I don't know about anyone else, but I found Jordan's outright refusal to tell people about Kevin's research--and especially his explanation why--to be pretty much a deal-breaker for me on whether or not I can consider Jordan a "good guy". At best, he's deluded himself into believing that his way is the ONLY way to avoid the catastrophe (reality is never that black-and-white). At worst, he's crossed over into "purging the gene pool" talk with his belief that it's perfectly OK to expect half the world's population to die so that only those whose bodies can tolerate promicin survive. To me, that's far too close to Nazi thinking; the only difference being that Jordan expects people to sacrifice themselves instead of outright ordering them killed. Sure he's still technically giving people a choice, but it is no longer an informed choice. He's basically decided that unless you're one of the 50% that can survive promicin, your life has no meaning, and you should willingly die because your genes just aren't good enough. Maybe I'm only saying this because I'm one of those "horrible" right-handed people whose odds of surviving the shot would be even less than 50%, but I find the entire idea to be too offensive for words. This isn't all that different from saying we should kill off all <insert favorite race here> because you're convinced they can never get along with people of your own race. Or saying we should get rid of all people with mental illness because they might hurt somebody (overlooking the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority would never harm a soul and just want to live their own lives in peace and tolerance from others). I'm sure glad this guy doesn't exist in real life, otherwise I might really get mad. Blanket intolerance based solely on things like race, nationality, genetics, etc. is a real pet peeve of mine - sorry for getting on the soapbox a bit.

Anyway, the only possible "out" for Jordan in my mind is the possibility that he's being manipulated in some way. But if what he said last night is really how he feels, then he shouldn't count on me reserving a room in Promise City anytime soon. (Not that I would be welcome there anyway, since anyone who doesn't 100% support his cause is automatically the enemy, apparently).

He is a bad guy. I just can't justify killing 1/2 the planet, no one should. For anyone to say that it is right, well, I liken them to Hitler. The differance is well apart from Hitler being real, he EXTERMINATED, Jews, Gays, Blacks, etc anyone he felt was not worthy of being alive. Jordan is no better, he wants to kill anyone who can't evolve. There is a differance between natural selection/survival of the fittest and mass murder. While I agree that taking the shot is a choice, It is now his choice to let people know they don't have to die. That is need to know information.

Wow, I thought I ranted enough to at least get a few enraged responses from a couple of do-or-die Jordan fans. Of course, I also posted it in the middle of the night when nobody was around either... Bumping this back up to try again...

What's the point? You don't like Jordan, you never have, and you're not going to change your mind.

I am not happy about his blatant unacceptance of anyone who is not a P+, but as far as not telling everyone about the test:

If you have everything you need and a qualified (and honest! ) doctor ready to go, sure, its easy for a FEW people to get the scan and find out if its OK to take promicin. As far as number of qualified doctors go, so far I count: Zero. It would be litteraly YEARS before the US would be able to handle any large groups looking for the test.

But we have 6 BILLION people to test out there! I don't really see how this is going to be 'easy' by any strech of the imagination. Most people don't ever bother to go get a CT scan in the first place, unless there is a serious medical condition - assuming you have the means and availibility in the first place. IF the research pans out, just imagine the mad rush of everyone going to get the scan, imagine the head injuries that people will inflict on themselves just so insurance will cover the cost! I only see a big panic if its announced that a CT scan will tell you your odds.

Knowing this, I have to agree with Jordan that it is a mistake to tell anyone about the test. Should Kevin figure out some other - more availible and SIMPLE way to test if promicin is OK for you, then I am all for it.

But I am still concerned about anyone who thinks that the test will be anything close to 'simple'.

On a lighter note, I find it interesting that a CT scan is considered TOMography

Kiech

Wow, Kiech, I didn't even think of this! Not to mention that 4400 abilities and taking promicin is illegal, so I'm sure the government is going to notice huge lines of people waiting for their scan. The test actually solves nothing.

If killing half the planet leads to the rest of humanity having a chance at survival, then I'm all for it, so long as it's still a choice.

From all we have been given, it APPEARS that the elites from the future are promicin hoarders who used those abilities to keep others from having that power and then using that power to gain their status. I could be wrong there though, and Jordan is trying to avert that by allowing EVERYONE to have it, and hoping that most do so.

The hilter argument is ridiculous. First off, Hilter tried to COMPLETELY subjegate the ENTIRE world under one 'master' race and said die to everyone else, no ifs ands or buts.

Second of, if he WAS a hilter, guess who would be dead already? You guessed it, NTAC and the rest of the world.

Third of, he is still giving a CHOICE. I honestly don't think he wants people to die, but it is a necessary things to prevent humanity from being plunged into this problem future. What research I would like to see is a way to tell who will live and die, THEN see if there is a way to allow those who can't handle it to be able to handle it.

I could go on and on, but I won't.

This is true and it made me laugh! The practicality of getting insurance companies to pay for CT scans in order to get the OK to be injected with an illegal substance? Damned hilarious image, at least to me.


Excellent point. Wonder if Jordan considered the fact that Aetna or Kaiser Permante wouldn't foot the bill for all those CT scans.

Excellent post, Adanu. If Jordan was a Hitler, how long would those men who came to kill him have lived? Hitler tortured people to death when they tried to kill him. Jordan released the soldiers unharmed. Hitler gave no one a choice-it was his way or the highway straight to the gas chamber. Jordan is all for giving everyone a choice about taking promicin, and whatever he may be saying about P-Positives and P-Negatives living together, he hasn't moved to harm a single P-Negative person. Diana is P-Negative, and Jordan respected her enough to tell Maia that she has to have her mother's permission to come to Promise City. And he protected Tom from Kyle's desire to force promicin on his father. Like you say, we could go on and on, but why bother? I think some people would rather see the earth a lifeless ball of dust than admit that Jordan could be a good guy.

Jordan certainly missed his 'diplomacy' check when he was talking to Shawn about all this. At the least I wouldn't have even hinted to wanting everyone dead. I would have used my above argument, which is much stronger.

Maybe Jordan felt there was no point in being diplomatic to Shawn, because no matter what he says Shawn is not going to listen to him. It's also possible that Jordan is so disappointed in Shawn that he went out of his way to say something nasty. Jordan loves Shawn like a son and from his own words and Kyle's journal, he feels their estrangement very deeply. And Shawn loves Jordan and feels terribly betrayed-even in the hospital he was saying he couldn't believe Jordan went ahead with the promicin distribution. Neither one of them seems willing to give in an inch.

I have never been sure about Jordan but now I feel I'm leaning towards bad guy. I think the Marked are bad too. Infact I think Shawn is the one true good guy.

I mean when The 4400 Centre first opened it was about The 4400 but also "unlocking the 4400 within you" even if you had no ability. Now Jordan has completely turned his back on that. He no longer wants to deal with people who don't have abilites. He also wants rid of anyone who wouldn't survive the Promicin shot. That makes no sense to me. Creating a world with only people with abilities is not saving the future- there is no justification for it.

Well, the 1st step would be letting them know that statistically left handed people would have better odds 90/10. That would still be better than 50/50.

Don't like Jordan now. Can't see changing my opinion unless he decides not to kill 1/2 the world. Was on the fence about him before, but not anymore.

Wow, the current 4400 state of affairs has definitely got me energized, how about y'all?! Here's my take on Jordan:

First let me suggest that the "futures" had intended to also impregnante Lily. They experienced total solidarity about empowering their children, the 4400s, to "change the future in the past". A child born of 2 original 4400s could have amazing abilities, hopefully positive. This special individual could lead the change that needs to happen. However remember, who did end up sparking Lily's pregnancy--none other than the elite future faction determined to stop the 4400s, in any way possible. So a "bad seed" is inherent in Isabelle. She's neutralized now, however marked "Tom's" #1 priority right now is to "de-neutralize" Isabelle and unleash her evilness. Just like Tom, it is not possible for Isabelle to stop herself...it is who she is. Unless....promicin?

So,

wow, talk about grasping at straws..
Someone's in serious DENIAL

Denial:
a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

Jordan no longer has the "4400 and non 4400's working together" slogan..
its pretty clear where he stands now

I won't defend Jordan's decision but I will blame it on the book. I can now understand why they needed Kyle to find the book and become Jordan's shaman. Jordan was already having doubts about the death toll of people dieing from promicin. Having Kyle show him the book and telling Jordan that he is on the right path was important for which ever faction that wants everyone to take promicin. My bet is on the faction that originally took the 4400 and kidnapped Maia again. Without Kyle and his ability to continually ensure Jordan that he is doing the right thing, Jordan might have given up on his mission. Jordan has stopped thinking about the consequences of his decisions. He is blindly following the book. Maybe the PFTF did something to him. My question is, if they did and Jordan is being used like Kyle then who is going to save Jordan? Will Cassie telling Kyle to kill Shawn make both Jordan and Kyle realize that they are being used? Kyle can't kill Shawn because they are cousins and Jordan will never do it because Shawn is like a son to him, so what will Cassie do when Kyle disobeys her?


P-Positives and P-Negatives
Jordan does have a point though. Jordan's decision to not tell anyone was the right one because telling people that they can't take promicin because they are "righties" is going to divide the world and create a lot of animosity between the P-Negatives and P-Positives. Dr. Burkhoff isn't sure how long it will take to proof his theory and time is something they don't have. The catastrophe is coming. Jordan is also not going to force anyone to take promicin if they don't want to. Everything would be different if the government didn't criminalise taking promicin and put people in jail for taking it. They should create better laws regarding the usage of promicin.




PS. I think it is unfair that only “lefties” have better odds of surviving the shot. It is not our fault that we are right handed.

Tom? Shawn? Isabelle?

I fa-reeeeeeeeeeeking hope so!!!

Slap him silly like Matthew slapped Isabelle?

EM, you're a riot!

Ah thank you, amerirish!

"I'll be here all week! Try the veal!"

You're welcome.

"And don't forget to tip your waitress"

I voted vor I wasn't sure before and I'm still not sure. That's exactly what's oing on with me..

Earlyer he built up this place where everybody could have his own house (don't know the word in English and am too lazy to search in a dictionary). He tried to protect the 4400... But there always was something strange, mysterious about him. you always thought, Lily said it loud, that he'd want something in return...

Then he built that 4400 center. Obviously good for the 4400. With this center he also realized of earning some money by telling people that everybody could become a 4400 (with somehow ridicilous methods). People wanted to believe that, so Jordan filled his pockets with money - which he might have invested int new things for the 4400, but surely not only for that...

Later he stole the prmicin and gave the shady opportunity to get an ability... But yet I thought he'd want something in return for this "generosity"...

And finally that. Not wanting people to know that they could find out without dying if their body accepts promicin!!

Does he really believe in what he says about 2-class society. He could be right, though, but many thiings depend on decisions. IF the P+ people decide to do good things with their abilities, there would be neverteless jealousy among the P- population, but htey wouldn't kill or anything like that. But if the P+ decide to "bad work" or shut themselves hermetic from the normal population there would come revolutin. People would want help. It's like normal life. If you know somebody could improve a situation but just hieds and... then you'd become angry...

I think many things would depend on how tthe P+ decide to live... People would loose their fear of P+... Remember, they were frightened of the 4400, too, there as haterid, and then all of a sudden people wanted to become a 4400! You just have to give them the chance to understand those abilities... People fear and hate the unknown... (if it's threatening somehow)

What Jordan said about two classes and everybody should take promicin is bad-I'm not denying that. But here's a thought. Whether or not Jordan actually saw the future, he thinks he did. And in the future he saw, it was two classes tearing each other apart that was destroying humanity.

In that case, we are distroying humanity now. People rip each other apart everyday, nations fight nations. It will always be. Removing one of the factors will not make it go away. (I keep singing this song. Is anyone listening?)

Rock, I think you hit the nail on the head cause Jordan has a plan based on his current knowledge of what is to come. One thing that bothers me is Jordan sure has lost that salesman's touch of dealing with people. He has tunnel vision that could create huge problems for all concerned. I haven't moved to the "bad side" feeling about him but was a little put off with his lack of understanding of what was involved in Shawn's plan. Instead of just saying NO, he could have put some polish to the conversation and worked at convincing Shawn there is a better way. Geeezzz....these two are hard headed! It is evident that Jordan is going to be using all his power (not abilities) to get what he wants. But here again, he thinks he knows and what Shawn wishes to do will not fit into the future events.

Kyle is truly going to be caught in the middle with the swinging doors to come. "What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? and Stay away from me, Cassie!"

Oh, he needs to say that mickey! Poor guy. I think he needs to take another long look at that book. Or, maybe he can just give his dad the shot, watch him die, and then decide the book isn't what it's all cracked up to be. Of course, I'm hoping there's another option.

Yes, Mickey, I do think this is the root of the trouble between Jordan and Shawn. All Shawn can see is people dying right now, and all Jordan can see is humanity being wiped out in the future. As you say, they are both hard-headed. If they just sat down and TALKED to each other, but they didn't even do that in the game, did they? I still think Shawn got "killed" so early because he is completely unwilling to address reconciling with anybody. He's so sure he's completely correct about everything. And I have a feeling it will take Shawn and Jordan on the same side to resolve this mess. I'd just like to take them both and lock them in a room together-a REAL room-until they iron out their differences.

It's been said Jordan is not forcing anyone to take promicin. However, he says everyone must take it, that we cannot
have positives and negatives. Does he truly believe everyone will choose to take the shot? He is smarter than that. He must now there will come a time when he has to face the fact that there will be many people who will not take promicin.
Then what will he do?

i posted that issue in another thread, and I agree. There is no way, unless they could put it in the water and airborne that everyone would take promicin.

He's acting selfish YET again.

Shhhhh!!! Don't give them any ideas!

Well, I love Shawn but I can't say that you're wrong about him. Or Jordan either for that matter.

Mickey, you are totally right. They are both hard-headed.

I wonder if Shawn and Jordan ever do end up on the same side. And if so, does Shawn join Jordan? Or does Jordan join Shawn? Or do they meet somewhere in the middle? Maybe both Jordan and Shawn kick the crap out of Cassie and send radical Kyle packing! (Did I just say that out loud?)

Maybe the shovel to the face will knock Kyle into reality. He may say F*&^ this I'm outta here, you guys hash it out. LOL

*worried*

Does it have to be his face?

I watched the previews again and with Kyle on the ground with a bleeding head, it looks to be a pivotal moment for him. I can see where he may loose faith in both Jordan and of course, his crazy dad at the moment. I appreciated the fact that he took a stand to go after Isabelle against Jordan's orders but........ I wonder if Kyle has the strength to be the person to change things cause we have far left and far right going on right now with no one in the middle to make sense of all of this confusion. Someone is going to have to step up and say Stop Already. Get a grip.



Hey Rock, how about a really really really PADDED CELL for that real room????? The game, I think you are right...no talking between the two cause Shawn died early on.

Yup...You said it first, Elessar! Now wouldn't that be a sight to behold? Giggle giggle giggle.

It's very difficult to say what Jordan will do in that event. It would be good to remember that this has not happened yet, it may never come to that, and it would not be right to judge Jordan on something that he hasn't done.

No one is judging him on things he hasn't done. We are going based off of his statement that "everyone must take the shot" and that there should not be two classes of people, that those who die should die. That's a big statement to make. The comment was "what will he do when he comes upon people who don't want to take the shot?" That's a question, not a judgemental statement. Where as the statement "it would not be right to judge Jordan on something that he hasn't done", is judgemental.

Maybe that is the reason he doesn't want Kevin to find a way to tell who lives and who dies from taking the shot, at least not made known. He doesn't want that known, understanding the survival of the fittest with the positives rising to the top of the food chain. If people do not know there is a way to finding out who can survive the shot, the movement will take over and positives make up the entire human race.

Ooops...so sorry...think I just went in a circle and ended where I started.

Hey kids, there goes Big Ben again!

Donnnnng Donnnnng Donnnng Donnnnng Donnnnng Donnnng Donnnnng Donnnnng Donnnng Donnnnng Donnnnng Donnnng (listen to the sound of Big Ben striking midnight)

And then we begin a new day.

I have never seen Jordan to be Evil. I think everything he does is right on track. If you expirenced the future as he did, the walled in cities etc, wouldn't you be willing to Sacrafice half of humanity to ensure that Humanity continues to exist?

When Kyle told Jordan to announce about waiting, I wouldn't have either. We have already learned that the future is divided. Those with powers, those without. Its already been proven those without are trying to make sure that there are none with powers. These people use technology to travel back in time and influence events to their liking.

If these same type of people existed in the past. They would already be planning a way to wipe out the 4400. Once it would be announced who could be a 4400 and who couldn't, all hell would ensue from this faction of people. Riots, mass murders, cults etc. People hate things that are different. The 4400 is no difference from this.

Jordan is making all the right moves in what he is doing. Hes not holding people down forcing them to take promicin. He's giving them the choice. If they choose to go with the 50/50 chance, it is not jordans fault.

Do you scruitinze the person who made Clorox because if a child swallows it they can die? No. It is a useful tool to society, just as promicin is. And again, he only distributed it. He's not forcing anyones hand.

On the contrary if he were to announce the test. Theoretically he would be forcing peoples decision for them. Its up to humanity to WANT TO save the world. To have a CHANCE to save the world. If everyone knows if they are able to gain an ability or not, that takes that WANT and Hope and Chance away from the people, as most of the people that DO take it, want something different with thier lives, live or die.

Just my thoughts.

There is a differance between Clorox and Promicin. Clorox is a household chemical not to be injested. And no I wouldn't hold the manufacturer accountable, I would hold the parent accountable, for putting it in a place where their child could drink it. Promicin is designed to be injected and can be very fatal. How would you feel if the Gov't let a pharmacutical company market a medicine and knew that it had fatal sideaffects, but told them not to tell anyone or allowed them to no tell anyone? If you were the surviving family member, wouldn't you be upset? Jordan is wanting to withold valuable information, no matter what his cause is, he should let them know. IT would also prove to be valuable to him, those who where on the fence about it, may take it because now their "odds" are better. Therefore, he'd have more P+s.

How is he withholding information? He was not the one who sanctioned this "discovery of who will survive". That has never been his intent, and everyone has known this from the start. He let everyone know the risks 50/50. That was his part. He's more like a pharmicutical (spelling) company that releases a new drug to the market, "Serious risks include: Nausea, Vommiting, and Stroke". He's done his part and now its up to Humanity to decide what the future holds. Sean is coming from a political standpoint of where he doesn't want people to be afraid of the 4400. He's young and he hasn't seen everything that Jordan has, especially he hasn't died and been brought back to life by the future that needs him. Its not Jordan's job to explain anything further then the 50/50 to the population.

I can see it being withholding information if he had been the one to find this discovery, but he wasn't. It was Sean and Burkeoff working on their own accord. A seperate agenda from Jordan.

There have been MANY medicines with known fatal side effects released. They do testing before they are released, and many times with these medicines, the benefits outweigh the loss. The same with promicin, if the future sent it because it is needed.

Once you have the information and you choose to withhold it --it becomes your choice and your responsibility. Genocide is wrong, especially knowing it doesn't have to be. I hope shawn let's it out. It's a social responsibility to do so. You say its up to Humanity to decide what the future holds, then they should have all the information available to make that choice. If a family of say 4, mom, dad and kids where consdiering taking the shot--and then they find out that Mom and one child will probably die, they may not take it --or just dad and one kid will take it--and they are all alive and still a family. I think it would be worth it.

nrn, you make some very valid and interesting points. Gonna have to agree with you totally on this thread.

Hes not withholding it though. He's a fugitive. He refuses to make the announcement as its not part of his agenda. Its similar to lets say the police going to a mother and telling her her son Is a murdering rapist. Is it then mothers duty to then go proclaim her son a murdering rapist to the world simply because she has the information? Should she get on the street corners and shout it. No, that wouldn't be right for her agenda which would be protecting her son. Jordan's agenda is protecting a future which is already divided by the haves and have nots. Why would he announce something that could be cataclysmic to his whole movement of improving the world through choice? If people determine that they CAN take promicin and live, its not really much of a choice at all. I mean come on how many people, once determined that they could live, would actually NOT take the shot?

Nrn, you have made excellent points and presented them with calmly, politely, and reasonably. I totally agree with you. May I add one point? I don't think that the test is all that important or could make much of a difference. To begin with, anybody who has decided to put their life on the line to take promicin is not likely to hold off on that decision just because someone makes an announcement to wait for a test that will tell if they live or die. Not even if Jordan were to make that announcement. Some people would wait, but most people who have decided they want the shot would hear what they want and believe what they want and they will believe they can beat the odds. That's the human factor.

A more compelling factor is that the tests have to be done somewhere, and paid for. The government has outlawed promicin and 4400 abilities-I'm sure they're going to notice long lines of people waiting for their test. And insurance companies are not going to pay for a test that will tell a person if it's safe to take an illegal substance. The test solves nothing. Finally, whether Shawn realizes it or not, he has just given a limited endorsment to Jordan's program. Shawn was on the TV saying for people not to take promicin, now he's backpedaled and said to wait until it's safe to take promicin. That boy's credibility is slipping fast.

Didn't Shawn say that he was agianst taking promicin with those odds and that Jordan should've waited? To me, that seems consistent with him telling people to wait till the test results.

I expect him to announce something to the world because he's the one who put the stuff out there in the first place. He's therefore morally responsible to tell the world everything he knows about it, good and bad. This isn't analogous to a mother and her murdering, rapist son (although since you mentioned it, I would expect her to at least let the police know where he was so he wouldn't hurt anyone else). This is much more like a drug company that has a miracle cure for cancer--obviously a wonderful and great thing--but in 50% of the cases it completely cures the patient, and in 50% of the cases it kills them immediately. Then, the drug company gets ahold of some research that may indicate there's a way to tell which people can be cured by the drug and which will die just from taking it. Do I expect the drug company to make this information public even though it goes against their agenda of making billions of dollars from their drug? You bet I do! Now, if Jordan had said "OK, Shawn, I'm not going to do anything yet because this is still all preliminary and you don't have all the facts, but once you do I'll be happy to tell the world about it", it might be different. But he didn't say that. Instead he said "well, I want everyone in the world to take promicin, live or die, and this information might discourage people from doing so". There is no way Jordan can still claim "free choice" if he's not giving people all the information available to make that choice. Besides who's to say the world wouldn't be just as good if all the promicin+ people were to "sacrifice themselves" instead of all the people whose body can't take it? I'm not arguing for that viewpoint--that would be just as wrong as the other way around. But, the point is, Jordan is basically saying if you can't survive promicin, then your life isn't worth as much as someone's who can. (And what's more, he doesn't even seem to regret that anymore).