I'm watching the 4400 in Europe, and we're still in season 2, so forgive me for being behind. One question: if the people from the future believe that the 4400 can positively alter the timeline, why did they send so many back with sinister and deadly powers? Some of the 'one episode' returnees have used their powers - willingly and unwillingly -to kill (the murderer by proxy); take revenge (one of the first, who could topple houses and caused an enemy's brain to fracture); spread disease (the woman whose hands emitted a deadly virus) and others who have caused harm or - in my opinion - done the complete opposite of the goal that the future people had in returning them. Perhaps this is all explained in season 3, but for now I'm just a little confused.

We all say the same thing. Some of them we have good theories on, but not all. I think mosty its a case of they didn't get to choose what powers everyone got, and the 4400's didn't get an explaination of what they where suppose to do. It's really a guessing game. Through season 3 it's not much better, more twist and turns. I'm hoping season 4 gets more into detail soon.

Welcome to the board Pavlos! I am lovin this international flava. I look at the early seasons as individuals trying to come to terms with what has happened to them, having these powers that have turned their world upside down and trying to go back to a normal life. But they can't. Not to mention they were all taken and then reinserted in the present, a timeperiod most of them were not familiar with.
That's my theory anyway. As far as the pftf we still don't know their true motives and what I mean by true motives is whether the alterations they made on the individuals they took and redeposited were for the good of the future, or just to get the upper hand on the good pftf. But I agree, many people came back with powers that harmed others. The pftf didn't leave any instructions (or something happened that changed the way they could communicate their instructions)
Keep watching, it'll be frustrating but ultimately worth it.

The way I always looked at it was sometimes part of the Plan, while ultimately good, required bad things to happen to get there. So I wouldn't necessarily say that the future was evil because they sent back those like the girl with the virus that killed people etc because for all we know that the immediate effect was something negative but in the larger scheme of things it led to a more positive outcome.

Remember the old Star Trek episode "The City on the Edge of Forever"--Edith Keeler's death was a bad thing but it allowed the US to stop Hitler because otherwise her good intentions of creating peace would have led to the US losing the war. So see bad things can surprisingly end up leading to positive things in the long run and vice versa.

I have an odd theory about it. I suspect in a way perhaps the change that the 4400 and the promicine people has more to do with acceptance than with actual ability. If it was nothing more than say an eccological disaster then that could have been handled easier with technology. What if the 4400 and the promicine people are a way to teach humankind that there are diffrent people out there, and to teach then to accept what is diffrent because i suspect that something or someone very diffrent than humanity will appear and that will lead to humanities downfall because of the way that we treat people that are diffrent. I don't have hard evidence for this but it is a feeling.

Hmmmmm.... that's a very intersting thought. It's a question/issue for the ages: acceptance of others, fear of differences, fear of change.... those fears causing problems.

I simply can´t understand why they act on that way. They must have a very good reasons, but I don't like that they handle people like puppets.
I believe that we will find out their reasons as the series go on!

if you consider the extinction of all mankind to be a good reason... hmmm

I didn't mean that

I don't know, Sinjun. If the catastrophe was going to affect us here, now, today, then I'm all for preventing it. If the catastrophe is something far in the future, I say the PFTF should have left us alone. Yes, even if it means the extinction of all mankind. Maybe even humanity itself is part of the circle of life and will one day die out. I don't think anybody has the right to survive at the expense of innocent lives.

i'm not sure when it will happen or even if it will. It's assuming that the people from the future are turthful. As for what they did i have my misgivings about it. I think it would have been better had they asked the 4400 if they wanted the power they were being given. I think in a way that is what came up and why the shot was being handed out by Jordan. To say to people:

"are you willing to risk your life to change the world.. and maybe save it"


I think at first they were terrifed and they kidnapped those people thinking they didn't have a choice in the matter, but as things have gone along they've taken a diffrent approach.

The other thing I keep thinking is ... Jordan accepted his fate towards saving the world, as do so many other 4400s.

Good for Jordan and the 4400s who accepted their fate. What about the 4400s who died from their abilities, the collateral damage of the people who died directly or indirectly from 4400 abilities, and the many lives that were ruined by their loved ones being taken away? I still say if the catastrophe is a present day (present day to us) catastrophe, it's okay with me that the PFTF tried to stop it. If it's a catastrophe far in the future, with no effect on us, they should have left us alone. The past always affects the future, but that doesn't give us the right, if it was possible, for us to go back and destroy innocent lives to arrange things to our own satisfaction. The best way to save the future is to protect the present.

I am all for protecting the present, but to say that what is far in the future doesn't affect us doens't sit well with me, for one reason, if I have a family, and that family, say son or daughter has a family and my family tree goes on and on, then at some point, they are going to be affected by what happens in the future, do I really want to leave my future relations to deal with something that I could have prevented them from having to go through by acting in my present? I myself would not be able to live with myself if I knew by taking an action now, I might be saving my kin in the future, and yet I didn't act.

But that does have an effect on us to know our descendents will have to deal with our actions today. If i must die in order for the people of the future to live i don't have a problem with that. I would die for a child or children of mine to live. But i do think that many great channges must start with small steps, so the longer you have to promote a positive change the better. That's far better than dropping right into something and expect immediate changes.


Now a to if it's in the immediate future, and i think it isn't far off, or if it's in the far future the important thing is to promote positive change. Sometimes that change involves sacrafice. Think about the battle of Thermoplylae, or our American Revolution.. or even our Civil War. Sometimes change is hard and in it people will die, and it's horrible that happens. I would prefer to wish for taking time and effecting small changes overtime I think that is more effective but sometimes and in someways it isn't possible.

over a thousand Greeks died for their people. Thousands americans died for our revolution. Thousands more died in order to keep our nation together. Their deaths were not meaningless, just as every person who dies in the 4400 will not be meangingless. Not Devon who didn't recieve an ability, she showed the courage to take a change to create a positive change. Even that death however horrible had a point. It meant that sometimes you have to risk everything for the future and that might mean that you will die. It might mean that you will face odds that are unimaginable, but that doesn't mean you should shirk from it or turn from it.

The rewards from this might end up with humanity dieing. There is no guarentee that what happened will work, even the people from the future knew that when they did what they did. I think they knew that they would also be condemed in the future for what they did, for kidnapping people and forcing on them abilities without their conscent. For inducing a chance to change the world that was as deadly as it could have been beneficial. But i think in the end they wanted the world to be able to condem them when all is said and done and humanity is given a chance to live.

I think that giving people such abilities, and considering things that have been going on with Burkof that it isn't in the future, it's in the present.. or rather the near future.

The difference is that at Thermopylae and in the American Revolution, people knew what they were dying for, chose to fight, and knew that if they lived they would reap the reward of their effort. Sure, people want to preserve the future, but nobody wants to die for a cause that they don't even know what's going on or if it would help anyone they care about. Keep in mind we don't know what the catastrophe is, or even if there was a catastrophe. Maybe the PFTF have kept the present humans in the dark because if they knew what the truth was about the catastrophe, they would rebel against helping. Maybe what the PFTF call a catastrophe, we would call the triumph of the good guys.

I personally do not think that kidnapping and altering thousands of people is going to help anything in the future. How many people are not taking action today to save their kin in the future? It doesn't take telekinesis or other super powers to save our descendants. It takes things like riding the bus instead of using your car all the time, and recycling, and planting trees. People should donate blood and their organs-the life you save may have decendants in the future who save your decendants. People should drive smaller cars when they do drive instead of Urban Assault Vehicles, and they should develop a social conscience about where they shop and what they buy. These are small changes and not nearly as exciting as super powers, but in the long run they will be more effective.

Personally I feel that all I owe the future is a clean planet. What they do with it is up to them. I'm not interested in saving people who sacrifice innocent lives without even telling people what went wrong or asking for help. And I'm not a lemming to blindly leap into action at the word "catastrophe" and follow to my own destruction for the benefit of a far future I will never know. I'm a human being and my time is now. Before I shed my blood, I want to know what it's for. I don't want to die for some future Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden, and for all we know, that's what the 4400 are being asked to do.

While I truly get the "the only way to protect the future is to protect the present" sentiment or theory, it clearly is not the message of the show. The show is about how the present impacts the future. And I think the message is very loud and clear - that in the REAL world, humanity is not taking care of the present with a mind on the future. I feel the show is acknowledging that, for many of us, it is hard to see past ourselves, our immediate families, and our current lives, but that we must.


I feel this thought as well. If we aren't investing in the next generations of our own families, what are we doing? We are simply living our lives with blinders on, IMO. We aren't considering the future. Yes we should live this life of ours the way we feel is best but the point of the show, IMO, is telling us that our current lives do have an impact on the future and that we should be considering the future.

Great examples, and there are many more from history from all natiions, where great sacrifices were made to make a change in the present, but the expectation is that the change would have long-lasting effects. For example, the American colonists didn't break from England for just their current generation, they did it for all the future Americans that they could not even conceive of.


I agree, and I certainly don't condone abductions and tampering with humans; I would wager that it is illegal in the future time to go back in time and make changes (much like what we typically see in most Sci-Fi).

To say "I don't care what happens in the future." is wrong. I have children and someday they are going to have children, etc., etc. I would hate to think that my grand children or great grand children are going to suffer. I can't say that I am the most "eco-friendly" person, but I do try not to be too wasteful. There are those that try to make a differance and I applaude them and every small step is better than no step. But, there are millions who just don't care. There has been damage done to this planet that is irriversable. But there is so much more that we can do to make it safer, cleaner and better. I agree on the Urban Assault Vehicles. I see a mom with 1 child in a SUV that seats 8 ---just to run to the quikie mart 2 blocks away. WALK. I wish my stores where closer I'd walk. ...

The PFTF--want to save themselves--there is nothing wrong with that. Maybe the catastrophe was done before the people who are trying to save their world. Maybe its the world we left them. I think they have every right to try to fix it. They may not go about it in the "right according to us" way, but at least they are trying. They could be like so many of us that complain about the troubles of our world and don't do anything to fix it.

Interesting point, EasyMac, and the reason most SciFi holds it illegal to tamper in the past is because it's such a wild card. That pesky butterfly effect-kill one butterfly and it could have catastrophic results in the future. If the PFTF wanted to save us from something bad happening today, that's one thing. They still should have been honest with us, but at least they would be helping us now. And we would know what's going on.

But what they did is wrong. The analogy I would draw is the Holocaust. How many Jews will benefit in the future because the state of Israel exists? Does that make Adolf Hitler the savior of future generations of Jews, because his attempt at mass extinction caused the Jewish people to fight for their homeland and regain it? The very idea is obscene.

We just have different perspectives. I am not willing to lay down and die for people who don't even let me know what's going on or who I'd be saving, and I guess everybody else just hears "catastrophe in the future" and is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Maybe we should call Jean Claude Van Dam and get him to do his little "timecop" thing.

This gets back to the point of the thread... "Understanding The Motives" ... vs if their motives are right or wrong.

I think their motives had to be about survival. They told Tom that, Jordan sees a bleak future... and future people are coming back as The Marked ... clearly it's a battle of survival.

And they weren't saving just themselves, Phanta, but the future of humanity, right?

It was a dramatic, dangerous choice for the PFTF, to try to change the timeline. They knew it might not work. I'd say they were feeling pretty darned desperate.

Yes it is very desperate---so you have to think--isn't it worth what they are doing?

I don't care what happens in the future, not if what happens in the future is that future humans come back in the past and destroy thousands of lives while keeping everybody in the dark. What is important to me is building a better world today, so that people have a better world tomorrow. The plight of the future people on the 4400 doesn't move me in the slightest, because they expect present day humans to die in the dark, without ever knowing what they're being asked to sacrifice for.

They are unless people start making changes today. The damage to the planet is not irreversible. To me, that's a copout-people say that when they don't want to do things differently. The damage happened slowly, with many small things, and it will be corrected in the same way. Or we can keep going the way we are, and make this planet uninhabitable for our kind, and someday when we're all gone, the planet will heal itself and be beautiful again and we won't be here to see it. THAT is what concerns me about the future. Everytime I ride the bus or go to the recycling center, I am working to prevent that.

There is always something wrong with sacrificing innocent lives. Mere survival is not enough-there has to be spiritual survival. Even if the PFTF do save themselves by sacrificing the 4400, and all the resultant collateral damage that is occuring, they will have tainted themselves with mass murder.

We can never understand the motives of the PFTF without knowing the catastrophe they are trying to avoid. They say they're trying to save humanity. Adolf Hitler said he was trying to save his country. If he were to go into the past and tell people he was desperate to save his country, and that's all he said, he'd get people to help him. And they would be wrong to help him, and the catastrophe would be saving the Nazis.

That's a very dangerous argument, because the level of dedication to a cause doesn't have anything to do with the worthiness of a cause. Osama Bin Laden was desperate enough to save Islam to blow up the World Trade Center. He found people desperate enough to agree with him that they sacrificed their own lives. Does that mean it was worth doing?

Then you can't condemn them either, Rock. If you don't understand their motives, you can't condone or condemn them.

I can make a value judgement on the PFTF, based on what their actions have been so far. If I knew what the catastrophe was, that judgement might be confirmed, or it might be contradicted, but all we have to go on so far is what their actions have been. I condemn their actions thus far, not their motives. I don't know what their motives are, but I see their actions. So far, their actions have been selfish and ruthless. I can condemn that.

Adolf Hitler exterminated people. The PFTF are not. They abducted 4400 people, altered them, sent them back. We didn't get the whole message from Kyle (the communicator) because Agent Lytel shot him and ended the transmission. If that had not happened we may have found out. They have not killed anyone (excpet Jordan and they brought him back). The Marked are a different faction. The 4400 have very specific abilities to make change. Most of the ones we have seen have been for good. Heather making children realize their inner potential. Children that may have ended up without a future, now can make a differance. The lady with the cookies, people could resolve issues they couldn't get passed so they could move on. Let's take Diana as an example: her ex hallucination talked about her and her relationships, she breaks it off with Marco, finds Ben ( or some other guy), gets married, has a child, that child becomes a doctor that finds a cure for Alzheimers. Shawn has healed many who could now live and go on to create cures, fight pollution, who knows. Yes some have died, but many more will die if they don't act. Just because you can not see the end result doesn't make the action wrong. We make decisions all the time that will affect the future good and bad, but at the time the action was necessary. This is an arguement we can debate until kingdom come and it will not be resolved.

Also, Rock, many bad things have brought about good change. While I would never condone bad actions,sometimes the good that comes from it was worth the pain of the bad action. On a wordly scale and on a personal scale. Had I not gone through some of the very bad things in my life---I wouldn't be the person I am today. I have been able to teach my boys things that had I not gone through the bad times I could never have taught them. And looking back, it was all worth it, and I'd go through it again if the end result was the same.

Phanta, I'd like to try something. I'd like to personalize this a little more. You've mentioned your boys on more than one occasion-obviously you love them very much. Let's say you're in the 4400 world, and a person from the future visited you one day. Here is what they have to say.

We've taken your boys. You're never going to see them again. Don't worry-it's in a good cause and to prevent a terrible catastrophe that will destroy humanity in the future.

Would you comfort yourself in a lonely old age by believing that somehow, somewhere in time, your boys died in a worthy cause? Or would you deny the justice of the PFTF coming into the past and ruining your life for a cause that you know nothing about?

I do love my children very much. You are speaking to a woman who is sending a child into the military in a few months. So, there is a chance that I may never see my youngest son again. My son has chosen a path for himself and I would not interfer with it. I will miss him and if he dies fighting for what he believes in then his death has meaning.

I would have to go on my faith in God that it is what is meant to be. I may cry, agonize, but I have faith in God that he would get me through. Besides if they have already taken them there isn't much I can do to fight them can I?

you guys really like to debate, don't you?

in my opinion this arguement cannot be won. there is not enough info to make a valid decision. more info might change one's pov so there's no point in trying to convince others. one can make a make a judgement now but it would be premature. this is why judges wait till they've heard all the evidence. there are good examples throughout history and films that can be used to back up either pov. i just watched John Q again the other day and this reminds me of that movie. here a father holds people hostage at gunpoint so he can get his son's name on the heart doner's list. he threatened to kill one of them if the police didn't give into his demands. now the family members of those being held hostage would be outraged with his actions and not care about his motives. was he wrong to do what he did? yes. but if i were in his position i might do the same thing. and interestingly enough his captives felt badly for him and at the end one of them said that he was his hero. he went to jail for what he did because he did do something wrong but i imagine that saving his son's life made it all worth it. he was desperate. caught in the flaws of the medical system that he didn't have anything to do with creating. this sounds very similar to the future people who took the 4400. maybe their plight is just as desperate. but since we don't know yet making any type of real judgment and defending it so earnestly is a little rediculous. good/bad whatever. there is not enough info yet to make an informed decision. it's a question i want answered but i will wait until making any type of decision.

That's the difference between us and the PFTF. We allow people to choose and when they do they know what they are fighting and perhaps dying for.

I am sure many living in the American Colonies condemned the Revolutionaries for what they were doing when they separated from England. Those that were startving or freezing to death certainly questioned the value of what the American Revolution was. But in hindsight, most people (certainly most Americans) saw the value and appreciate the pain and suffering that had to endured.

Tis true, and that's why I say I am trying to understand the PFTF's motives, vs judging them. I may not like the why's when their motives are revealed (and may condemn them fully), but until I know all the facts, I can't condone or condemn.

I agree that there is not enough information to make a decision on the motives of the PFTF. I happen to think there's plenty of information when it comes to the actions of the PFTF. Actions speak louder than words-I don't care how much they talk about their catastrophe and how they want to save humanity, when they don't say what the catastrophe was. Their actions have been selfish, ruthless, and cruel. All through history people have sacrificed innocents to "save the world from...whatever." And all through history, it's been wrong. It's wrong now.

At least they had the benefit of hindsight. Who in the world of the 4400 will be able to look back and say that the sacrifices they were forced to endure was worth it, if the only ones to benefit are some far off PFTF? I don't get it. Strangers come, and they take people against their will, and they say it's all for the best in the future, and everybody wants to lay down and die for them without even knowing what's going on. They could be lying about everything-they could be monsters in the future trying to preserve a terrible world, but everybody just wants to spring into action to help them.

Wow, so what you are saying Rockingmule is, unless no one is going to die for the cause then we shouldn't fight for change. We should all just lay down and let life happen? I wonder how you would feel if the colonist felt that way? You have a very naive view of things. People die for causes, willingly and unwillingly. People are inherintley selfish. We do not live in a Utopian world. People have died, people are dying, and people will die---that doesn't make it selfish or cruel.

If what the PFTF told Tom is true, they are trying to save humanity. So... um... humanity will appreciate what has been done by the 4400. The people who live on after the 4400, will say the sacrifice was worth it, just as WE appreciate the sacrifices of those made over 200 years ago.

Besides, the 4400 are bringing some benefits to their current world. I am sure the parents of the sick children Shawn cured are appreciative, the parents and children who have artistic capabilities are appreciative of Heather's ability, those P+ people who felt desperate and wanted to make a change are appreciative of Jordan's vision. And so on...


I don't see too many people saying they want to lay down their lives, just alot of people saying they are willing to understand the motives, especially if the motive is to save humanity. Look at the thread about would you take the shot; quite a few people don't want to take the shot.

I look at how the 4400 are coping with what has been done to them, and what has been given to them. I don't see much hatred, questioning, anger, etc towards the PFTF. I am thinking if anyone should be upset with the PFTF, it would be them.

That's a good point, EasyMac-you're right that Jordan and Shawn and Heather and many other 4400s are making a difference today. I'm just saying that I don't blindly trust the PFTF because they say they had a catastrophe. I'd like to understand their motives, but until I know what went wrong in their world, I'm not willing to say they did the right thing.

I don't see anyone saying what they did was right. Personally, I'd like to understand their motives. I'm not sayingwhat they did was right or wrong. Just want to understand why they chose the path they did.

To use one of your examples: we all wanted to understand why the Towers were attacked on 9/11. We don't condone or say it's right that it was done when we look for the motive, we are looking to understand why. Very few people would say it was the right thing to do, regardless of understanding the motive.

Understanding the motive vs judging the action are two different things.

your statement was they came and they had already taken my sons--nothing I can do but hope my sons do what is right. I'm not into banging my head on the floor in grief over everything that happens.

Very true, EasyMac. I have no idea why the PFTF did what they did, so I haven't judged their motives. I have judged their actions that I have seen so far. And for myself, I understand enough about why 9/11 happened. It happened because Osama Bin Laden didn't care about the people he was attacking. He rejected their humanity. I sometimes wonder how many Muslims he killed in that attack, and if he thought about them at all, if he just figured they were an acceptable loss.

This is going off on a tangent, but something suddenly occured to me. Osama Bin Laden and...let's say Mahatma Ghandi. Their motives weren't so different. Two charismatic leaders with devoted followings determined to effect a great change in the world. But the actions were so different. Osama Bin Laden hides like a snake under a rock and protects himself against personal involvement-he leaves it up to his followers to fight. Mahatma Ghandi was right there in the front line, risking life and limb to fight beside his followers. I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what we were discussing, but it occured to me so I thought I'd throw it in and see what you think.

Well the Spartans and other greeks that died there while they did know what they were dieing for, they didn't know what they believed in would catch on. The oracle had told them that they would save Sparta at the price of a king. In their minds Leonades expected to die and the Spartans did as well and they were perfectly willing to sacrafice themselves for Sparta. It was in the end basically that the Spartans would rather die than kneel before another power.

You know it is ironic in your last statement about dieing for a future Adolf Hitler. Because every person who died for a democracy did just that in a way. Hitler was an elected official, and what he did was horrible, but for every Hitler you also have a Churchill, and a Roosevelt. Men who are willing to do what is right and to stand up to evil. None of them are perfect and there are things that they could have done better like accepting the ship of jewish people trying to flee germany.

The whole point is we don't know what will happen in the future. By doing nothing you could end up supporting something far worse than Hitler himself. In fact doing nothing convinced the people form the future to kidnap 4400 people to begin with. I don't think that in this case doing nothing is a very safe alternative. Althugh instead of kidnappting people giving information on the problem, technology that might help perhpas might have been better. But then i don't know what the catastropy is. We are supposed to find out what it is but i can't help but think it must have been horrible for them to do what they did. Witht he vision that Jordan saw i'd say it's very very horrible. and in that i can undertand their desperation.

That's not what happened during World War I, World War II, During the Korean war, and During the war in Vietnam. The draft didn't allow people to choose if they wanted to fight or not they were told to fight weither they agreed with it or not.

Nobody seems to get what I am saying-it's like I'm writing a blog that nobody reads. That's okay-writing out my thoughts helps me to clarify them. The PFTF have kept the present people in the dark. We don't know what the catastrophe was, therefore we don't know if it was a worthwhile cause for us to get involved in and die for. And desperation of the PFTF, or dedication to their cause, has absolutely nothing to do with the worthiness of their cause. They say they want to save the world and humanity-they could be lying about that. They could be trying to preserve a terrible future that the vast majority of humanity is rebelling against. Maybe if we knew all the facts, we would rebel against the PFTF who created the 4400 too. By keeping us in the dark, the PFTF create confusion that contributes to their agenda. People are afraid that if they don't act, they might be allowing something bad to continue. But when you operate in the dark, all options carry the risk of causing something worse than what you're trying to prevent. And there's no reason to keep us in the dark-the PFTF could be honest about what is wrong in their future. They have not been, unless what Jordan saw is absolutely true, which would make him the leader to follow. I'm not sure if what Jordan saw is true-everything is open to doubt. And because the PFTF could so easily remove that doubt and choose not to, I do question their motives.

Certainly people had a choice with the draft. They didn't have a good choice-obey the draft or go to prison or on the run to Canada-but they had a choice. They weren't dragged from their homes and chained on ships that dropped them on the front line.

Just because we have a different POV or aren't changing our POV to yours doesn't mean we don't read what you say. You read what we say and continue to have a different POV... doesn't that same logic apply to us?

Besides, it's all good. It is just a Sci-Fi TV show we're debating here.

Yes, it does, EasyMac, and I don't expect anyone to change their POV to mine. I just feel that my POV is not respected. Some people act like I'm single-handedly bringing about the end of the human race. As you say, it's just a TV show-even if this were real, nobody in power is going to listen to me or care if I say, "Let's not kidnap people in the past in an effort to save ourselves." So why do people get so aggravated when I say I don't trust the PFTF? I'm not important and the PFTF are not real.

I guess I read people differently, Rock. I see no one not showing you respect or showing aggravation to your POV. I think they are debating it with you, just as you are debating it with them.