Promicin does not change who a person is. Making everybody P-Positive is not going to avert a catastrophe if the problem was caused by people fighting and refusing to get along. I would like to see Jordan get a good loud wakeup call and realize how wrong-headed his movement is. Then I'd like to see him working with Shawn and Tom to fight off the PFTF and get present day humanity back on track without depending on promicin to change the world.

LOL I my ----see that is why I hate the whole P+ thing.

I agree with you here also. Look at all the "adopt a road" things. someone goes and cleans it up,and next week they have to do it again, because as people drive by and read "This portion of the road adopted by The Kiwanis" they throw out their starbucks coffee cup.

That is one example. You see people everyday..."O I am a vegan it's better for world hunger because it takes less acreage to feed people with soybeans than with cows" OK why are you wearing leather shoes? Those cows donate their skin to you?

We live in a McStarbucks throw away society,where we can get our Low-fat, no-foam, soy, extra shot espresso, caramel latte and drive 5 miles to the Mall to get a new pair of leather shoes in our 20 gallon gas tank SUV.........the world will not change or get better until we change on the inside.....

Hilarious, I must admit.



That's why he has Kyle to keep his big head from swelling.