The gaol of course is to "stop" ... or prevent the catastrophe. But specifically, the words "a more evolved species" has been used twice... once by Jordan and once by Dr. Berkoff I beleive.

But what about when everyone has take then shot and the entire world is promicin positive?
It was specificlly stated that the only people who are able to produce children who are promicin positive is for one of the parents to have the "Staryzl Mutatation"..... which is only very few people limited to the Seattle area. So the world is P-positive... but produces "normal" children...... Then what?? Shots at birth?

Has this though been posted before?

I have posed that question a few times. Evolution, genetics there will come a time in the future if the world is P+ that children will be born negative. It would be statistically impossible for it not to happen. Then what? Force the shot? Kill the child? What if the child is P-and they test it and it can't take the shot? Who chooses? Then you have a situation like China where families that have daughters either kill them, abandon them,or give them away..because male children are more prized and girl babies are looked at as a curse. This is why I don't agree with the whole movement. It should be trying to find a way to live together--as Shawn wants to do---I think Jordan is creating the future he doesn't want to happen only with his side winning. It will be just as much a catastrophe.

I don't recall if this was posted before, but the fact is the only two 4400s that we know had a child was Richard and Lily, and Isabelle was a special case, to say the least. So we don't really know if only people with the Starzl mutation can produce a child with an ability. That was only a theory, and it seems not to have been pursued. I would imagine at some point, people would evolve who could produce children with abilities. For all we really know, any two P-Positives can produce a promicin positive child.

Hey Rock,

It was actually specifically stated in the episode named "Staryzl Mutation" that two 4400s cannot produce a P+ baby unless one parent carries the mutation. (The mutation was the after affect of a machine used in the past for some sort of treatment, I forget what they said specifically) Lily carried the mutation, she got it from her grandmother... thats why she specifically was the one they used to sneak Isabelle back into time.
Richard was chosen as the "donor" becuse they knew he had a relationship with Lily's grandmother in the past and therefore would most likely form a bond when they were returned. The specific words they used were "This is why we chose these two". I beleive that quote wasn't until Tom was marked this season, and was having the dreams of the "marked guy's" memories. The guy who took over Toms body was the person who did the procedure that casued Lily to become pregnent with Isabelle.... So it wasnt just the luck of the draw..

Phanta, I like your theory.
Goes along with all the sacrifices that have already happened and is along the same lines as similar ethically questioning situations of the past 4 seasons.

Was it really? I must have missed that part. Well, I still think it's safe to say that humans will evolve-otherwise the human race will be doomed. It's not likely it can survive with half of every generation dying, is it? I'm sure eventually people will start producing promicin naturally.

What episode explained this? I don't remember this.

Oh, thank goodness! Em, I thought I was the only one-I don't remember this at all.

They never said anything about Lily being a SM. They did say that a 4400 and a SM could creat a P+ baby, but it has never been said if 2 P+ can.

Yes, I just remember them saying that Lily and Richard were chosen to be Isabelle's parents due to their connection via Lily's grandmother.


That's what I thought too, Phanta.

Right on Phanta, I'm pretty sure that is what was said.

ok i think that after everything is said and done that there will be no need for promicin. the world is saved and restored after the movement. it won't matter if your kids are born p-. there won't be any need for promicin seeing that there no more catastrophe.

As I remember from the ep "Starzl Mutation", it was stated that a 4400 and a "normal" (ie someone who is P- and doesn't have the mutation) results in a P- child. We know that the PFTF put the 4400 in 2004 Seattle because a 4400 and a Starzl person can result in a P+. The most logical explanation is that the 4400 gene and Starzl are the same, and it is a recessive gene.

I think that the 4400's are homozygous recessive (ff) (they have two copies of the recessive gene--so they appear a P+) . A person with the mutation is heterozygous (Ff), (because of the dominate gene, they are P-) and a "normal" is homozygous dominate (FF) (All their children will be P-.

According to Mendel's theories, the results are as follows

4400x4400 --> 100% P+
4400xStarzl --> 50% P+ 50% Ff
4400xNormal --> 100% P- (Ff)
Starzl x Starzl --> 75% P- (25% FF 50% Ff) 25% P+

Note that somewhere in Seattle,the mutation could have caused the production of a "natural-born" (no PFTF meddling) 4400.


What is left unclear is if an "Extra Crispy" is effected the same way genetically as an Original Recipe 4400. (I assume so) and if an EC who was "de-powered by Jordon still has the gene (no idea)

Awesome! Memories of college genetics! LOL

Your last point about someone who's lost their ability due to Jordan, if they still have the gene is a question I had as well. If they do, that means they could pass the gene on to the next generation. It also means that promicin actually changes the individuals genetic structure - something I hadn't really considered. I guess I had fiigured it changed the individual physically but hadn't really considered it to change their DNA. Good point!

Since no 4400s and Starzl mutations have produced any children thus far, I have never been clear on how they could be so sure that this combination produces a child with an ability.

i dont know they never explained how they knew it. Testing? But, how would they know to test for the SM, Marco, Diana and Tom all said that it was a very rare genetic defect and no one knew of it......a missed plot?

....

so if a Starz! and a Starz! got together and had a child and they had a natural born 4400 rather than an ex crispty.. could i tbe possible that was part of the catastropy? That there will be a child born like Isabelle of two Starz! people in the original timeline?

Ok, so here's my question, if two 4400s create a P+, what kind of power does the child have? Does it simply inherit one of the powers from their parents (as there is no personality for a power to build itself off of)? Do they get an ability that somehow is a combination of the two parents powers (i.e if the mother can clean water, and the father can cause earthquakes, then the child gets the ability to clean up toxic landspills)? Or do they simply get both parents powers, ala Isabelle?

It's that last possibility that worries me. Imagine a 4400-breeding spree (which is possible now that Jorda has taken over Seattle and making it safe for 4400s to live out in the open) producing lots of children. Now, we have all these superpowered humans (even more powerful than the 4400s themselves), and each generation afterwards would become successively more abilitied.

What if they decide they don't need anyone else? What if they decide to wipe out the remaining 4400s and P-s? What if they cause the catastrophe in their quest for power and have become the elite?

I would think the genetics would work the same for passing on promicin as it does for hair color, number of eyes, etc. We don't see 4 eyed babies simply because both parents have 2 eyes, lol. So I would think the child's ability would be of normal standards, unless of course they have a "huge" corpus collusum!

Mmm.... Marco!

Interesting question, but since it has never been proven that personality has anything to do with abilities, I think it's safe to say that a child would generate it's own ability, which may or may not be a reflection or extension of it's parent's abilities. You are right-there must be almost twenty thousand P-Positives in Seattle now and it's quite possible some of them may have children. See, I always did say the PFTF should have left present day humanity alone. Maybe they saved themselves in the future, but look at the cost today!

Since it appears dependant on the person's personality i would imagine that once the power turns on it'll be dependant on the individual not the parents. The closest evidence we have of this that i know of is with Shawn and Danny. Once manipulates life itself and the other spreads promicin which while it can kill isn't really the same thing. Logically speaking if DNA were more important then their powers would roughly be about the same, but that appears to not be the case. When Tom takes the shot we will get another example of this. If Jordan's vision is right Tom will likely get a Magnetic or Telekenetic type power, and if that is true then that isn't anywhere near like the ability Kyle has, but if DNA is more important then he should get a similiar but not identical power to Kyle. I don't think this will be the case tho.

Actually time and time again it has been proven that personality is a greater factor than genetics in determining what type of power a person recieves. Look at how Maia acted in the very first episode where it introduces her, she displays an increased amount of curiosity about the world around her so it isn't a suprise she would become a precog. Shawn's first instinct was to do something to protect his cousin so life is imprtant to him so it isn't a suprise that life manipulation is Shawn's power. Jordan is a person who values control and being in control of himself and others as much as he can so it isn't a surpise that his ablity effects other people's abilities (ie remove extra crispies promicin).

this goes on further and further the serial killer was a domonering personality so his ability to control other people and forcing his mind on others makes sense. in the carrier episode she thought so negativly about herself that she thought she was poisonous and thus became that. If you look at the fact that Richard was a pilot and the fact that he had faced bigotry it's reasonable to assume that deep down he wanted to be able to move (change the world) with something not based on skin or physical aspects so he moves it with his mind (telekenisis). the guy from the pilot episode with Terrakenesis would have moved the world for his wife and ended up indeed using thos vibrations.

The fact that Shawn and Danny recieved completely diffrent powers also points towards the lessing effect of genetics, and once we see what power Tom actually gets i think this point will be displayed even more since i believe he will recieve a magnetic, or eletcromagnetic type power (think magneto). which would make him say the second strongest extra crispy especially if Meghan's power is straight out molecular manipulation vs create plants from inorganic materials.

<.< didn't realize i had posted in here before >.>

Which part of Shawn's personality generated the power to kill? Other people with healing abilities didn't get a corresponding power to do harm.

Some abilities just have flip sides I guess. I thought personalities had a lot to do with it too, especially once we started seeing the extra-crispies.

Then part of Shawn's personality must be a killer. That's interesting.

Possibly, otherwise his power has that aspect for kind of protection (i.e. the boy at school attacking him, fighting with Danny) and TPFTF knew that he would never use it without cause. He seems to use the right judgement, most of the time, and even when he doesn't he at least thinks he does.

*does that make any sense at all? it sounded right in my head! lol *

Sounds like way too much trust in the PFTF for my taste. There seem to be two sides to the PFTF. The P-Positives, who created the 4400 and who want the spread of promicin and never mind how many people die in the process, and the P-Negatives, aka the Marked, who are cold-blooded killers. Not much to choose between-I wish they'd all go back to the future and leave present day humanity alone.

I keep coming back to two things. When it was just the 4400 who had to pay the price of saving humanity, that was okay. So 4400 lives were ruined (along with the families and friends of the people who were taken) and there were some "collateral damage" deaths. That seemed to be acceptable. Certainly whenever I said I didn't care about the PFTF, because I wanted to protect present day humanity, people got up in arms and talked about how the future was vitally important and Mankind Must Not Be Allowed To Die Out. Now that the price of saving humanity is so much higher-the deaths of half the people of the present, the PFTF don't look so good.

The other thing is that the government had a promicin soldier program firmly in place and they were going to go on creating P-Positive soldiers. If anybody thinks that freedom can endure in a country where the citizens are normal and the leaders have super powers, I would like for them to contact me. I have a very nice bridge for sale. Once the PFTF inflicted promicin on the 4400 and sent them back, there was no going back. Do I like what Jordan did? No. But what is the alternative to Jordan's promicin handout? Wait and trust in the government-a government that persecuted the 4400 literally from the moment they arrived and was generating squads of promicin soldiers to oppress them more? Shawn's test, which has the virtue of more people living, but ultimately will create two classes of society-one P-Positive, the other P-Negative? There is a lot of evidence that a war between the P-Positives and the P-Negatives is what caused the pending extinction of humanity in the first place. It seems like there are no good choices here.

He has life manipulation itself or even come to think of it even if his power is healing then that must therefore also include the power to kill. What do you think Healing does to viruses that are in the bodies? expel them? put them in a coma? Healing kills them the same is true of cancer cells that the white blood cells recodnize as something that needs to be destroyed. Life and Death are connected in so many ways that it's hard to separate them, just as Healing and Killing. In other words in order to heal you must be able to Kill.

But i think it's a little diffrent than that and there may be another factor as well. It could very well be that because Shawn tried to save Kyle his concern with Life gave him a life manipulating ability. The biggest way that we will see how genetics contributes into who gets what power is what power Tom gets, and i bet that it won't be anything like Kyles powers, but if Tom's power is like Kyles power then genetics perhaps might have a greater impact, but already we know that it doesn't with Shawn and Danny two brothers who share genetic similarity.

It may end up being a case by case basis with multiple if..then statements.

I like where this conversation is going. This doesn't get talked about enough. I do agree that TPFTF gave certain abilities to the 4400 which served them the best and it suited thier personality and life goals. It's obvious that appiled to the Extra Crispies as well.

April, Danny, and Kyle are proof of that. Although Kyle is a very special case. I still think he's a 4400 (but that's a theory for another time).

I also agree about family genetics being a determining factor when it comes to abilites. But intead of discussing the Shawn and Danny, what about the Tyler's.

Lily's ability was something like empathy, right? She was able to sense Isabelle's emotions and hear her warnings of danger. (The bomb, the constant moving...) Richard's abilty is telekenisis, which turns out to be Isabelle's strongest abilty. Both parents have psionic powers and have a child that also has psionic powers to the maxium level. Sure she was genetically spliced, but that's even further proof of genes having a relative nature to abilities.

Kyle is a special case. He's orginial ability was to be a conduit from the future. Which in season one, he was. He may have not been taken long by the light, but I think the PFTF did start the process on him. (Again, more on that later.) He takes the shot, and in time gets Cassie. Cassie is able to get Kyle to act on the linnear future she knows about. So in a way, Kyle is a precog. Totally different from Maia. Maia can see all kinds of possible futures at any time for just about anything and anyone. Kyle can see one future. So going on the family genes thoery I think that if Tom's takes the shot he might get a "seeing" ability as well. Maybe something like postcognition, or he might be able to stop time, not Diana. Maybe Jordan got that backwards too.

What I am getting at is I don't think Shawn is a killer, so the power to kill does not come from his personality. As attractive as the idea may be, I don't think the PFTF had any way of assigning abilities to people. I think promicin works just the way we have seen it-a person takes promicin and they live or die. If they live they develop an ability. I doubt the PFTF would even bother to assign abilities if they could. The 4400, as it turns out, were meant to change things, not by their specific abilities but simply by their presence among us. The many situations that led up to the huge changes in the finale were not brought about by any particular abilities, and those situations would have happened even if people had different abilities. The main factor causing the changes that led up to the finale was the simple fact that people with superpowers were among the normal people.

No he isn't a killer in the normal sense, but again in order to Heal someone he also must have the ability to Kill, otherwise his healing wouldn't work at all. It isn't a direct connection that i'm refering to mind you but an indirect. Think of Shawn's ability to kill as an implied power, or in other words a power that in necessary and needed for his main power to work.

I don't know, Sinjun. It seems to me like you're trying awfully hard to fit a square peg in a round hole. I don't agree with the assessment that the power to heal must also include the power to kill, so your argument sounds to me like a way to squeeze Shawn into the personality-determines-ability parameters without making him sound like a killer as well as a healer. Maybe the point is moot-we've seen him kill.

i dont know if this was ever posted..but if taking promicin is 50/50 shouldn't that mean that pftf took 8800 people?

I'm sorry if you meant that seriously, but that cracked me up!

PFTF 1: Yes, sir we have all 8800, errr....whoops, they're dropping like flies!!
PFTF 2: Uh oh, we done messed up!
PFTF 1: How many do we have left?
PFTF 2: 4400

!!!! That's the funniest thing ever.

it's possible they have the means to test who will survive and who won't much like what Shawn was working towards.

Thank you, Thank you

<bow, bow>

I'll be here all week folks. Don't forget to tip your waitress!

not really think of how white blood cells work. In order to help keep the body healthy that cell goes around destroying what it considers to be a threat to the body. It sees a cancer cell and if that cancer cell is tagged as something the white blood cell should destory then that white blood cell will kill it, and in killing that cancerous cell then it keeps the body health and in essence heals it.


consider this also with viruses. In order to heal the body you must therefore kill the virus, which is in the same principle as cancer. In order to heal the person you must therefore kill the virus, making it dormant won't help since it may or may not reactivate in the future. slowing it down won't help it either. Killing that cancer cell will cure it and thefore heal the person.

None of this means that Shawn is a killer, but his ability does allow him the opportunity to kill should he choose to, that analogy cannot be avoided. That is also why his ability is life manipulation not just healing.

or think of this mathematically + = healing - = killing
body(cancer) to heal = body - cancer = healthy body
body(weak cell) to heal = body + revived cell = healthy body

or in simpler terms if shawn could not kill then he would not be able to cure cancer, any virus, or anything else which involves a living object interacting with the body.


ironically enough if Meghan's ablity is matter manipulation then she could cure cancer as well which means if she has that ability she's the strongest extra crispy there is. Since all we've seen is her turn an inorganic matter to organic this may or may not be the case.

it's variable wheither it's Isabelle's strongest ability or not. Look at the strength of Richard's ability vs that which Isabelle uses, in proximity to Richard. I don't think Isabelle got either or their abilities and i believe she has the same abilities as a little known Doom 2099 character. His mutant ability was to replicate the ability of anyone he's seen.

We know that Isabelle can replicate people's ablities, she turned Shawns abilty on himself and she turned the abilites of the Nova Group on their members. Before Isabelle was born she displayed Empathic ability which logically means that Lilly (or someone Isabelle had been near while in Lily had empathy) but look at what happens after Lily dies. Isabelle doesn't show any empathy abilties after this, if she did get part of Lily's powers she would thefore be still showing that power after the fact, but this points to the fact that Isabelle borrowed/copied Lily's power and used a weaker form of it as her own.

Why do i say weaker? well when Richard returned look at the strength of his power he swept multiple people out of his path easily while it took Isabelle a moment to pull up the power she needed and then use it. Even then when Isabelle wasn't in close proximitry to Richard that power isn't nearly as strong as if she were near him or in close proximitry.

Look at the trees from when Lily and Richard were on the run, she effect a large number of trees bending them all quite easily and she was in very close proximitry to richard. by the same token look at what happened when Richard wasn't present her telekenesis was much weaker and it took her a moment to be able to use it, she did get shot while knocking people around (i think it's clear the kill switch didn't automatically turn on) so why did it take her a moment to toss them around? and further she displayed the same power level richard had when he first learned his power.

so what does that mean?
Isabelle + richard = Isabelle with very strong telekenesis
Isabelle + Shawn = Isabelle who can heal or kill easily
Isabelle - Shawn = only self regeneration
Isabelle - Richard = weak telekenesis usually only one item.

This conversation may be over my head but with regards to Shawn, isn't it all explained by what's listed in his character profile as his ability -- Life force manipulation: capable of healing or harming with just his touch. Or are you asking why Shawn in particular got this particular ability?

I'm saying that I think Shawn is living proof that abilities are not linked to personalities. In one sense, Shawn is a killer-he killed somebody, his own brother Danny. But that was under such extreme circumstances....I don't think that Shawn has a killer instinct or that he is a killer by nature. I don't believe that killing is a part of healing. I was just reading LOTR today, and they were talking about the three Elven rings and how they were very powerful, but only for healing and preserving. They couldn't be used as weapons. I think the same thing applies here. I think abilities just happen and it doesn't have anything to do with personality.

Hello top dog, Are you being passionate again. LOL. Sorry, I was looking at the number of posts you have made over the years, man, will I ever be here long enough to make that many. So Rock, do you think genetics plays a part in it or that the abilities are just random? If genetics does play a part, I wonder why Danny and Shawn got such different abilities? Do we know all the family history behind this family? Do Danny and Shawn have the same Father? I am just asking, I don't know much about their back history.

There have been so many post in the past on this and most people all feel the same it is linked to their personalities more than their genetics. Kyle, Danny and Shawn are proof of this. They are all related and yet their abilities are not connected at all. I think most of the powers have a flip side. In Amy's Q&A about Jordan she states that he has promicin manipulation, that he can not only take but give, although we haven't seen it yet. Shawn has Life Force Manipulation. I think that although Shawn is not a "killer" per se he has as do we all the ability to do so in the right (wrong ) circumstances. I do believe in past post even RM posted the same that it is personality based not genetic. I don't think the PFTF could control what anyone got.

Actually, Amy Berg stated Collier doesn't have promicin manipulation, in response to Rockingmule's question about Jordan's ability:

Collier can extract promicin from an extra crispy, permanently taking away their ability. If it was a promicin manipulation ability, it stands to reason it would work the same way Shawn's ability works. He'd be able to give promicin to people as well as take it away. And if he was able to do that you'd probably have already seen him use it by now, don't you think? We're usually uber-specific with abilities. Most promicin positives can only do one thing with their ability (or that one thing and it's opposite, ala Shawn). The kind of manipulation you're talking about is giving Jordan too many abilities in one... and it makes him too invulnerable (from a writer's standpoint).

Amy Berg's Blog

I think it's just that abilities work like any other gift. Like maybe one kid in a family is musical, and another is scientifically inclined, and maybe a third is more into mechanics. And then as they develop their gifts, their personalities may start to reflect what they do, so the talent seems more like who they are. I don't think personalities ever come into a person's talents or gifts or physical aptitudes, although a personality may reflect what a person does.

By the by, if you think I've made a lot of posts, check out Bubba! He's made so many he's earned his very own title. I doubt I'll ever get to that point.

I guess I need new glasses, I read that wrong...my bad....

I don't know how i can explain what healing does to a cancer cell.. It Kills the cancer cell. That can't get any simpler. If you can't kill the cancer cell it takes over and kills the person so therefore the only way you can fully cure a person with cancer is to KILL something that being the cancer.

not a hard concept here. Unless of course you know of another way to cure cancer other than killing the cancer cell, and if you do you'd be rich. Making the cancer cells dormant doesn't cure the person it only prolongs the death.


i'll take this from a diffrent standpoint that being of knowledge. A Doctor must know how to heal people to truely be effective correct? Well if you know how to heal something then by that definition you also know how to kill something. or in terms of mathematics if you know how to add something you know how to subtract it, or i would hope you would. What you are saying is that shawn can only add not subjract but that isn't true.


or think of it this way... you know how to open a door right? so do you know how to close that same door or do you just leave every door you open.. open?

really i think the cancer cells and viruses are the best way to explain this. The only way to stop both of them is to kill those cells or those viruses. It's that simple and if shawn couldn't kill those cells then well sorry he wouldn't be able to heal anyone with cancer. It doesn't matter how you paint it or try to pain it it simply comes down to the fact that if shawn wants to heal cancer, he kills those cancer cells.

The LOTR thing is a misnomer and illogical. The most efficent killers are those people who know how to heal. Why is this so? well those people who know how to heal know the natural vulderabilities of the body. They know where the arteries are and what would happen if one of those arteries were to be cut. The ability to kill isn't related to pure power and it's a mistake to think that strength = power. It's the old Superman vs Batman question.. .who is the greater threat? the godlike being who can see through everything but lead.. virtually imortal... or the Man who can think his way out of every situation, and has a plan to take out EVERY major and minor power in the DC universe.

If Superman ever went evil, he would lose after giving off heavy loses to the other side, eventually someone would stop him, after all doomsday took him down after being burried in the earth for thousands of years and with one arm tied behind his back for most of the fight, but is Batman ever went evil. It's likely he could every major and minor power on that planet before the others even knew how to react.. in fact one of Batman's plans nearly did this when you look at the OMAC project.

More likely it's because there isn't a simple way for Jordan to inject promicin into another person.