USA Network Forums > More Thoughts on Saved-SPOILERS

Ruralstar

Aug 30 2005, 12:04 AM

Fair warning-it's looonnnnggggg

First Impressions: This episode was jam packed with answers and questions for our intrepid John Smith. Everything he touched brought a new twist and the temporary alliance with Greg Stillson was a definite highlight. Stillson is one of the nastiest characters to grace the airwaves in a long time. Perverse, brilliant, vulnerable, he is a man controlled by the very things he seeks, power and approval.

Teaser: “Faster your seatbelt, I think hell is about to freeze over.” I couldn’t wait for the credits to finish so I could find out how on earth Stillson wound up asking John for help. Did anyone else really listen to what Purdy was preaching about over the radio in the car? One man making a difference? A man of only a few decades? There was a bit more but it was hard to hear. I know he was referring to a prophet, possibly the later mentioned Daniel but there is also the double meaning of John himself: a young man alone and making a difference.

Opening scene: The human side of Stillson, well that was hard to swallow. Have another drink buddy and sit down for a while!

At the hotel Bruce looked suitably dubious and delivered another of several great one-liners of the evening: “Do I look like Tiger Woods?” *snorts* Uh no, you look like John’s trusted sidekick. Interesting that John was still in the vision when he told Bruce that Stillson was at the hotel with a woman. A bit of a twist on how the information is usually presented.

I love how they surprised Purdy. John enjoys baiting his former guardian. He certainly got more than he bargained for this time. Like John’s slight shake of the head when Purdy says, “God continues to bestow his blessings,” In regards to the Faith Heritage Network. John may not know all the ins and outs of Purdy’s funding but he refuses to attribute it to anything more than the most base of sources.

Here are the first hints of a ‘changed’ Stillson and the reasons for that change. Neither Bruce nor John buy the reasoning. Interesting how Purdy continue to plow ahead with the façade that all is right with the world.

Creepy Janus lurking outside the hotel dining room! Way to go Bruce for picking up on Purdy’s nervousness. Though to be fair, I don’t think Purdy is as cold as Bruce characterized. He seems to be a man caught in circumstance. If he’s smart he’ll use the resources Janus has given him and build a power base strong enough so that he can’t just be shut down and disappeared without notice. Remains to be seen.

The visions were coming fast and furious in this episode. An image of the smarmy Stillson having an earnest, vulnerable moment with Miranda would unsettle almost anyone!

“Even a blind squirrel finds the nut sometimes” *snickers*

After James’ death and Janus’ insertion into Greg’s life I had to feel a little sorry for the guy. As horrid as he is, Greg is also a victim. He truly has traded masters and just as James controlled whom he saw, Janus ends up doing the same. I think Greg has really fallen for Miranda, much as he fell for the young woman James directed towards the abortion clinic in the flashback from Broken Circle. Greg actually has a lot of guilt on his soul too and it’s turned him into quite the lush. Maybe he wouldn’t have needed so much rest and Dramamine on that boat if he hadn’t been so pickled.

The whole thing with the Coast Guard, eh I have my doubts. I get the impression that this hotel is not exactly next door to Cleaves Mills. Walt’s got a lot of pull for a country Sheriff from possibly a different county. “I hope you know what the hell you’re doing John!” A bit of nervousness there I think.

The confrontation: this scene alone was worth the price of admission. John and Greg are two classically opposed powers of good and evil. I loved the surprise and John’s overt resistance. He’s come up against Greg before and lost, most recently in Vanguard. He keeps pushing forward however. Still in the dark at this juncture, he accuses Greg of knowing about Rachel and causing Rebecca’s pain and indirectly Alex’s death. It’s great to see the character misguided and then later redirected to the reality. Speaking of, a lot of lying from dear John in this episode as he tried to understand the tangled web of Greg and Miranda’s affair.

IMO Greg first started to actually believe in John’s abilities at the end of Broken Circle. He confronted his father right after John told him James killed Rachel. He did not question it, perhaps because deep down he suspected it. But there was a look of sadness and fear on his face. Fear repeated in Vanguard when upon meeting Alex he asks if John is anywhere around the lab. His coming to John for help in finding Miranda is confirmation and the line about swallowing pride extremely telling. John is ‘the crippled freak’ and now Greg has nowhere else to turn. Delicious irony.

John’s assertion that he and Greg are different is very important. We’ve seen Future John, at least the man that will exist should Armageddon come to pass. FJ is very similar to Greg. He will do or say anything to direct events in his favor. John could be him and Greg’s statement that he can’t walk away from an innocent girl is a nice reminder that FJ is not a certainty.

When Greg offered his hand I actually hoped John wouldn’t take it. His obsession with the Apocalypse is too powerful to ignore though. The ‘rolling back’ of the destruction vision was a nice little twist. The implication at this point is that if Miranda stays gone then Greg will disintegrate into a miserable lush and never achieve the White House. I don’t think Janus would have allowed that to happen. He obviously has something to gain by promoting Greg. John’s final warning “I find out you were involved in this and you will go down.” Is fairly weak after his ‘deal’ in Vanguard. Without the knowledge that Greg killed his father John has nothing to hold over Greg. By the end of the episode the line has teeth. Not sure where it might have been inserted but it just kind of hangs there at the end of this scene.

John: “Stillson is the devil.” Yes and this is the first time John or anyone else has referred to Greg in that fashion.

John: “How long have you been afraid of water?”
Greg: “You really are creepy, you know that?”

*snorts* Love it!

More great confrontation at the docks. I thought John’s “What’s wrong with you?” was an interesting question. What’s wrong because Greg did not tell the coast guard everything when it came to the disappearance of his lover? What’s wrong that he’s careless enough to get drunk and possibly forget such details? What’s wrong that he is such a controlling creep when it comes to women and worse that he thinks he can lie to John about it? We learned a lot about Greg’s softer side in this episode and just how scared he is to show that side or even experience it in private. Maybe he isn’t really thinking as Janus later implies. More and more Greg is emerging as a pawn in a much larger game.

Miranda Ellis reminds me of a character in a Julia Roberts filmed entitled “Sleeping With the Enemy” Including the fake drowning and the scene at the bus terminal. Nice bit of sleuthing by John in the apartment and again the lies as he learns just enough to know he needs to learn more.

Seems as a good a place as any to note my disappointed that the Tylenol shots in Vanguard and Babble On appear to be little more than product placement (nods to the USA posters who said as much) I was really hoping for a physical response to all of the Armageddon references.

John: “You’re a politician, make something up.” Isn’t that the truth!

So dear old Senator Ellis is flat broke hmmm? Talk about ripe pickings. I was not surprised to see Janus lurking in the shadows after John and Greg left. Shades of Jackie and JFK in the matching of Miranda and Greg as well. Subtle foreshadowing of the reporter’s Camelot remark at the end of the episode and a connection to Greg’s guess that Miranda took a Kennedy to her Prom. And here I thought arranged marriages were passé.

Telling Greg that Miranda was dead was a huge gamble and a bad one for John. Again his threats have no teeth. He should have known Greg would find out otherwise and in short order. For all his efforts John is just an ordinary guy. Janus and Co. know their ‘craft’ It did not seem plausible to me that John had any real hope of finding and then keeping Miranda safe if she stayed in the area. Greg already hated John, he hates him more because of the lie. Greg’s grief stricken look implies sincerity in his feelings for Miranda so that lie is all the more cutting because for a while he really thinks his lover is dead.

John and Miranda: Okay I really hope she was just nervous and not pregnant. A Greg Jr. is not a comforting thought.

Miranda: “Greg’s John Smith?” That didn’t go over very well!

Interesting how people seem to implicitly trust John, must be that everyman expression he usually wears. Miranda reaches out immediately and we get the biggest piece of the night: Greg murdered daddy and now we know how wide the circle has gotten. Greg, Janus, Miranda, John and Bruce by the end of the story. Finally John has a kind of leverage but things could spiral very quickly out of control.

A lot of biblical references in this episode. Greg murmuring about the devil that betrayed him and being tormented forever and forever. Guilt is eating him alive and causing a fundamental weakness that Janus will have to guard against if he ever wants his golden boy in the oval office.

Miranda: “I can tell that you’ve lost someone.” Oh, and how can she tell that? I’m not overly enthused by the veiled attraction Miranda has for John. I hope it’s just the ‘knight in shining armor’ that has her ogling, it’s not like John needs to compete with Greg in yet another venue!

LOL, love them checking into the hotel under the name of Smith. How many clerks would believe that’s your real name? Then there is the convenient fire and remodeling and the missing bible. Nice little stumbling blocks.

Janus and Greg: Gods you want to scream ‘Get a clue!” to the hapless Stillson. He is genuinely surprised at Miranda’s betrayal. He is stumbling badly when trying to explain his mistake. Then there is the infamous Kennedy reference of Chappaquitick (sp).

Ouch poor John with the Tazer!

The press conference: It was great fun watching everyone watch one another. John was sure Miranda was dead and Stillson presenting her to the crowd was not the first surprise in store. John is horrified by the part he played in Miranda’s ‘capture’. He knows he messed up and what’s worse, a woman is again in the unenviable position of trying to shield him. Miranda has to go along or Janus will kill John. I don’t think it would be that easy to make him disappear but she can’t be sure. So Miranda like Rebecca is following the only course available to her. Rebecca did have a choice intellectually but she was manipulated in such a way as to be just as helpless as Miranda. Rebecca believed Greg murdered Rachel and that John would prevent her from exacting revenge and possibly get hurt in the process. Poor Miranda knows what a nut she’s marrying but John will definitely suffer if she does go ahead. “She did it to protect me.” Talk about your guilty conscience!

Armageddon is back just as if John never did a thing. The only difference is the knowledge that Greg is a murderer.

The final scene: A great twist on John’s visions. Janus is a believer or he would never have brought the bible to his house. Though I have to wonder how he got past all the bells and whistles… Anyway, speaking and reading the bible verse to John was a great way to ‘meet’. I know little of the bible though I was pleased at the reference to Daniel which harkens back to s2 “Valley of Shadows”. It does seem that Janus is extending an invitation to John to join Stillson at the top. Though I’m not sure if the third point of that triad is Purdy or Janus himself. Either way it’s not a wise move for John but it does give him an idea of the power and possibly the madness he is dealing with.

All and all I thought this was a great way to end the season. Not quite as troubling as John lying on his kitchen floor fortunately. Lots of new information and unanswered questions for John and the audience. I keep hoping USA will reconsider and give us new episodes in January. The Xmas episode is bound to be a stand-alone and I know that Alex will be back for it. Not a pairing I’m particularly interested in.

ireactions

Aug 30 2005, 12:16 AM

I'm not sure Johnny's security system is still in place. Especially after "Still Life," where someone could apparently deposit a package right in front of his door, something that wasn't possible in the past without Johnny buzzing someone in.

Regarding the episode -- I'm going to withhold judgement. I really liked the episode, but the story is incomplete; we don't know how Johnny's going to respond to Janus' offer or what he's going to do about Miranda. And I'm not sure if I really believe that the show's going to confront these issues. I withheld judgement on "Tipping Point," waiting to see how Johnny's medical problems would be dealt with, and they were wholly ignored. There was also the cliffhanger of the second season; Johnny was presented with a future magazine cover questioning if he would destroy the world, and the subsequent episode the next season went in a completely different direction that had nothing to do with the cliffhanger.

Will Johnny respond to Janus? Will he seek a way to win Miranda's freedom? Will he confront Stillson? Or will the next episode be Johnny confronting a deranged psychopath Santa Claus with Miranda, Janus, and Stillson being on the backburner until the next myth-arc episode? I dunno. I don't have a tremendous amount of faith in the creators, nor am I willing to condemn them for what I haven't seen.

I am waiting. But hey! At least we now have a rather good idea of why Johnny might destroy the world. I like that.

- Ibrahim Ng

DenverDZ

Aug 30 2005, 06:42 AM

"Did anyone else really listen to what Purdy was preaching about over the radio in the car? One man making a difference"

Yes, definitely, the words could have described John as well as JC. I love how the writers hide these little goodies in some episodes. It's made me pay attention to what's in the background.

"Ouch poor John with the Tazer!"

yummy!

"So dear old Senator Ellis is flat broke hmmm? Talk about ripe pickings. I was not surprised to see Janus lurking in the shadows after John and Greg left>

I was a little confused about Ellis's insisting on Miranda's marriage to "give them their dignity back". He's flat broke now, but he's willing to wait for Stillson to garner more power to change investment and mining regs? That all takes time, and the guy needs money now. I imagine he's getting all the money from Janus, because Stillson doesn't have any except from contributions, IMO.

>Shades of Jackie and JFK ...reporter’s Camelot remark at the end of the episode and a connection to Greg’s guess that Miranda took a Kennedy to her Prom. >

They *really* wanted us to make that connection. What I thought of was Princess Diana, especially with John's comment that she liked animals more than she did people, something that was always said about Diana.

Loved how Purdy left Johnny with the tab!

Joi

Aug 30 2005, 07:53 AM

"It does seem that Janus is extending an invitation to John to join Stillson at the top. Though I’m not sure if the third point of that triad is Purdy or Janus himself. ."

Considering how we've discovered Stillson is more just a puppet, and Johnny would also be used, I think the third point would be Purdy. I think Janus sees himself and his organization as above that--in a godlike position.

Ruralstar

Aug 30 2005, 08:10 AM

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I'm not sure Johnny's security system is still in place. Especially after "Still Life," where someone could apparently deposit a package right in front of his door, something that wasn't possible in the past without Johnny buzzing someone in.

Well John did note way back in Misbegotten I believe that each new lock kept him in as well as kept people out. Maybe he feels confident enough now to shed some of that security or perhaps the events of Total Awareness convinced him that having all those cameras and gadgets left him vulnerable to less conventional intrusions. ie: visual or audio as opposed to someone literally breaking in as Penny did.

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Regarding the episode -- I'm going to withhold judgement. I really liked the episode, but the story is incomplete;

Very true. I am still chafing about the whole headache thing.

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Will Johnny respond to Janus? Will he seek a way to win Miranda's freedom? Will he confront Stillson? Or will the next episode be Johnny confronting a deranged psychopath Santa Claus with Miranda, Janus, and Stillson being on the backburner until the next myth-arc episode?

Ho! Ho! Ho! great image!

Ruralstar

Aug 30 2005, 08:21 AM

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"Ouch poor John with the Tazer!"

yummy!

*snickers* Nice to be understood

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I was a little confused about Ellis's insisting on Miranda's marriage to "give them their dignity back". He's flat broke now, but he's willing to wait for Stillson to garner more power to change investment and mining regs? That all takes time, and the guy needs money now. I imagine he's getting all the money from Janus, because Stillson doesn't have any except from contributions, IMO.

I think the Senator's dignity comment was meant just as it sounded, dignity and not money. He's obviously broke and he is a senior senator so he knows how the system works. I think he is just as concerned with appearance as cash flow. As for Janus' bankroll, oh yeah I think you're right on target there. Senator Ellis is in his very crowded back pocket.

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They *really* wanted us to make that connection. What I thought of was Princess Diana, especially with John's comment that she liked animals more than she did people, something that was always said about Diana.

Oh I had forgotten about Diana! Talk about a match made in Hell

Quote:

Loved how Purdy left Johnny with the tab!

Classic!

Ruralstar

Aug 30 2005, 08:23 AM

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Considering how we've discovered Stillson is more just a puppet, and Johnny would also be used, I think the third point would be Purdy. I think Janus sees himself and his organization as above that--in a godlike position.

Good point. I'm very curious to know where Janus is getting his funding and what his ultimate purpose really is. The guy must have a weakness. He is smart enough to manipulate a first 'meeting' with John that does not involve physical contact. One touch and the whole mess might unravel...

ireactions

Aug 30 2005, 08:59 AM

Does anyone think that the show's direction is going to change in the wake of Miranda sacrificing her life for Johnny and Janus offering that Johnny form a triumvirate with Stillson and Purdy? Do you think it'll be addressed in the following episode? Or do you think it'll just sit, waiting to be brought up again, the way Armageddon waited after the first season cliffhanger?

I find it interesting... it's only after two seasons did we finally get a semi-explanation about the magazine cover at the end of the second year. Maybe we'll get an explanation for Johnny's medical condition at the end of the fifth season! :-P

- Ibrahim Ng

Ruralstar

Aug 30 2005, 10:15 AM

It's possible that s5 will take on some of the darkness of s3. I think John has a tremendous amount of guilt over his part in Miranda's fate. He does not handle guilt very well so this could be a set up for a possible return of FJ or the first manifestations of him in Present John.

My guess is that the headache issue will never be resolved. I really thought it would be with the scenes in Vanguard and Babble On. *grins* Mr. Writer I bet you wish you had never started that part of the arc!

brattytxn

Aug 30 2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Perverse, brilliant, vulnerable, he is a man controlled by the very things he seeks, power and approval.

I think Greg's ego is still at work because of how he wanted to keep his drinking, phobias, and working with Johnny Smith quiet. Greg truly seems a tormented man. I do believe that the true him was revealed to Miranda. What struck me is his mention of the 12 step program. Step 1: admit your an alcoholic. He went on to reveal the source of his pain. I wonder what Miranda would've done if she'd known that Greg killed his father more in a moment of temporary insanity and violent, pent up rage. That last line too about being deceived by the devil. I sure felt sorry for the guy. Miranda may be the one element he needs in his life to break free of all of them. The biggest thing he needs to do is tell the truth and put away his pride. He also needs to mean what he says about putting Miranda first.

I'm wondering what Greg knows about Miranda coming back? Does he know about the blackmail Janus put on her? Or at least suspects? Or really cares just as long as she's back. He uttered "You and me forever" twice. If he loves her and turns...well maybe...but otherwise...<shudder>. I just don't see how this is gonna end well for Miranda.

brattytxn

Aug 30 2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

was a little confused about Ellis's insisting on Miranda's marriage to "give them their dignity back". He's flat broke now, but he's willing to wait for Stillson to garner more power to change investment and mining regs? That all takes time, and the guy needs money now. I imagine he's getting all the money from Janus, because Stillson doesn't have any except from contributions, IMO

I was wondering about the money too. I think Harlan had to deliver "the goods" first and that was Miranda. Gotta have a "queen" for Camelot. The press was eating it up.

Jason2006

Aug 30 2005, 12:11 PM

"I really liked the episode, but the story is incomplete"

Yes, that's called a "cliffhanger".

"Regarding the episode -- I'm going to withhold judgement."

Why? You just said you liked it? Will the way the cliffhanger ending is resolved make this episode more or less than what it was? No, it will still be an awesome episode on its own.

"I don't have a tremendous amount of faith in the creators, nor am I willing to condemn them for what I haven't seen."

But just the fact that you're not even willing to say that this episode was great until you see the following ones IS condemning them. I think it's really funny how no matter how good an episode is, there is always something that you can find to complain about. And it's been going on the whole season. So here we are with an intense episode that was suspenseful and exciting from beginning to end, and now you're complaining because the story was "incomplete". Here's something to think about- season finales usually are incomplete, because that's how they get you to look forward to next season. Nonetheless, when the new season finally does start, I have no doubt that you will not approve of the way things were resolved and then you can start your complaining all over again. Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but you've been carrying on like watching the show is torture for you all season, and enough is enough. I don't think we could have asked for a better season finale, yet you can't even say that it was a good episode. Only that "I liked it, but..." It deserves a lot more than that.

CAZoneWoman

Aug 30 2005, 09:59 PM

This was a pretty powerful episode on several fronts.

and

Johnny to Miranda

Seamore 9

Stillson

Bruce

Bruce on Coast Guard boat

Coast Guard guy during the search, answering the question “How long can a person last (in the water)?”

Luxorien

Aug 30 2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

I know he was referring to a prophet, possibly the later mentioned Daniel but there is also the double meaning of John himself: a young man alone and making a difference.

And maybe Stillson as well. Both men are individuals who could potentially save or destroy the world. The only difference between them so far is which option they choose.

Nice catch on the connection between "Saved" and "Valley of the Shadow". I forgot that Daniel was also mentioned in that episode.

brattytxn

Aug 30 2005, 11:56 PM

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Hidden meaning quote: Johnny to Miranda “Must be a lot of pressure being the only child of a powerful man, huh?” Johnny's dad was "powerful" in the sense that he also had visions.

How about a parallel for JJ if John accepts Janus' offer?!

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Double meaning boat name: Seamore 9 -- “see more”. I wonder what the “9” means? And, as added bonus, it’s moored in slip F8 (“fate”). Tres cool.

Great catch!!! I totally didn't see that! No idea what nine means either. Where should we look for meaning?

Do you think there's anything to the reference of Stillson's water phobia? Even Bruce made a comment of things that live there can eat you. Is this a reference to Shadows where in the opening sequence Bruce tells JJ about the monster who live beneath the waters of the lake?

brattytxn

Aug 31 2005, 12:14 AM

Ok, looking for significanc of the #9. I looked in Tarot which is the "hermit" card. Interesting read.

http://www.ata-tarot.com/resource/cards/

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When questions about the nature of existence and the purpose of life start eating away at your mind, answers will not be found in the physical world. They can only be found inside of you. You have risen above your desires and emotions because they will no longer help you on your journey. Now you must become like the Hermit, who seeks the answers alone. Only the whispers of his Inner Voice, and the light of his lamp, will guide him now. Eventually even that lamp shall be cast away, because it is artificial and will not help the Hermit forever. His own inner light must learn to shine in the absence of the light of others.

For true wisdom to emerge, there can be no distractions. Any preoccupations of the world, no matter how small or inconsequential they may seem, will be heard as shouts that drown out the still voice within. It is not enough to rid yourself of inner turmoil, though that is a step in the right direction. The next step is to eliminate outer turmoil, through isolation and withdrawal from the world. This is the path of the Hermit, who slips into darkness in order to have the light revealed to him when he is ready. Like the Fool, he is once again alone, separated from all others. But this time it not only by choice, but by necessity.

Once he has learned the lessons and seen his true wisdom, the Hermit will often pick up his lamp and return to the real world, in order to help others see their own potential as well. But the Hermit is not a teacher; he will not lecture his students and tell them all about his experiences of solitude and isolation. They must experience it themselves, for wisdom earned simply by listening to another person is not really wisdom at all. True wisdom and true enlightenment always come from within. A teacher may tell the student how he found wisdom, but the student must go and find it for himself. Wisdom is not a gift presented to you on a platter. It is a gift you give yourself.

The lessons of life cannot be rushed, or forced, or made to happen before it is time for them to happen. This statement, in fact, is one of those lessons that everyone must learn. But simply reading it on a page, or hearing others tell you about it, will not give you the experience of the lesson. Only by doing - or not doing - can we ever hope to understand. Knowledge only becomes wisdom when we earn it, through the sacrifice of our familiar surroundings and all the people we hold dear. If you think about it logically, everything you leave behind when you follow the Hermit's call will remain when you return. The only thing that will have changed is you.

The appearance of the Hermit is a call to learn more about yourself and the nature of your existence, and everyone experiences this call at some point in their lives. Take this as a sign that your worldly problems and affairs can safely be put on hold; there is greater, inner work to be done now. Often this will refer to a problem you must solve or a part of your nature you must deal with before a situation can progress. Only in rare circumstances will this refer to a spiritual transformation, but when it does, know that it will be a powerful change requiring much effort and commitment. A more long-term withdrawal may be needed.

The Hermit can also show you that a mentor is entering your life. This is a person who will not teach you overtly, but who will show you how to find the answers you are seeking within yourself. Perhaps you will be the mentor who is indicated by the Hermit, in which case you must be careful not to preach to your student, but guide him. Your wisdom will not be your student's, and you must accept that before any teaching can be done. If you are ever in doubt, know that all the wisdom you will need is already inside you, waiting to emerge. This light will not come unless sought out, but when it does, you will see that you had the answers all along.

brattytxn

Aug 31 2005, 12:18 AM

Biblical numerology:

http://www.carm.org/questions/numbers.htm

9 THE NUMBER OF JUDGMENT. There are 9 greek words derived from the root word meaning judgment = dikay. The following words each occur 9 times in the Bible: abussos (bottomless pit); asebee (ungodly); aselgeia (lasciviousness); and astrapee (lightning). The gifts of the spirit are 9 in number (1 Cor. 12:8-10): the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues

Is this a coincidence?!

brattytxn

Aug 31 2005, 12:41 AM

From Wikipedia, the hebrew letter that represents the number 9 is "tet". It is linked to the "Strength" card in tarot. I've yapped about that card before.

Anyhoo the hebrew letter "tet" has some meanings: Good, humanity, to twist, a snake, to surround and translates to the letter "T" sound in English. This letter is also tied to path 19 on the Kabbalah "tree of life" linking "chesed/mercy" to "geburah/severity".

OR we can throw it to path #9 on the same tree which is "Yesod/foundation". According to one website this path represents the four 9's (one per each suit in Tarot).

If you want to look up each of the 9's in the Tarot suits go here:

http://www.ata-tarot.com/resource/cards/

Just go down the side and click on the 9 of each suite.

Digigoose

Aug 31 2005, 04:44 AM

Wow, some great commentary on the finale! Lots of discussion like this is a good sign... I actually had to go to the 2nd page of posts to start my reading today, which hasn't happened for any other episode yet this season! Of course my page settings are different than everybody else's anyway, but you get my point.

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This was a pretty powerful episode on several fronts.

[*]We see a human side of Stillson. I really like SPF – he’s a fantastic actor, and he looks like he’s a really nice person – so I especially enjoyed seeing both of Stillson’s sides handled deftly and seamlessly. His love for Miranda was believable, despite seeming to be a total reversal for the Stillson persona. Just goes to show: Every coin has 2 sides.

Same here! SPF always delivers great performances as Stillson, and his character/personality was handled wonderfully in this episode!

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[*]Hidden meaning quote: Johnny to Miranda “Must be a lot of pressure being the only child of a powerful man, huh?” Johnny's dad was "powerful" in the sense that he also had visions.

If I'm remembering correctly, that quote wasn't to Miranda, it was directed at Stillson, about Miranda, while they were looking for clues at her house or apartment or wherever it was she lived. And I like the quote because I thought Johnny's remark had a double (maybe intentional) meaning for Stillson too, what with being under his dad's thumb for so long. Then again the line would've had more meaning coming after Johnny found out about Greg killing his father.

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[*]Double meaning boat name: Seamore 9 -- “see more”. I wonder what the “9” means? And, as added bonus, it’s moored in slip F8 (“fate”). Tres cool.

Haha that's cool, I didn't catch the F8=fate thing either!

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[*]Best line department: Stillson “You really are creepy, you know that?” Loved it!

Signature-worthy

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[*]Most awkward moment department: Bruce on Coast Guard boat: “I never liked the ocean. Too many things down there that could eat you.” I don’t know why this rubbed me the wrong way…

It struck me as funny but didn't sound quite right either... a little out of character maybe. The line made Bruce sound too much like one of the dumb characters in a "B" movie about man-eating sharks or The Killer Shrimp From Hell or something LOL... one of the characters who you strongly suspect could die at any given moment.

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[*]Most clever twist and stroke of writing genius: Having Janus intentionally create a vision to deliver his message!

That was great... and creepy. Ya know what would've made it more creepy though? Having vision-Janus deliver the message, looking straight at real-time Johnny... it would make sense too, because if Janus really knows how Johnny's power works, then he should know that Johnny will be standing right where the Bible is left when he gets hit with the vision. Therefore, Janus should've known where in the room to direct his gaze, shouldn't he? But maybe that would've been a little too weird.

Anyway, super episode. I think it's my favorite DZ finale so far.

Luxorien

Aug 31 2005, 10:12 AM

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That was great... and creepy. Ya know what would've made it more creepy though? Having vision-Janus deliver the message, looking straight at real-time Johnny... it would make sense too, because if Janus really knows how Johnny's power works, then he should know that Johnny will be standing right where the Bible is left when he gets hit with the vision.

You know, for a few seconds there, I completely expected him to do that. I thought we were about to find out that Janus can do what Johnny does.

ireactions

Aug 31 2005, 10:43 AM

*ponders*

... What if he can?

I mean, why was he aware of Alex Connors' work anyway?

- Ibrahim Ng

Ruralstar

Aug 31 2005, 11:32 AM

Alex Connors was working in an industry that has both millitary and civillian applications. The company is prominent and being monitored by the government because of cutting edge advancements. Janus knows alot of people and he's paying attention. If he is part of the events that ultimately lead to Armageddon it would make sense for him to be aware of anything that would help or hinder his ultimate plans, whatever those are. I don't think Janus is psychic, in fact I sincerely hope not. Yet another character to take away from John's uniqueness.

brattytxn

Aug 31 2005, 11:34 AM

I'm really curious as to how and why Janus can quote the Bible without looking at it. He knows it inside and out. Was he once a minister? Or a priest?

CAZoneWoman

Aug 31 2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

I'm really curious as to how and why Janus can quote the Bible without looking at it. He knows it inside and out. Was he once a minister? Or a priest?

I think he's a Rapturist. Ultimately he wants Armageddon. JMO.

Bratty, I love the Hermit reference! So apt!

brattytxn

Sep 1 2005, 01:51 PM

Can you define "rapturist" for me? I'm not sure in what context it is meant? But I have heard of cult factions who think that they can force the coming of messiah, OR, they think they have a bloodline of Messiah. If this is the case they have every intention of "controlling" the messiah or think they are "the chosen people". If this is true, the Greg Stillson and John ARE being set up as the sacrificial goats. They are being played along by their weaknesses. John's is to play hero (ego trip), and Greg has the charisma to draw people like Christ did, hence the "Anti-Christ".

In essence both John and Greg Stillson think they are the only ones who can "see" and who can change "the future". Greg, from a political and completely self centered stance thinks he's doing the right thing with "good intentions" but has some weaknesses or way of operating that help subsidize his rise.

John too, now that this offer is being given, may take Janus up and then may be manipulating things in the name of "good intentions" because he too thinks he's "saving the world". Maybe Greg thinks *he's* saving the world from "holier than thou" idiots. I think this is why we see Greg and John go after each other.

Each has in a way a similar philosophy and will do "whatever it takes" to change the world to save it. IS Greg only after power? Or is he a victim, like John is, of people telling him he's "the devil" or no good because of some uncanny gift they have. Greg's is charisma and fast talk. John is his power to see things.

The difference between the two, at least right now, is running over people, raining down misery, or even a situation like in "Grains of Sand" of how many people are you going to let be destroyed all in the name of their quest.

Greg hates John, why? Because John is after him? Judging him and not knowing the real him? Doesn't the public judge John? John hates that.

Let's pull another possible parallel, and that is "fathers". Greg Stillson has a "true love" whom he's let see the real him, a drunken tormented man who killed his father. Greg did step one of the 12 step program and admitted his problem.

Now, John. He doesn't want to remember one flippin' thing about his father. Herb was "the crazy man". John does not want to be seen as "crazy". Does he want to be associated with "crazy"? IS that what his mother was protecting him from? When Herb died, did John do something that he, as a little boy, felt responsible for over events surrounding his father's death? Look at what "Coming Home" taught us.

John told Stillson he remembers "everything". Not true. He doesn't remember his father. HE doesn't remember the events of Rachel's murder. He doesn't remember or he blots out in his memory things that are of great trauma. It's not unheard of. Or selective memory. Only remember what you want or look at the facts you want? Ignoring the truth doesn't make it a lie. John's philosophy as he told Sarah: Don't ask questions you don't want the answers to.

Greg may be doing that with Janus. He knows the man does crooked things but he never asks therefore he's innocent or didn't do anything wrong.

Oh well...back to other things.

I was looking for hermit references and came across The Fisher King. This is an Arthurian legend reference. This is significant to me because of the use of Camelot in DZ. I think I know how it might tie in but am working on some other things.

I was also wondering something the other day about "shadow" references. Mr. Graydon from "Still life". He was a guy who was in the background for Andrew Lyne. He lusted after Chloe, a girl who's image was the muse for Lyne's talent. She was not the real daughter for Lyne but his idea of her. Anyhoo, Graydon got the girl in order to inspire a "second life/chance" for Lyne's talent or gift.

Next reference is "Shadow Man" from Coming Home. An apparition made up in order to "scare" the residences to keep from "wandering" and "falling". FJ is a "shadow man" isn't he? He looks nasty, acts nasty, maybe was nasty but somehow was turned but too late?

"True love" was referenced in "Coming Home". It was a boat that docked and was set fire too. Arson. Why? Most likely either for money or out of spite because "true love" wasn't real. Stillson's "true love" "jumped ship".

You gotta be careful and not scare the "true love" or she'll bolt. So, what do you do to hold her? Blackmail her? Hold her until she understands? Keep her because she drives the demons away? Or because she knows "the real you" that no one else knows or can see because it isn't good for public image? She has "wealth" "power/strength" and "protection"? These concepts have come up too this season. The girl is the key to the "fast track" or good health of the mind?!

Oh well, at least this show has me off and thinking again. LOL!

jophan

Sep 1 2005, 06:46 PM

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Greg, from a political and completely self centered stance thinks he's doing the right thing with "good intentions" but has some weaknesses or way of operating that help subsidize his rise.

I don't think he's "doing the right thing" even by his own criteria. If you look back at his early appearances, he looked on politics as a way to get ahead, financially and in respect (his musings in the car after the incident with the farmer's daughter). He's never worried about legality (the extortion bids with the accountant, Purdy, Kennedy) if his actions bring him money. I don't doubt that his killing his father affected him psychologically, making it easier for Janus to assert control. But his attitude toward politics appears purely pragmatic -- do what it takes to get elected and re-elected by appealing to the populace rather than doing the "right" thing. And hide whatever won't be appealing.

On the other hand, I agree with a prior poster who said that Johnny overestimates Stillson's actual "evil". Almost everything Stillson does is focussed on raising money or gaining respect in spite of his methods. Or covering his ass (Kennedy's murder, presuming he sent Elliman rather than James doing so or Elliman taking it on himself).

My understanding of a "rapturist" is a particular sub-group of fundamentalist Christians who believe that Armageddon is imminent and that fulfillment of the requirements should be encouraged, since the final judgement will follow and believers will be united with Christ. I have a hard time reconciling this with Janus, who willingly uses sinful methods (violence, extortion) which you would think would disqualify him from participating. (But I was raised Catholic, and don't know how absolution is treated in these sects.)

CAZoneWoman

Sep 1 2005, 10:41 PM

Quote:

My understanding of a "rapturist" is a particular sub-group of fundamentalist Christians who believe that Armageddon is imminent and that fulfillment of the requirements should be encouraged, since the final judgement will follow and believers will be united with Christ. I have a hard time reconciling this with Janus, who willingly uses sinful methods (violence, extortion) which you would think would disqualify him from participating. (But I was raised Catholic, and don't know how absolution is treated in these sects.)

LOL, former Catholic here, too.

Anyway, you're right that he is basically a "sinner" in that he does evil things, but he may justify it in his mind (as so many radical Christians do -- just consider the violence at birth control clinics, KKK, etc.) because it will hasten the Rapture and is thereby blessed.

Frankly I hadn't thought of this at all until I heard him quoting the bible. The actor (can't think of his name, sorry...) did a great job. It seemed to really come from his heart; not just quoting but feeling the words. If so, then Janus just may be the key to Armageddon since he has a desire for it. Any other way that Armageddon would come about would most likely be because of bad decisions (reaction to attack, premptive strike, etc.) and not intended to really cause the end of the world.

Digigoose

Sep 2 2005, 12:37 AM

My brain has reached its quota for semi-intelligent thoughts for the night... and maybe its limit too... so I'm not going to add anything to the actual discussion lol... just wanted to say that your signature cracked me up like crazy CZW! giraffes, HEE

And now back to your regularly-scheduled topic...

brattytxn

Sep 2 2005, 03:06 PM

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don't think he's "doing the right thing" even by his own criteria. If you look back at his early appearances, he looked on politics as a way to get ahead, financially and in respect (his musings in the car after the incident with the farmer's daughter). He's never worried about legality

True, he's not worried about legality. Even in the Bible "the enemy" was used to achieve an end, mostly to punish those who inflicted the "pain" to begin with or the "unfaithful".

Greg seems to have an attitude about "holier than thou". We don't know much about his mother but his father called her a two-bit whore basically. She may have been a woman with no means and used every means to keep herself and her son alive. Most likely too "pious people" turned their nose up at her and maybe have even refused her help.

This would be very Stephen King in reference to people like Delores Claiborn. Now granted, Delores's children went on to be very law abiding and good citizens. Why? Because she removed the bad influence which was their father. Now, if DZ is going along these lines with Greg's backstory, his mother died and he was left with no one but his father, possibly a man who used his triumph over tragedy personal story as some badge of honor when he was nothing by a lying drunk. That was what Delores Claiborne's hubbie did.

Greg tried to do the 'honest' way and the Bible way. He threw it out and took matters in his own hands. One because he came to know about "greatness". He most likely had a great vision of some kind. He knew he was on his way to the top for a reason. Just like John was given his gift for a reason. Somehow or for whatever reason, Greg got into politics. Why?

To punish those "holier than thou" people? To change the way of life that he thinks only he has the answers to? A more totalitarian control? Didn't Hitler start out with good intentions? Didn't Hitler blame a people for the woes of his countries downfall? Wasn't Hitler's goal to raise up an oppressed country and make it a force to be recogned with?

I like how they are developing Stillson. I can understand his personality better, even if it drives him to eventual megalomania, "god-complex". I believe that he has to start out with an excuse or some defining personality trait, desire, or resentment (for payback), or what have you.

The book describes Stillson as the "laughing tiger." A man who laughs at the destruction of those who are counted as possibly a burden, a "blight", a plague, on society. Possibly the "holier than thou" as he called John.

Subconsciously Greg may be doing all of this for that "greatness" but his conscious mind has to lend at least some integrity to his goal, a lie to himself that gives him permission to use unlawful means to achieve his goal. That is why I see operating in the way he is. An example would be Greg's discussion with John in "DMTT". He publicly plays the role of pious politician but he tells John that in reality that the illegal means brings in much needed revenue. He's playing two sides against the middle.

Greg's philosophy could be too, is "what do you care where the money comes from if it gives you what you want". The ultimate goal is to bring everyone under a central authority, both the "good" and "evil" elements. That would indicate a "king" of sorts. And yes, it will rain down misery on alot of people.

Usually this won't stop until it will finally affect Greg on a personal level. I think this lies in the area of pride and guilt. He told Miranda that her personal happiness "whenever they were together" (qualified statement here) was all that mattered to him. Gives himself permission to otherwise out of her site). When Greg came to John to find Miranda he said he put all the pride he had away to knock on John's door. Well, not completely, there was the issue of being seen with John. So, again, there still is an issue of "pride" which, as the saying goes, "goes before a fall".

What is surprising is that when Greg shook John's hand in public, he negated John's leverage and taunts of being seen together or acknowledging him. It's going to make John look very bad if he tries to make a public statement, which he didn't care about until the safety of the girl came into question. We still don't know if Greg knows about the threats made to Miranda. Maybe Stillson doesn't even care as long as he gets what he wants and achieves his goals.

Greg's "shadow existence" is that of a tormented, controlled man. He's become a drunk because of the guilt. If we use the words of Harrison fisher about guilt, it being the only weapon a moral man can wield against himself, then maybe Greg's subconscious is screaming that whatever "integrity/morality" he had is in danger of being lost. He was quoting of being "deceived" by the devil and the punishment that it renders in the Bible. It reminded me of Purdy going nuts and reading the Bible last season.

Greg may pass a point of no return.

I think the bottom line is that for Greg and John to truly work together, they must be willing to lose everything they've worked for: reputation, power, influence, etc to make a stand against Janus. That too is an example of Rebecca Caldwell (to sacrifice all for whatever the reason), but maybe not assassination of person, but assassination of "image". One must give all, sacrifice all.

Which also reminds me of when Greg and Sonny dangled that guy over the ledge and Greg told that guy he wasn't the one to do it. It'll be someone else with most likely alot less to lose. The more one has, the harder it is to give up.

The Christ figure says "follow me", i.e. his example. The Christ figure is completely selfless and whose purpose is to "redeem" sin...or looking at it another way, taking "sin" upon himself at the crucifixion and suffering a separation from God at that time. Explanations I've read about Jesus saying "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" is because this was the time of "judgement" and "punishment". God cannot bear "imperfection" which is sin. Jesus was placed in "hell" for 3 days. The punishment completed, he arose in "resurrection" and made clean and perfect (holy).

Speaking of "hell" and 3 days. I've been thinking about Bruce's comments describing Purdy. He called him a shark and he was afraid of things in the sea that eat people. IS Purdy the fish that swallows up John and then spits him out? When Jonah "jumped ship" to save those aboard he was swallowed by a big fish. This is likened by Christ in the New Testament (the miracle of Jonah) to the 3 days he was to be basically in the belly of the dark earth but later awakened by the love of God and risen. Why not a scenario of John thinking he's endangering those he loves and jumps ship..runs away? The Hermit? How could Purdy "swallow" John? Wouldn't have a clue. I'll let the writers creative minds think that one up.

Jesus said he had the ability to lay down his life and then to take it up again. Hint, hint, Mr. Writer...

As a great song I've heard recently called "HE's ALIVE".

And a poem by Dylan Thomas:

"And death shall have no dominion.
Dead mean naked they shall be one
With the man in the wind and the west moon;
When their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone,
They shall have stars at elbow and foot;
Though they go mad they shall be sane,
Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again;
Though lovers be lost love shall not;
And death shall have no dominion."

Love never fails, so it's said, and it always gives second chances..even for lovers.

brattytxn

Sep 2 2005, 03:45 PM

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because it will hasten the Rapture and is thereby blessed.

Yes! Yes! I think that's it!

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Frankly I hadn't thought of this at all until I heard him quoting the bible. The actor (can't think of his name, sorry...) did a great job. It seemed to really come from his heart; not just quoting but feeling the words. If so, then Janus just may be the key to Armageddon since he has a desire for it

Oh yeah!!! "Accredo" - give all!!! Sacrifice all!! That has to be it!!! That's the motto on his ring!!!

The actor is Martin Donovan.

I've been wondering if they've been using the Catholic interpretation of things. It differs a bit from things that I read which are more Protestant influenced! I guess they are using Catholic which doesn't matter to me. I just want to understand. I think you guys are on to it! Thanks! This so much fun!

brattytxn

Sep 2 2005, 04:03 PM

I've been doing some looking around on the internet again concerning "Fisher King" who is also called the "Maimed King". The Fisher King could also be the "Grail King".

King Arthur sent his knights in search of the "holy grail". I've read that there are different versions of which knight. One is Percival and the other Galahad. I was doing some reading in which Percival was to ask some question. Anyhoo, here is a quote from a website I found interesting:

"Wagner dispensed with the Question entirely. What is important is not the question, but the recovery of the spear (Cosima's Diary, 30 January 1877). Wagner realised that there was another possibility: Parsifal fails to understand what he experiences at the Grail Castle, until he has relived Amfortas' encounter with Kundry. He then understands through emotional identification with the suffering Fisher King."

Ok, above I blathered about Purdy somehow being the shark that "swallows" John to make him go to Ninevah and warn the people to somehow parallel the resurrection that Christ said that was the Miracle of Jonah.

Did you know that "Purdy" means "recluse" which means:

"[n] one who lives in solitude
[adj] withdrawn from society; seeking solitude; "lived an unsocial reclusive life"

Synonyms: hermit , reclusive, solitary, solitudinarian, troglodyte, unsocial, withdrawn

Now add that on top of what it says about "emotional identification". John learns what Purdy suffers because he himself will suffer something similar.

John, the Baptist was also a recluse.

brattytxn

Sep 2 2005, 07:03 PM

Been thinking about Purdy's pain. From lessons learned this season. Go back to "The House" and Vera committing suicide. Purdy may have felt that he should've been there or had done something. Maybe he was supposed to have been there.

Flash to "Scars" and the bloody hand of a woman. Some woman John loves commits suicide?! He blames Greg Stillson? The fire that rose up from John in that shot and then the Armageddon scene. This event prevented John from working with Stillson at a critical time? John went into seclusion again maybe? Tormented by his visions that must be coming faster and faster? John begging someone to make them stop? Maybe he was locked up?

The Christ figure could be seen as giving up his life, knowingly giving up his life. Only in it's perception of the act can one say was it suicide. The two witnesses, the identical pain...Purdy and John. Ack!

If Janus is a "rapturist", he himself will most likely kill them or incite his cronies to. A celebration will ensue but who does Janus think will be Messiah?

Maybe they are taking a page out of Angels and Demons by Dan Brown in some ways?! A fight between science and religion. Or maybe "cult" followings?

But, "The House" must stand. If John is Israel, the whole world is blessed through him. It survives, "...all Israel shall be saved". New Testament teaches that "Israel" is blind so that the "fullness of the Gentiles comes in". "Gentile" is basically not of "the faith". Going through a period of "skeptic" and using the imagery of the Hermit card will teach "Israel." Israel is supposed to yearn for Messiah when he/she appears and then grieve for him/her like losing a loved one (first born or family member will be good enough) because Israel finally recognizes "true messiah", the Anointed One who was "cut off".

In "Netherworld" Vera married Purdy seemingly because John survived. In "Wheel of Fortune" it seemed that they were together. If Vera had survived or stayed with Purdy, he would not have ventured after young women?! Hoochie-coochie shows?

Ok, sorry, but that thining about the premise of emotional identification and that bloody hand mixed with Christ figure just got me...

EDIT: More info...

There are soooooo many legends. Pelles, a Grail King? Whose Daughter Elaine of Corbenic? Some say she was the Lady of Shallot? Who loved Lancelot who loved Guinevere...
Isn't this somewhere in the Idylls of the King? Elaine loved Lancelot very well. She died of this so-called love.
The Lady of Shallot was said to be under a curse. The health of the land was tied to her. This is similar to the legend of the grail is it not? The grail is tied to the health of the king and therefore the land? Lancelot was said to be "pure" and een tha ability to heal? The knights were sent out to find the grail in some legends because Arthur was sick and therefore the land was dying?

I'm confused. LOL!

But wow, what a source to pull from!!

The Grail King was wounded in the side by a spear? WOW?! Now that is like the imagery of the crucifixion because Christ was wounded by a spear.

brattytxn

Sep 7 2005, 05:20 PM

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Double meaning boat name: Seamore 9 -- “see more”. I wonder what the “9” means? And, as added bonus, it’s moored in slip F8 (“fate”). Tres cool.

Just re-reading some things. For the "F8" comment, if you add in "slip", you get "slip fate". Is that a clue how to get out of the Armageddon scenrario?

"See more. Slip fate"?

The only other meanings I could get for "seamor" were "mighty at sea", "tailor", and marsh land near the sea". Well, "mighty at sea" surely is not something that Stillson is going to accomplish. LOL!