I think we all love speculating on Jordan's character, is he good, is he evil. Most of us look at his past actions, what he was like, but there is possibly one major flaw in our doing that. The character was originally created only to be involved in the story line with Lily and Richard. When they developed that character, they made him totally untrustworthy. He tried to turn Lily against Richard, he did tests on Isabelle behind their backs, he was not a very likable fellow. But, when the decision was made to keep his character on, they made a few adjustments. He was still someone who liked controlling things, but now, he seemed to be doing things a bit more for others, not just for himself, although most of the things he did for others benefitted him in some way. The writers killing him off, if not only for the sole purpose of explaining why we had no Jordan for over half the season and the next because the actor decided to sail around the world, could simply have been their way of explaining how he changed from a self centered individual, to someone who no longer did things only for his own good, at least I should say, explain the change in a way that might be believable to some of us. After all, most people don't change their spots so to speak without something drastic happening. Anyway, this may not make any sense to anyone, but I have heard so often people bring up the way Jordan was in the beginning, and it could simply be that they made him that way because orginally they didn't intend to keep his character around long term and they didn't want us to like him. Maybe?

JordanFan, this is a very interesting take on Jordan Collier! I can give you two examples of characters who were only supposed to be around a little while on their respective shows and had a "makeover" like Jordan.

One was Spike on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He was only supposed to be around for about five episodes, but the audience just loved him. He wound up being a central character who spent the rest of his on-screen time trying to reform himself. In the end, he gave his life to save Buffy and her friends, and to save the world. Spike was so beloved that he was resurrected on the Buffy spin-off, Angel, where he carried on in his deeply flawed but heroic mode.

The other character was Festus Haggen of Gunsmoke. He was just supposed to be a one-time character, but the audience just loved Festus and they couldn't get enough of him. He became a regular character, and the first year or so he was really shady. He was drunk and disorderly and just this side of the law. In one episode, he committed a cold-blooded murder. But there was just something about Festus, and the producers cleaned him up over the years until he became Deputy Festus, standing watch over Dodge City and a beloved mainstay of the show.

I often think, since Jordan's genesis was so much like Spike and Festus, that his progress will be too-that he will steadily become a better and better person and have a heroic ending. Jordan may turn out to be a tragic hero, because of the promicin distribution, but no matter how he started out, he's been going down a different path than the producers first envisioned. I really would have to say Jordan is my favorite character of all, because I'm such a fan of redemption. He seems to me to be a man who started wrong and is working to redeem himself. And he has such a lot in common with two other favorite characters of mine, Spike and Festus!

Rockingmule, I didn't even think about Spike, but you know what, he was one of my favorite characters on Buffy. I absolutely loved it when they brought him to Angel.
I too think Jordan is my very favorite character. I won't believe they brought him down so many different paths just to turn him right back around to where he began. I think the character is just to complex. But, if I am wrong, I will be the first one to admit it, but not until the writers show me otherwise.
I didn't know that Festus was only supposed to be a one time character on Gunsmoke, I don't know what the show would have been like without him, because he added a certain kind of charm that no one else could have.

I think you make perfect sense Jordanfan. Maybe Jordan really has changed. Which would be cool. However, judging from the previews of the next episode, (which can be misleading..lol) it looks like some of TPFTF aren't too happy with the promicin distribution or anyone having an ability. Can't wait to see what happens.

sandywlmt, Don't forget that not all of the PFTF are on the 4400's side, the ones we see next week may be from the side that is against the 4400. I am inclined to believe that, but seeing as how I refuse to think that Jordan is going to turn out a bad guy, I might just be biased. , I am a terrible speller, so please overlook my mistakes.

Good point!! After watching the previews, it doesn't look like the "agents from the future" are on the 4400's side.

By the way, your spelling looks ok to me, but then again, I'm not the best speller either...lol. And please feel free to just call me Sandy. The "w" if the first initial of my last name and the "lmt" stands for "Licensed Massage Therapist". (just incase you were wondering...lol)

I think it makes perfect sense. I'd also add, though that the writers mentioned the calm messianic way Jordan talked to people as a leader also may have changed their minds early on. He was already defending The 4400 to the media and founded The 4400 Center to lead them, while bilking regular people out of their money. He also inspired Shawn and served as a father figure and a completely deplorable person could not have won Shawn over before apparently dying.

I have to say good or bad Jordan is my favorite because he is so complex. I mean one time he's doing something you think is awful like having Tom get the shot which turned out to not be promicin. Which when they showed that I said to my nephew that they better not be giving him promicin because it is totally against Jordan's character. The next time they have him forgiving someone like Isabelle. I truelly thought that I was the only one who liked Jordan.

I always felt that Jordan was too complex for labels such as "good" or "evil". I liken Jorden to Magneto from the X-Men comics or Horned Rim Glasses dude from Heroes, all 3 are complex and are just doing what they have to, to help and protect those they care about.

I truelly thought that I was the only one who liked Jordan.

I thought the same thing, Midnight! I've been defending him since last year, and sometimes I really do take a beating over it. I'm glad to see so many Jordan fans.

JordanFan, Festus was played by Ken Curtis and Ken and Milburn Stone went back all the way to the '40s. When Dennis Weaver left Gunsmoke, ole Doc lobbied to have his best friend play Matt Dillon's new sidekick. Then Ken showed up, and although him and Doc only had one short scene together, you could already see the charm of Festus. People just loved him and when Dennis Weaver left Gunsmoke permanently, Ken took over and the rest is history. Festus became one of the most beloved characters in TV history-Jon Voight has been quoted as saying that Ken Curtis is an actor he greatly admired and enjoyed working with, and that the charcter he played in Holes was Festus' cousin. And to think Festus was only supposed to appear once and then fade away! This is why there is over a year between his first and second appearance on Gunsmoke, and why to begin with his character was on the lawless side. The producers weren't sure if they were going to keep him, and they didn't know how they wanted to present him.

As for Spike, he was just wonderful and like Jordan, he started out bad, but the audience loved him, so in order to keep him around, he was cleaned up a bit. But he was only supposed to be on Buffy for five episodes, and then she was supposed to kill him.

I sure do hope Jordan turns out to be as wonderful as these two characters!

Great post. I agree that the writers needed some vehicle to explain a change in Jordan, as well as recognizing that he needed to be forced into that change. Having him die fit many needs, apparently!

I don't think Jordan is a bad guy either. If any of his current behavior is construed as bad, I would bet he's doing it based on what he was shown of the future, and I've voiced previously that I think he was shown a "selective view" of the future, therefore, his actions may make complete sense based on what he thinks he knows.

Elessar, I agree with you that this is a great conversation happening about Jordan. To me, the writers have skillfully created a complex character of charm and mystery, and Billy Campbell is doing a fabulous job. We are probably in for some more twists as Jordan makes his choices to carry through his plan....whatever that may be. We will be scratching our heads and asking "but why did he do that!" Hmmmmm I think we are in for a ride.

Im not a Jordan lover/hater. To me he isn't "good"or "evil", he's a business man. He will do whatever he has to do to get the job done, no matter what. He has done a lot of good for the 4400: Outing himself, speaking out agains the public release of the names and addresses of the 4400, uniting the 4400, giving those that had no place to go a home and jobs. He has also tried to get the mainstream to understand the 4400. His actions may not always be clear or understandable but he does what needs to be done, even if it makes others squemish. I think it's better to look at his actions independantly and as "right" or "wrong" not "good" or "evil", there is a differance. The only things that Jordan has done so far that I felt was "evil" was trying to use baby Isabelle for his purpose. Sometimes making a decision to do something isn't always about immediate outcome, long term. And the initial action may seem like its self-serving or limited in it's scope, long term it may be broader and have a bigger impact.

The only things that Jordan has done so far that I felt was "evil" was trying to use baby Isabelle for his purpose.

Phanta, I felt that was bad at the time, but now I think that shouldn't count against Jordan because he said he was sorry for doing that and Richard and Lily were willing to forgive him for it. I think if a person repents of something they did wrong and doesn't do the wrong thing again, the slate should be clean.

Didn't imply that he isn't forgiven of the action against Lily, Richard and Isabelle. Just that was the only thing I ever thought he did that was "evil".

What about the promicin distribution, Phanta? I have always hated the promicin distribution-I feel that it was a bad thing to do and I'm afraid it may be Jordan's ultimate undoing.

I don't hate it. It comes down to free will. You can take it or not. But, lily, richard and isabelle were used w/o consent or knowledge of the plan. Now if he had gone to Lily and Richard and said "look you guys are unique, you went there not pregnant, came back pregnant. there is a reason, and I"d like to help you figure it out." That would have been different. The p. distribution is far different. The people have the information they need before they take it. Should he have waited until the figured out how to make the odds of survival better? Probably. His "crime" of distributing the promicin was far better than the P. inhibitor that NTAC used on the 4400 w/o concent.

Oh, there's just no excuse for the promicin inhibitor, Phanta! And I have to say, I'm extremely disappointed that there wasn't a line or two about how the inhibitor is now safe. I mean, I reckon we're supposed to assume it's safe, since they talked so casually of giving it to that autistic boy once a week for the rest of his life. But it's sloppy writing not to at least have somebody somewhere say it's safe. One little scene, a couple of minutes, a couple of lines-it seems to me since the promicin inhibitor scandal was such a big deal, it deserves a proper resolution.

I hadn't even thought about that. I hope they made it safer. And it opens up the question: are they gonna give the inhibitor to all P+'s or just the ones that have powers they don't like? That's a whole different can of worms. It then becomes down to selection. If you have an ability we don't like we are gonna neutralize you. If you have one we can use, then you will work for us or go to prison.

I agree mickey... Jordan is very complex, and with the many unanswered questions regarding his motivations, who showed him what, what he actually saw, etc... the writers have left themselves opportunities to make him a very good man, a confused but well-intentioned man, an evil man, etc etc. Very smart when you think of it. Jordan can be a winner, a winner of sorts, a loser...

I don't think Jordan is actually complex-I think he just SEEMS that way. Jordan seems very simple to me-as Phanta has said, he sees his goal and he goes for it. He'll do whatever it takes to get there, as long as he doesn't hurt anybody, because his heart is in the right place. Jordan actually seems very straightforward to me.

(Quote Muldfeld-
I think it makes perfect sense. I'd also add, though that the writers mentioned the calm messianic way Jordan talked to people as a leader also may have changed their minds early on. He was already defending The 4400 to the media and founded The 4400 Center to lead them, while bilking regular people out of their money. He also inspired Shawn and served as a father figure and a completely deplorable person could not have won Shawn over before apparently dying. )

Forgive me you guys, I have not yet learned to quote properly, anyhow,
I agree with you on this, I don't think Jordan was ever completely deplorable, just very self serving at first, he helped others yes, but mostly when it benefited him to do so. I don't think Shawn would have cared so much about him if he didn't have something worth while in him though. I just think dying may have been the only way he could be made to see the bigger picture of what he was meant to do. And again, as we all have speculated, what that bigger picture was is still under suspion, as well as who actually showed it to him. The one thing I think we can all agree on, is that he completely believes it though. He has no doubts at all about it being the right thing to do. So I hope it doesn't turn out he was mislead. I like his character to much, and to be honest, it would break my heart.

By the way, it is nice to see so many Jordan Fans on the board. I too thought I was one of the only folks who liked him.

rockingmule, thanks for taking care of him for so long. Maybe the rest of us can step up and help you defend him now. There is strength in numbers.

I don't think Shawn would have cared so much about him if he didn't have something worth while in him though.

That's a good point, JordanFan. There is a theory now that Shawn can see evil in someone, and that's amusing to me because some of the people who insist on this point are against Jordan. If Shawn can see evil in a person, and Jordan is evil, it would follow that Shawn could see evil in Jordan. I suppose there could be some waffling and the theory could be refined to entities instead of evil, but I totally agree with you. Shawn is young and impressionable, but he wasn't fooled by Isabelle. He lusted for her, and he tried to be a friend to her, but he never loved her. At the time, there just wasn't anything in her to love. I don't think Shawn was fooled by Jordan either. I hope at some point they reconcile.

rockingmule, thanks for taking care of him for so long. Maybe the rest of us can step up and help you defend him now. There is strength in numbers.

Thanks! I could use the help, because I think it's getting even crazier these days. I thought for sure when Jordan released Tom unharmed and gave Isabelle a second chance, that would give some people pause, but somehow those actions got twisted into more "proof" of Jordan's bad nature.

Well if Shawn can "sense or see evil", he probably didnt see that in Jordan. However, I do think that he can see Jordan for what he is. To quote the cute Mr. Shawn Farrell. "You can be a manipulative prick, you know that?"

Shawn and Jordan were good for each other. Shawn was always ready to tell Jordan when he was acting like a jerk, and Jordan was able to counsel Shawn on when he was being too idealistic. I hope they reconcile because those two need each other.

Shawn isn't just blindly folowing Jordan and yet Shawn still supports Jodan and thinks highly of him. By supporting Jordan I don't mean that Shawn supports distributing promicin cuz we all know what Shawn said about that; what I mean is Shawn didn't make Jordan out to be evil or a mass-murderer (like Kyle accused Shawn of).

Elessar, however it started out, I believe that Jordan came to love Shawn as the son he had never had, and Shawn loves Jordan as a surrogate father. So what you're saying is perfectly consistent with Shawn's character-he has high moral standards, but you don't stop loving someone just because they do something bad. I'll be interested to see what happens when they do meet again-especially if Jordan finds out about the Senator and Hewitt.

where is everyone getting this Shawn can see evil theory from?
Shawn was told that Hewitt is evil, and what Maia had seen in her visions. Wasn't that the reason he even decided to confront him?
Before that, he thought Hewitt was just another crooked politician..

there are some far out theories here, but this one is waaaaay out there..

booey,
I think what most people are reacting to about Shawn seeing evil in someone is when he told Hewitt he wanted to look into his eyes, to see what he saw there, when they were standing in the garage, At least that is what I believe he said, I am gonna have to go back and watch the episode again. I think folks are making the leap from there that Shawn can see or sense evil in others. I may be mistaken about where the idea is coming from, and if so I don't want to offend anyone. If in fact that is what he said in the garage with Hewitt, and again, I am gonna have to watch it again to know for sure, then I too might take the stance that I believe he can sense evil or good in a person. Right now, this is all guess work. Don't take anything to heart I say, I don't even know if I got the conversation between them right. To many long nights at work and not enough sleep to say I know anything for certain.

boooey,

Sorry I mispelled your name. I am terrible at spelling.

i hear ya JordanFan

anything is possible I guess.. i just think this new Shawn theory is real stretch
but then again.. i might be wrong

(quote rockingmule:
Thanks! I could use the help, because I think it's getting even crazier these days. I thought for sure when Jordan released Tom unharmed and gave Isabelle a second chance, that would give some people pause, but somehow those actions got twisted into more "proof" of Jordan's bad nature. )

I think no matter what he does, there are certain folks who just don't want to see how he could possibly be good, they just don't like the character, maybe he is to direct for them, not everyone likes someone who decides he believes something, and then sticks with it, no matter what the consiciences are, I personally do, but that is just me. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and with the Jordan haters, I am not even gonna try to change their minds, because, as you have already said once, He could through himself into the flames of hell to save mankind, and they would say, Oh, that was his evil plan, I don't get it, but I accept it. Now the folks on the fence, I will try to help bring them over to our side anyday of the week. They at least are willing to listen.
Did I already mention my spelling really sucks. Man, I am ashamed.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, and with the Jordan haters, I am not even gonna try to change their minds, because, as you have already said once, He could through himself into the flames of hell to save mankind, and they would say, Oh, that was his evil plan, I don't get it, but I accept it.

I'm working on accepting that, JordanFan! I'm doing my best not to get worked up anymore-I'll just keep plugging away, pointing out the facts as they have been presented so far. My consolation is that so far all the facts ARE in Jordan's favor-at least we don't have to twist the facts to support our theories. I do hope Jordan won't turn out to be a bad guy after all this-naturally the producers can do whatever they like with the character, but it would be completely implausible to turn Jordan into a villain now. Othello, yes. Iago, no.