I was watching *the third horesman* the other day and there is a scene where Alex pushes Bobby to state his view on abortion. In the same episode Carver hints that he is prolife.. or at the least.. not a promonant for abortion.

Do you think that characters.. not the actors now.. thier character.. maybe alienate themselves from some viewers when they do this? Is this something that is necessary to make the characters and the show more believable? Or.. would it be better if this was kept a mystery to the viewers.

I know that on Law and Order .. Freds character.. dang it.. can't remember his name on that show all of a sudden.. but his character as the DA has made it clear he is prolife.

and it's not just abortion.. but other issues.. such as the detainees at Guatanimo Bay.. as was discussed in one of the CI episodes airing tonight.

this thread is not questioning anyones own views and I'm not asking anyone where they stand on anything.. but just a discussion about characters we watch on TV.
to me ... what a character on TV thinks about something holds our attention more than a movie character.. because we tend to know .. and relate to TV characters more.. We watch them everyday.. they become more a part of us..

i haven't decided how i feel about it myself yet... I DO know.. that when a character i watch has stated an opinion that is vastly different than mine.. i tend to look at them differently.. i don't like them any less... but.. as with my own friends and family who share other views than mine...i DO feel a little more alienated.
now maybe this is a good thing... it certainly causes us to think.. explore our own belief systems more. So.. whattya think guys?

I loved that portion of the Third Horseman! Because it involved our two favorite characters. Alex wasn't letting Bobby off the hook, though he tried to side step the question. It was allowing us to see something 'underneath' the characters, their belief system. Which can always get 'hairy'.

IMOHO, the issue that comes into discussion would have to be one that has been around for a long time. Like the abortion issue, even though it is still a 'hot issue', I think people can discuss it more today than 25 years ago. That raises a question...what if Bobby was absolutely against it, and Alex pro? How would have changed the episode? Their partnership?

I think it would be very tricky for the characters to discuss a current issue (the war in Iraq, the upcoming elections, etc.). Not so tricky in discussing the Vietnam War, Watergate, etc.

And in other shows, they have covered things like the holicost (to a small degree), anti-semitism (sp), in two episodes about the 'Bay' thing (never can remember it's name...where individuals were detained, tortured, etc. without reason, or lawyers. And, I personally believe, the writers and actors handled those things quite well.




I hope that if and whenever the powers that be bring in something to the show, they take the pulse of the nation (and not that it sounds like a good idea).

I would love to see an episode where they totaly disagreed with one another on an issue that was very important to both of them.. it would be interesting to see how they work it out..

That would be. Now that they each have established their own characters...it would be interesting to see how they listen, and process each owns 'argument' for or against an issue, and if their own opinion/belief of an issue has been changed.

Not anymore Mr. B!! Arthur's gonna be in the big house, I think it's white!

Hey. Not quite sure how I would feel. Not to be judgemental (and I know we are talking about characters; not the actors themselves), but I have a feeling if a character took a stand quite contrary to my beliefs on a certain issue, I would look at them differently. Quite honestly, I have a feeling I could dislike their character. The thing would be...if they then played a character in a different show, would I still dislike them. Good character actors can play someone you absolutely hate (because they are playing a hateful person), then you see them in something else and they are playing a nice person, even a comedy, and sometimes I have a hard time liking them because of the previous character they played. Not making any sense here, I know. Maybe it's because I'm hungry. Going to go eat. Later.

Andy

I get what you mean. I'm not that fond of Ross, loved Deakins, but maybe he'll grow on me next season. Personally, I think he has something for Eames!!

andy i get what you're saying... it is especially hard when the character with differing opinion is one that you have grown use to and like.. and then.. bam!.... i also think that characters sometimes mirror the actor.. example: Fred Thompson is indeed prolife.. and he voiced that as his character on law and order.
i have a lot of friends and family who's beliefs differ from mine.. and i try to respect that.. it's hard sometimes.. as i am sure it is hard for them.

and K.. i think you are right about Ross and his feelings for Eames.. i think he'd like to be her partner.

You know bug, that would make a good topic!! I'm talkin' more than a friend, are you?

oh definitly K..I think he would like it to be more than a friend... we need to explore that.

Bug, you say when!!

So i'm not the only one who saw the R/E thing! not that i want it, but i still saw it! lol!

Anyways as for the beliefs thing, In the tird horse man even thought they go through it, they kind of side step it to. Bobby doesn't say he is pro-life, or not. He says that it can be an option. SO no i don't think that would alienate to many viewers, he doesn't say he's all for it, or all against it, so i think what ever anyone beleives they can live with his decision.

Ross and Eames getting it on together? So in "Silencer" when he says to her in the lunch room about Peter "He seems like a nice guy" he was really testing the waters to see if she's interested in Peter? Hmmm, interesting theory.

As far as controversial issues is concerned, in "The Third Horseman" Eames asks Goren what he thinks about abortion and he says something along the lines of "I'll let you know when I'm pregnant." That statement suggests no matter what he or any other man thinks about abortion, it's the pregnant woman who has to make the difficult decision and so men shouldn't dictate about a subject they know nothing about.

bug,

I am all for character development in whatever form and I think writing their opinions on all matters helps build the character. Unfortunately, people say that is a way of swaying public opinion, say if our favorite character criticized a certain political party, and all of us members in that party call their local Board of Elections the next day to switch...we wouldn't do that, but some impressionable person might.

It's like Cher playing a lesbian in a movie and then going ballistic when her daughter comes out as a lesbian. That was a part she played and hopefully the viewers know that the actors don't write their dialog. Mare Winningham played the title character in Roe vs. Wade when she had 5 kids at home. I think adding these scenes builds the character and gives the actor more background to work with. I'm all for it. Bring on the controversy.

Moon

Exactly! But more to the point it does show he thinks the woman has a "choice".

I was impressed with the dialog after Eames presses him a bit .. and he talks about uncertain times and how people need choices.. abortion has to be one of those choices... it is a little side stepping but i think it was brilliant... he did not comit himself either way.. and .. this makes it clear that it would never be his choice as a man to make it anyway.

I liked Peter, Eames seem to like him as well. Wouldn't be a bad thought? I really do Ross likes Eames more than her boss!

I thought it strange that.. after Goren had been at major case so long... and had a stellar track record.. that Ross is questioning his abillities? and calling Eames in to *keep a watch* on him. pleeeze!
For one thing... a new guy.. taking over a squadroom would surely check cases and records to see who he could rely on the most and so forth.. but obviously all he saw in Gorens record was..he's.. weird?.. why?
well that's why i noticed how he was with Eames.. i mean he leans on her.. trusts her.. relies on her more than anyone...
and what about Logan?.. now THAT record would hoist a red flag or two.. but he seems little intersted or bothered by it.
he either has something for Eames.. whether it's a fatherly thing.. big brother.. romantic or something.. OR.. he is threatened by Goren in someway...maybe he sees him as a power threat or something
either way... he was unlikable from the start..
Don't mess with our Goren

That had been my impression; that Ross felt threatened by Goren. Was it the first episode that Ross told Eames something to the effect that he had worked hard to get where he was and he wasn't going to let Goren bring him down? (paraphrasing here) I agree that he would be checking his detectives records/history to see what he would be working with. Really didn't like Ross at the beginning and never really warmed up to him throughout. And I certainly don't want to see anything romantic between him and Eames.

Lauren

That's right Bug!! We will have to mess Ross up!! I do agree with ya that he may feel threatened by Bobby! Maybe because Bobby's got it going on, and Ross isn't as smart, and Bobby will fire back at him! You didn't notice Bobby that way with Deakins. I miss him!

Life is much more interesting when the people around you don't necessarily agree with your opinions. If Eames were a 'yes-woman' to Goren or Goren always agreed with her to alleviate tension, it would remove all of the surprises. I love to watch this show because I don't ever agree totally with any one character so the twists and turns always fascinate me. Eames and Goren did not agree on what he did to save John Tagman's life and was adamant about it, as was he for his view. There have been more than a few times when Nicole was around that Eames let Goren know that she thought his "feelings" about the case might be wrong. Certainly, Goren and Carter butted heads quite a few times over something Goren had said or done. I like all of these characters, even when I don't agree with them, because people who hold opinions due to their principles rather than popular sentiment are to be valued.
I also have to weigh in with the people who don't like Ross. He does seem to be mean and spiteful toward Logan and Goren for no reason. They had better not put Ross and Eames together... I will have to record every episode and cut out all those sections!

well said and welcome if i haven't said that yet..
also so agree about the Ross thing as you know

Ross acts as though he a problem with Bobby. If I were Ross, I wouldn't push too far! No telling what Bobby will do to him! Eames needs to toughen up with Ross and tell him to get a life.

I like Peter too!


I don't want that either, but in some episodes it's really like he's flirting with her! lol!


I'm one of those people who doesn't think the death penalty should be allowed (it's not up here) so i agree with Goren not to kill him, but i didn't agree with WHY. I said this once before (maybe not on here...) that i wonder what Goren's reaction would of been if Eames had been one of those women, it's all fine and dandy to say he doesn't deserve this, but what if it had personally effected him, would he still of opossed the death penalty?Somehow i think not.

I like it when characters voice their opinion on issues. I think it gives more insight into the person

now what I know eames is pro choice and isn't she pro-death penalty? if she is then I agree with all her politics!

The way that I interpreted the disagreement in "Want" was not that Goren disagrees with the death penalty, there have been other instances where Goren got confessions that did get the perpetrator the death penalty. What I understood him to say was that his problem with it was that Tagman didn't set out to kill those women, there was no clear intent to murder. The death penalty (with which I personally disagree) is usually reserved for pre-meditated murder or murder committed during the commission of another crime, as I understand it. Using these conditions, Tagman would not qualify for the death penalty even though what he did was horrendous. Would Goren feel differently if it were Eames or someone else he cared about? I think we all re-think our priorities and opinions when things happen to those we love, so it would be hard to fault anyone for making exceptions to their belief system in those circumstances.

well.. i wasn't going to do this but i feel compelled.. i respect everyone's opinions and belief systems even though i don't agree with all of them.. and i hope my opinions and beliefs are respected as well.. i personally like it when people come together with different views and opinions.. it makes for open dialog.. and opening minds to a different point of view.
when i saw the third horseman... i was uncomfortable.. because on television and films a person who is *pro life* is usually looked upon as a closeminded person who is wrong in thier belief.. because most episodes like this portray it this way.
I worked in labor and delivery for about 20 years and I've seen abortions both by choice and miscarraiges. I've seen baby's saved and I've seen baby's left in a room to die.. when I look as these baby's out of womb.. struggling to survive.. trying to breath.. it affects me. If the parents want this baby saved.. we do all we can to make it so.. and sometimes they make it and sometimes they don't.. but I've met some who did make it.. and that affects me... some as young as 25 weeks.. i know there have been others elsewhere younger..
I know there are situations of incest and rape... and i don't know if this happened to my daughter what i'd do.. these cases certainly are not the bulk of abortions... my problem is using abortion for birth control.. there are plenty of ways to NOT get pregnant.. only one way to GET pregnant.. do the math.
it takes away our accountability.. and teaches our children the same.
I'm not a march in front of abortion clinic person.. and violence against abortionist is no different than the abortion itself... but i fear what the future holds.. when we decide we can make life and death decisions for baby's.. who's next.
did we ever believe such a thing as partial birth abortions would ever even be considered?
so.. yes i have a problem with abortion.. it scares the hell out of me.

I get exactly where you are coming from! abortion IS NOT a forum of birth control.

I loved the third horseman, and i think they should keep doing controversial things like that. Carver, i think his character is used to make the detectives look better, and have more drama (ya know, like arguing with carver). So i think thats why he was made to have a different oppinion than eames. as for if expressing their oppinions alienated them to me... i dont think so. I think contoversy adds more to the show than it takes away. I hope they have more controversal things in season seven.




ew ew ew! pleease no! that would be terrible.

I agree CI.. voicing an opinion one way or another never alienates me either... as i stated before.. it opens doors for discussion.. that's always a good thing. I don't think people should be afraid to discuss thier beliefs.. and I think people should be able to keep those beliefs private if they so wish.. for some it's not an issue of being afraid to state them.. but more of an issue of thier privacy.
In this episode when Eames asks Goren what he really thinks.. you can infer by his first reaction.. that he really wasn't in to talking about it... but when she said he'd have to do better than that.. he thoughtfully replied... maybe he's not exactly sure how he feels personaly... but he seems to believe ..especially in this era.. people need choices.. and abortion is one of those choices.. It is a womans personal choice to make..I thought it was handled brilliantly..( i think i said that earlier).
I think Carver sidestepped it more when she asked him if he really thinks that abortion is murder.. he didn't address it .. but he left me with the impression that ..whether he considers it murder or not..he has issues with abortion.
And Eames never really stated outright what her stand was on the topic either.. again we are left.. as the viewers ... our own impressions of where the character stand on the issue...
I think that's good television.