Here you go T.River.

I know this is sort of petty, but would you mind capitalizing the 'G' in goren...it's sort of bugging me. (yes, I know I'm crazy. My mom reminds me evey day)

Thanks so much for the info Bubba!

shouldn't it be standard software writting policy to always capitalize it when someone types goren or vdo?


my take on Goren/Eames relationship?

i think she is basically his sole source of support in the world. if not for eames, goren would have cracked up long ago. she's very maternal towards him, much more so than his own mama. i think eames could adapt to having a new partner, but as the seasons have gone on, goren needs to have eames as a partner. i think if ross doesn't let up on goren, we could see some conflict between eames and ross. i don't see and "shippy" stuff about their relationship, though.

In a perfect world........

It isn't petty, I did it in a hurry and noticed right away but for some reason I can not edit the title.
Do you know how??

You need to go into full edit and at the top of the page there's an option for changing your topic title.

Thank you so much!!!!!

I hate to say this, but now the capital A in "and" is bugging me... Plus, you spelled "insight" wrong.

Don't worry about it, though! I'll live!

As for the actual topic, I think I'd need to think about it and find some specific examples that I don't have right now off the top of my head to illustrate what I think. The short of it is that I'm anti-shipper, and I agree with what EF said about Eames probably being very capable of adjusting to a new partner, while over time Goren has become more dependent on Eames for stability. One detail that comes to mind, probably because Fabi let me pick the next Episode of the Week--I've settled on Mad Hops, and even though I haven't re-watched it recently, I've seen it enough to start thinking about it discussion-wise (hey, I've also been extremely bored lately. I had the last two days off from work, and the entire week before that was very, very slow). You know the part where Goren and Bishop are at the coach's place and Goren makes the observation about the location of the tv, and how the coach stands over the sink while he eats? There were a lot of little things wrong with Bishop anyway in her few episodes, with her just not "getting" Goren, and half the point of F.P.S. was about that. Maybe it's just me, but that particular part really stuck out. The way she said it was just oblivious. Eames gets characterized as the traditional cop who doesn't read all kinds of crazy things into human psychology (Goren's job), but she's not the complete airhead that Bishop seems to be. In the episode prior to that point, various things have been bothering Goren about the case, paralleling to his childhood. It's in the way he keeps mentioning how he quit playing basketball, and the coach has no problem sizing him up. But Bishop misses all of this, and she's just like "durrrrr, d0 u do thAt?!?" Eames is there when Goren suddenly starts talking about his family crap, not as an overly sentimental hugging and annoying comfort-blanket, but just as someone listening quietly who will cover for him when it's not bleeding over into the job--the phone call to his mother at the end of "See Me" when Carver asks, she just says don't ask vs. the whole "War at Home" elevator scene. In the "Mad Hops" scene, I picture her kind of standing there, momentarily pausing in her search to listen to Goren get this personal stuff off his chest, and then once she says something, it's case-related. Eames could probably get along with anyone, personally being miss popular ex-prom queen in high school and all, and of course professionally, being the completely competent detective that she is. But the Goren we've seen has gotten so used to his partner being able to deal with his idiosyncrasies that anything else is bumpy. He has enough problems with Ross on the big things, like psychological methods. With a partner you're working with all day long every day, the little things (scrolling, driving) are just as big a deal, especially if you're clashing constantly over them. Goren's so perceptive to the smallest details anyway, that might be part of what's so overwhelming about it.

i HaTe YOu PeoPLe.

Okay, thank you for this topic!!! I am all excited!

Shark's (may I call you Shark?) making many of the starting points I wanted to discuss. And making them beautifully!

I am not a shipper (despite any rumors to the contrary, or to my "ability" to perhaps possibily maybe kind of sorta make a semi-shipper-type video -- if you really look at it that way). I do theorize (based largely on the third season, and on the infamous "photo" scene in "Suite Sorrow") that Bobby may well have developed a crush on Eames at some point (maybe has something all messed up inside him now that he can't really figure out, too).

I think he's dependent on her, more than she on him.

I think Shark makes the points very well; he's so intuitive and introspective and empathic that he needs someone who "fits" in order for him to work his best. Working with someone who doesn't know and understand him, who can't work in concert with him, is probably do-able but jarring. And, as he points out in the episode "Gone", when you keep someone from doing what they're best at, they go insane.

That said, I think that in Goren's life, in general, a close relationship of any kind (preferably not a psychotic one) has been rare. His ability to understand his own feelings in relationships is probably not well developed; and his need for one stable relationship as Season 6 evolved seemed more and more important.

SO: What's Eames' take on this? I found her behavior and anger in TWAH perfectly understandable. She tried to help, to be there, and he locked her out. (I wouldn't say he "pushed her away", really, I think he simply ignored her -- and even Ross's -- attempts to empathize and help.)

But they were "alright" at the end of "Albatross". Probably a bit gunshy? But the relationship hadn't been damaged.

Then, in comes "Pete" (who has the unmitigated call to call her Alexandra!!!!) and her response to Bobby's request for assistance in a police matter was off-handed, rude, and even bitter. WHAT???

And there was no question that the writers were "seeding" a possibility of a future love interest for Eames (I don't want to see that!). And they coupled that with the unmistakable duplication of the scene from FPS where he stares at her empty chair, obviously feeling lost without her.

I'm not saying that she shouldn't have a love life because her parnter's mommy is dying, but...

And then, and this is the real question for me: "My mom wants to meet you..."

That was one loaded scene!!!! No need to have that scene at all unless there's going to be some point to it, IMHO. (Like bringing up Nicole Wallace in "Renewal"...) He didn't have to relay the message to her, but he did, with the sheepish, embarrassed kind of hope that a child might have talking to a teacher he has a crush on.

And whatever was in his mind: WHAT THE H*LL WAS IN HERS??? Where was she? She gave him a querulous glance, and furrowed her brow and formed a half-grin as if he had suggested they go skinny dipping! This is her partner of 6 years, who's mother, whom she knows all about, he would like her to meet before the woman dies!!! And all the reaction she gives him is THAT? So he grins, looks at her expectantly, and when there's no reaction, he turns back and looks out the window (seen that before this season, too.)

Okay, what's everyone else's take on this? I found it confusing and sad.

Jump in!! Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

tha scene has always bothered me too, eames reaction seemd out of character, i thought she would have at least made a sacracstic comment. maybe she was unsure of how fragile goren was and didn't know how to react? dunno

i love your posts! I enjoyed reading this so much.

re the part ab... nevermind,im going to post in bold in the actual post so i can organize this.

I really, seriously DO APOLOGIZE to everyone about my long posts. I'm a novelist. What can I say?

i don't have a problem with long posts, as long as they're coherent and have a point, which yours does. so post on tr

Thanks! Love to hear more!!!!

I will admit i haven't read everyone's post, i've skimmed most of them but i want to share my thought before i head off to sleep (I have my second day of EQAO tomorrow and i want to get some sleep). So here is my long winded (not as long as Tibers ) observation of there realtionship.

First off They are in love. Now don't anyone kill me yet i'm going to explain. Have you ever had one of those friends, where you get along great and you get really close and you tell them everything? Then one day something bad happens between you too and you drift apart, or they move and you just can't keep in touch? But years later when you think of them you still feel a little warm and fuzzy? You wonder about how great it would be to see them again? That IMHO is a kind of love. It's not romantic, it's more how you love your annoying pet, or the parent that isn't there for you most of the time, but still shows up in your life. It not family love, it's not romantic love, it's a kinda bond, that is emotionally deep. That is how i see Goren and Eames, i refrain from saying things like brotherly love, or sisterly love cause you love your actual family much different then you love your friends.

That being said, it has taken them many years to develop this kind of bond. We know if we follow the time line that at some point early on in season 1 Eames writes a letter asking for a new partner. A lot of people say that they have never seen evidence of that. Well i say that there is if you watch the first season, Up until the 5th episode (Jones), it is quite cleat Eames is amused but doesn't know really what to make of Goren, we see in the first episode (One. Who names these things? One is so unoriginal!) that they really have there differences, they haven't worked out how they fit together. Goren watches tapes and Eames goes to see an informant. It may just seem efficient, but if you watch the scene she is clearly not impressed with him. This thing is fairly obvious up until Jones airs, at which point you begin to see them fitting into there grove.

Season 2. I love season 2, it has some great episodes, It also has the first time we really see Goren and Eames working closer then partners, now they are friends, Eames knows about his mother, Carver how ever is till on the outs about it. From the beginning of this season all to the end it is gradual, but for those of you who have them on DVD i say watch the first one in season 2 (i think it's Dead.) all the way to Nicole's re-apperence at the end (A POI) and don't tell me you can't see the difference, when the season starts they are friends, by the end, He is confiding in her, and she is pulling him back from the edge for the first time in the series.

Season 3. Now, he needs her, The way the season is set up it starts just after the last one ends. Goren has just let her in, she has pulled him back from the edge, and IMHO he can now see that she will be there, without judging him. This is a first. His father judged him, his mother did, and still dose judge him, she is asking nothing but for the truth, and she is not judging him. But then she is pregnant, and she leaves, while she is gone, someone uses the case from POI against him, i don't think it's not so much the fact Bishop doesn't see the pattern, but more that this case still hurts, and Bishop won't understand why, he needs Eames too be there, without her is is afraid he might fall. This is stated well in the Gift (shortly before Eames leaves) Julian (the murderer) says to his girlfriend (sorry blank on the name) after she says that they aren't supossessed to fall, He says "don't worry someone will be there to catch you this time." In POI Goren fell, for what might be the first time in his life, some one was there to catch him, now that person isn't there, and he doesn't know how to handle it. By the end of season 3, they aren't just partners, they are a team, made up of 2 friends.

Season 4 (might not have too much for this i'm watching it all for the first time) Is fun, and exciting. The cases might be tough (the one where the mother killed her kids, and the one with the suicide pact really had me shell shocked), but they deal with them, they are a team it is clear that they can almost read each others mind. In the one where that Frank guy who was a friend of Deakins, Bobby is standing next to Frank at the end, and Eames next to him, just as Bobby starts asking a question that ends up making Frank break, Eames almost reads his mind and moves over to stand next to the girlfriend. They are both in the right place when the people snap. Or in the Tagman case (want) Bobby says John Tagman, that a common name. And without hesitation, without question Eames knows what he is on too, while Deakins and Craver have no clue. To me there ability to do that is a sign of how well they know each other.

Season 5 (once again forgive me, i haven't seen all of season 5 and i have forgotten most of it). Here is the season where one no longer has to type out Goren and Eames one can now just say G/E. they are so close by this point, and as much as ITWSH was put in for Drama, part of me wonders whether or not it was also put in to show how close they had become. Watching ITWSH (is till have it taped) You don't realize just how close they are until you see how badly that letter is tearing them apart. Bobby's character gets attacked, and Eames defends him. She is forced to read the letter, and he forgives her. These 2 completely separate people have bonded, they are so close. ITWSH is also the first time i can recall hearing Goren being called Bobby by Eames.

Season 6. Where to start, blindspot seems like the most obvious choice. Goren needs Eames, he is blaming himself which is part of why he is so upset, but he just needs her, and now he is facing forever without her, he can't handle it. Sirencall, he is there when she is out of therapy, he needs to know she is okay, thats not to say this is all one sided, she needs him too. TWAH she goes after him and when he says back off, it hurts, it wouldn't hurt if she didn't care. The whole way trough with his mom, she has been there. Quietly, silently, but she has been there. Then in silencer, she isn't there, it's not so much Bobby doesn't think she can't date anyone, cause his mom is dying, its more that he has just realized that for the 1st time in 6 years she is not there by choice. She couldn't of stayed when she was pregnant, she didn't have a choice in blindspot, but this time she has a choice and "It can be scary when some one goes away, especially some one you love so much." (Bobby says that in Blindspot) IMHO he is afraid that he will start to lose her, that she will move on, and he will be left without this person that he depends on. It's not that she isn't there, it's that she chose not to be there, she chose to be some where else with some one else. Then we have Endgame. I agree They should of had her meet his mom. But it is now cleat he is letting her in, 100%. Do you think in season 2 he would of toled her what Frank said? Do you think that he would of confided in her? In season 2 they lose the Croyden case, she lets it slide even thought Eames knows Bobby wants to solve it, But now she argues with Ross to let them keep it, she really doesn't care, it's not her she is worried about, it's Bobby. At the very end Ross asks about any arrangements being made. The way Eames answers it's clear that she and Bobby have talked, Ross expects her to talk to him even before Bobby gets his message. Eames is now very much a part of his life.

Something you should try, is watching One from season one and then watching Endgame. They are 2 different people almost with the way the act with each other. It's really interesting to see.

Well i think this might be longer then Tibers and it's now past 11 and i meant to get sleep tonight so see ya all later!

Some great points, OF!!! Thanks! I really like your season-by-season description of their relationship. I was thinking today, in relationship to a fanfic I'm writing, "when did Bobby first realize how much he needed Eames? When did he first need her?" I think I see the first hint of it in Anti-Thesis. I think he left himself exposed not just to Nicole, but to Eames as well. She had to have been watching the interview; she had to see Nicole play him. And although her little quip at the end of the episode about the scones is a little asacrcastic, I envision that he realizes at that point in the relationship that she's seen a whole lot of him that he probably hadn't ever planned for her to see.

Then comes what I think is a singularly pivotal episode, as important in Bobby's character development as anything from Season six: "Suite Sorrow". To begin with, Bobby makes a very deep emotional contact with his murderess and reveals a very deep hurt, not just to her but to Eames as well ("In my own life, I now what it's like to have your judgment, your sense of security, undermined by your parents." That a loaded revelation!

Then we have the photograph. Okay, maybe the ppicture of the two of them was a ploy to get the second picture of the registration thing for the case. But he could have taken a picture of the waitress to cover that, and the picture he takes of him and Eames is a very close one (emotionally speaking). It goes into his pocket. (I imagine it's still in his desk.)

And at the end, we have a first: Bobby screwed it up! He misjudged the woman, he "should have seen it coming, I know that anger!"

This episode is full of emotional development. And it's the first time Eames sees him make a fatal mistake.

But not the last; we get "POI" for that, and, as you point out, he get taken down several notches, and hard! Also: he lets her in. Really lets her in. I think by that point, certainly no later, he really knew he loved her and, what was probably much scarier, needed her.

So: yes, they're a "pair" (as against a "couple").

And so, as you point out, Season 3 begins, he knows he needs her, and from the start, he knows he's going to have to do without her for a time. "Oh, no, I didn't even think of that," he says, when she mentions that he'll have a temporary partner. Well, obviously he knew she was pregnant, but he never really thought that through, did he? MAybe he just didn't want to?

And then he does lose her. (Anyone notice how angry he is in the episode just before she leaves? (A Murderer Among Us) I don't think that's just a reaction to the criminal's racism; I think he's venting some fear and probably some anger that Eames is leaving (she had a choice to get pregnant!).

And then FPS. And I like your mention of "The Gift". I didn't pick up on that quotation like you did, but I loved the one before it: "We don't do so well without each other" (not exact but pretty close). That's definitely Goren at this point; maybe Eames, too? (Oh, and notice how he comes to the girl's defense and guarantees she'll get the mental help she needs?)

As for Season 5: well, ITWSH was probably the first episode in whcih the writers made a conscious effort to actually add some development to the relationship (I think I read that somewhere). And I think, as I have watched it several times, that what hurts Bobby the most is what Eames apologizes for: she should have told him. Somewhere, at some point in the past five years, lightly, maybe jokingly, she could have said something like, "And to think I asked for a new partner when they first teamed us up!" And in that context, I could see Bobby bemused and the whole thing would have probably not had any sting to it at all.

But he's already had his mother attacked to undermine him; he's had his family's dirty laundry exposed to Carver in a fashion that left him as the "bad guy" in his family. And now he gets blind-sided in court by this, after again being attacked through his his relationship with his father. He went into that courtroom having already been attacked several times, and Eames' revelation probably hits much harded than it might otherwise. And I don't think that sharp, unexpected pain has ever really gone away for Bobby; he doesn't let go of his pain, he feeds it and uses it to help him catch the bad guys.

And then you wrote, "IMHO he is afraid that he will start to lose her, that she will move on, and he will be left without this person that he depends on." BINGO!!! I think you hit that nail right on the head!

And you make a very good point, too, about Endgame: he never would have asked her to meet his mother, much less actually relate Frank's comments (paraphrased) to her before this year. It's a very daring move on his part. And that may be why I found her response so -- really disturbing. Wrong.

Okay, so this is where I fell asleep. (I'll bet you guys fell asleep when long ago... LOL) See you all tomorrow!!!

Aww, come on you guys...you KNOW they're in LOVE!! Ooey, gooey, lovey dovey, holding hands, butterfly kisses, teddybear-grams in police outfits, smoochy smoochy, XOXO, LUV LUV LUV!!

Hey, who's making those gagging noises?!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Continue with the serious discussion...

LMAO!!!!!

Sorry for the silly post. That's what happens when I'm on the computer way too late at night. Interesting to read everybody's thoughts about Goren and Eames though.

I agree with CILover, I think Alex is somewhat dependent on Bobby too. I don't think it would be apparent if she got a new partner, because she has the "people skills" to adjust to a new person. (As well as a great ability to hide her feelings.) But internally I think she would really feel a loss, and would be sad and frustrated that her new partnership doesn't work the way it did with Bobby.

I think she depends on Bobby to "get" her, in ways that most people don't. Like how Bobby respects her need for control. She knows he'll let her do the driving, etc, and that he won't be thinking "Yup, typical angry feminist" the way other male partners might. She knows he just accepts that as part of her character.

She also appreciates the way Bobby respects, but doesn't look down on, her femininity. The way he got her a chair (in Deakin's office) when she was pregnant, and the way he asked if she was okay and touched her arm in that scene in Pas de Deux (when she was trying to get the suspect to drop his gun). He knows how to take care of her in little ways, without treating her like some delicate flower (which she would HATE!)

She also knows that Bobby understands her sarcasm. That her sarcastic comments during the really grim events (crime scenes, autopsies, etc.) are just her way of coping. Whereas most people would think she's cold-hearted or numb to the situation.

And I also think that Alex kind of depends on Bobby to voice the emotions that she doesn't feel comfortable voicing herself. I know that seems backwards, since we're always talking about Bobby being the one to withhold emotions. But Bobby can be incredibly "emotional" with suspects: screaming at them, pushing them around, getting in their face, slamming his hands on the table. I think Alex has those same emotions inside of her, but her rational personality would prevent her from being so "animated". So she's grateful that Bobby does it. (Well, she's grateful unless he goes too far…)

Oh and in terms of the scene in Endgame where Bobby tells Alex that his mom wants to meet her- I thought her reaction was very "typical Alex". It's the "I'm really flattered, but I don't want Bobby to read into this and get all introspective so I'm just gonna look amused, slightly flattered, and very confused" face. It was a nonchalant but appreciative answer that she knew wouldn't make Bobby worry.

Tiber, of course you can call me shark. That's what I was called 'round these parts, that is until the typo made me "shart." Which kind of sucks, I have to say. It reminds me of that movie with Ben Stiller where Phillip Seymour Hoffman tells him they have to leave the art exhibit because he just farted and some sh*t came out.



This is a good point. It kind of comes up in The Third Horseman when they're discussing abortion, and he says he'll let her know what he thinks when he gets pregnant, etc. I still think he sort of tells her just what she wants to hear, but anyway, there's respect there. Definitely respect.



Nah, her sarcastic comments are pretty G-rated. Maybe Joe Schmo rubberneck bystander who overhears might be taken a little aback, but she's really not that callous. Goren's probably in the minority in terms of people who don't use black humor to difuse the situation. He just jumps in and starts poking. And then there's the joke about the fish scales (you know, the ones sharks don't have) in um...episode three? Dale Vander-something, and his rich mother who killed his former crackwhore girlfriend. Smothered? Anyway, that totally went over Goren's head.

Hmm, can't get the quote button to work. Oh well, i'll improvise...

QUOTE

Excellent point! In my experiences in the medical industry, both as an EMT and in working in other medical fields, almost everyone who deals on a regular basis with disease, pain, and death, eventually resorts to black (or gallows) humor to cope.

That's really interesting! I didn't realize that black humor is a pretty common thing in intense jobs like that. I tend to associate sarcasm with a lack of empathy (though not in Alex), but i can see how it could be a necessary coping mechanism. My coping mechanisms (sobbing and wailing uncontrollably, throwing up, maybe both at once) wouldn't exactly be helpful in the medical field! Ha ha ha! Talk about a "contaminated crime scene"!

Gee, if Alex's jokes are pretty clean…how bad is this "black/gallows humor" you guys mentioned?! I'm a little scared…but curious…but scared…but curious!

And this has got to be one of the best one-line summaries of a CI episode that I've ever read!!

QUOTE

Dale Vander-something, and his rich mother who killed his former crackwhore girlfriend.

Sigh. In a perfect world, everyone would have their very own "former crackwhore girlfriend".

Tiber, you are/were an EMT?



That episode with the thing about the fish scales, I think it was from "Smothered." Third episode or so of the first season. They're checking out the crime scene and they find fish scales, Eames makes a joke about them being shark scales and Goren goes, sharks don't have scales, totally missing it.

Gallows humor...eh, I don't know. Me and my partner were sitting at the bar last night making some kind of mildly offensive jokes about colon-scrubbing relating to some of our patients, after toasting prostitutes with hot glue guns (the colon thing, I can't remember where that came from. This lady called 911 because she was, as she said "making arts and crafts," she sqeezed the glue gun too hard, and some glue fell out and landed on her toe. Given the way she was dressed, the way the apartment was decorated, and the fact that after standing in the kitchen for 15 minutes we left smelling like whatever prefume she had on, we decided she very well could have been a prostititute. The timing of her call was lucky enough that we cleared up just in time for the end of our shift and we actually got out of work on time). How do you get a corpse to sign your paperwork? Stick the pen in his hand and kick it.

Cool (about your whole medical career history).

Like "corn chips, anyone" in response to gross Fritos-resembling toenails. I'm an EMT (seriously considering starting paramedic school this fall), a lot of what I do is transporting patients discharged from the hospital to nursing homes, and most of them have corn-chipp-y toenails. My example was considerably week, I think I just wanted to mention the prostitute with the glue gun thing , it was probably the funniest thing I've run into so far. It topped the port-a-potty fire we went to earlier that afternoon.

Eeeeewwwww!!


DOUBLE EEEEEWWWW!!!!

I'm....gonna go....throw up....now...... (and toss out the Campbell's soup and Fritos i have in the pantry!)

yeah, ew, can we change the subget, maybe something related to goren and eames. or not, whatever.

Yeah, back to the real topic (although, Shark, did you have a little fun grossing people out? I did!)

Still looking for opinions on:

1) Eames with Peter/someone else;
2) Goren's emotional isolation vs. his emotional need for Eames (I think just about everyone agrees this is part of their relationship?)
3) Eames' "uncharacteristic" (or was it?) response to "My mom wants to meet you..."

Loving all the chatter so far!

QUOTE (TiberRiver @ Jun 14 2007, 04:48 AM)

Yeah, back to the real topic (although, Shark, did you have a little fun grossing people out? I did!)

Still looking for opinions on:

1) Eames with Peter/someone else;
2) Goren's emotional isolation vs. his emotional need for Eames (I think just about everyone agrees this is part of their relationship?)
3) Eames' "uncharacteristic" (or was it?) response to "My mom wants to meet you..."

Loving all the chatter so far!

Hi everyone, I'm a newbie here! (haven't gotten around to posting in the newbie thread yet)




Firstly, I appologise for the length of my response, you are just all so intelligent here and coming up with such thought provoking comments I just felt compelled to respond.

I've lurked a bit and i must say TiberRiver, it's as if you got in my head or something, I totally agree with everything you've said on pretty much everything..especially re. G/E- I'm not a shipper either but I do like the idea of them having a special bond that's very complex and I enjoy seeing 'shippy' moments but not in a romantic way.

After reading your insightful initial comments (the first long one you posted, which i didn't think was long at all! it was very succinct for a topic like G/E where one could easy go on forever! haha)
I went back and saw Silencer again and realised just how revealing it was in terms of the G/E relationship.

So my thoughts on the 3 points you brought up,

1) Eames with Peter/Someone else
The first time i saw the ep, I thought it seemed like Peter was more into Eames than she was into him.
BUT upon seeing it again, it was clear there was a level of interest coming from Eames too. When they first met and intro-ed themselves, Eames seemed to give Peter an appreciative once-over. Eames spent alot of time with him and was totally 'Peter this 'and 'Peter that ' in the ep.

I was very taken a back by the way Eames said 'Don't put me in the middle' to Goren. To me it was in stark contrast with the way Eames would have backed Goren up in the past. They have on many occasions blurred the boundaries of ethics and privacy (by tricking suspects) in order to get confessions. Even if Eames agreed with Peter on the issue of privacy at the ice rink, the expected Eames behaviour would be to back Goren up out of the professional comaderie between partners if nothing else. It was almost out of character that she didn't and that scene really shows the rift that has developed between them over the course of s6, and perhaps, Eames' potential soft-spot for Peter.

Then we are given a clue as to the reasons for Eame's behaviour:

Eames (re. deaf skaters): "they made up quickly."
Peter: "they kinda have to in their world....you wanna be all wrapped up and safe inside, not shut out"

Eames gave SUCH a thoughtful look, I thought she must have been thinking of Goren shutting her out, and she's hurt by that. It seemed to me that Eames and Peter can talk quite candidly with each other about personal/difficult issues even though they just met. The same ease isn't there with G/E because there's always so much more emotional baggage on Goren's side.

Therefore, it's not surprising if Eame's does find someone like Peter as an appealing alternative to spend time with than Goren. She only has so much to give, considering she herself must be battling a lot of demons post Blindspot.

I am however, conflicted as to whether I'd like it if Eames got a love interest. On the one hand, she deserves someone who's good for her, which I don't think Goren is at this point in time with so much of his own issues to deal with. On the other hand....(bringing me to your next point)

2. Goren's emotional isolation vs. his emotional need for Eames

Goren needs her. Now more than ever. And of all people, Eames should know that. She should know Goren depends on her to always be there, to always understand, to always support without question, without asking more from him than he is ready to give, without pushing him to open up. Even fighting through her own pain, even if Goren can't communicate to her this need, she should know how much it would hurt him if she decided to move on and focus on someone else at a time when he is so utterly alone and vulnerable.

Goren says to Tommy: "you weren't afraid malia would abandon you?..even though your hearing sister abandoned you? First chance she got?"

After that duplicate chair scene, it's clear that for Goren, Eames running off with Peter the first change she had was a sign of abandoment.
It's just so heartbreaking.

3. Eames' "uncharacteristic" (or was it?) response to "My mom wants to meet you..."

I’m not sure her reaction was entirely uncharacteristic, in that I don’t think she would have reacted in a mushy supportive way, but it wasn’t characteristic either.

I think a more characteristic comment would be if she made a joke, either saying she wouldn’t miss it for the world, or that she’d be too scared to. But by saying nothing, she made an already sensitive/awkward moment even worse. It was a big step for Goren to even reveal that to her, and she just left him hanging.
Maybe Eames was embarrassed, but isn’t her way usual of dealing with things through humour and sarcasm?




One LAST thing:


What does everyone think about the way, maybe subconsciously, Goren perpetuated the misunderstanding regarding the true nature of his relationship with Alex by twice refusing to define who Eames really is to him?

In Brothers Keeper, he could EASILY have said to Frank: no she’s my work partner. But instead he said:’ not that kind of partner’…very softly, as though he enjoyed the implication that maybe she was something more.

Also on the phone with his mum, he begins to say just who Eames really is, but stops mid-sentence and instead says Frank misunderstood.

i cant think of a reason the writers would want to do that, except to make the shippers happy. as for Goren (and i dont have much faith the writers are thinking this part through) he doesnt think his mom will listen anyways, and his brother, he feels like if his brother has a girlfriend he should. he thinks thats just one more thing his mom will like about his brother...?

and TiberRiver, i think we found you a twin.

welcome to the board chilli

Yes, definitely welcome to the board! I guess I do have a twin. How nice!

One thing you wrote, CI, that I think is absolutely correct: i don't think the writers are really planning this out at all! I'm not even sure we'll have the same writers next season, and there could be a sharp discontinuity between the end of S6 and the beginning S7 (a topic which belongs on the Season 7 thread).

I agree (obviously) with chilli about Eames' response to Goren at the ice rink; and to Peter's obviously on-target comment about being shut out. It's possible that Peter's cheery, open personality, his willingness to chat about himself without a lot of "angsty baggage" and possibly the thought that "I won't have to face him again if I don't want to" may have been such a sharp contrast to the pain she and Bobby have been through all season, that it never even occured to her that going out with Peter after the ice skating would have any effect on her partner.

I don't think it consciously occured to Bobby, either, until he was sitting alone at his desk, knowing she was sharing personal time with someone else. I don't think he felt she was moving "on" so much as "backing away" from him. Distancing herself.

Maybe her comment at the rink was a subconcious eruption of her irritation with all that Bobby's "putting her on the spot" question brought to a head; the kidnapping, the cancer, Wiznewski's suicide, the distance between them, the self-imposed isolation that Bobby has wrapped around himself... Maybe it was one of those moments we all have when we say something sharp, not intending to, but because that person or that question just hits us the wrong way at a time that's already stressful. (And Bobby didn't really react to it, either... Maybe he missed it?)

And I could stretch her reaction to "my mom wants to meet you..." and give her a fair amount of leeway if the writers had bothered to show any kind of explanatory follow-up: "I'm not comfortable with that..." (sorry, that wouldn't fly. The woman is dying and this is about the most personal request Bobby has ever made of her!) or something! Maybe humor, but not sarcasm, either. That would be too cruel. VDO gave us a graphic picture of what that one moment cost Goren; he could have hung up the phone, let the subject drop, never mention it to her... He decided to reach out, trust her. Surely he expected something!

And I wouldn't put it beyond the scope of their complex relationship for Bobby -- faced twice with the misunderstanding of their relationship; faced with having almost lost her; faced with his awareness of his need for her, and probably also of the fact that he blew that in TWAH; and then faced with his loneliness when she's off with Peter -- to not be entirely certain how he feels about her right now.

Given what little we know of his romantic relationships in the past (and the kind of women who manage to get under his skin), I would be surprised if Bobby Goren has ever actually known what it is to be "in love" with someone.

Would he confuse need for love? Does he know the difference between need and love? As a child, his basic psychological needs (for safety, for approval, for affirmation of himself as a person of value) were not met (by his own admissions). So what would real love even feel like to him?

As for Eames having a love interest: yes, I think she deserves one. No, Bobby would be a distaster for her right now; he's far too needy for there to develop a healthy relationship between them (that's not taking into consideration that it would really screw up the show, IMHO!). Maybe three years ago, when they were really in sync with each other, his life was pretty stable, she hadn't gotten pregnant yet... That might have been a moment in his life when he could have discovered love; but not now. Now he's raw and exposed and torn apart.

He needs. I don't think he has anything left to give right now.

Just one more possible interpretation to mull over. Whatcha'll think???

Oh, and one other thing: who watches his mother die by inches for that long and hasn't made funeral arrangments????? Have I already harped on this one?

And yeah, Ross asks Eames about it, expecting her to know (and she does), but I think Bobby would have probably let her know he was at the point of deathwatch, too; couldn't she have spared the time to be there?

And I'm still bothered by the fact that she didn't accompany him to the prison that last time. Trust him? Sure. But knowing what he was expecting to find out, how tormented he was? Couldn't she have taken the keys and said, "I'll drive"? She didn't have to come into the room; let him face the demons alone; heroes have to do that. But where was she when he came out? Filling out paperwork at her desk? Doesn't scan!!!

(I know... "B*tch, b*tch, b*tch..." Sorry. I really loved that final ep, actually...)

So: Poor writing? Or a deliberate shift in the relationship now?

Hmmm... I'm trying to reply to CILover's last post.

"What shift in relationship?"

It seems as though they are distancing Goren and Eames, and at the same time providing external tensions to push them together. I don't know, it could just be my interpretation...

I like what you said about Eames' reaction to the "meet the mom" thing. It makes sense to me...

Always.




Peter who?

the guy in scilencer that was the interpreter.

re tiber: I though they were fixing the relationship in Endgame. He told her everything and the "your just going to have to trust me eames" filling in the distance.

in silencer though, it seems they were doing that. by external tension, do you mean Gorens mom? or peter?

CIlover and TiberRiver,

Thanks for the welcome!


CIlover: I like your take on Eame's reaction to 'meeting mom'. I don't think Eames intended to leave Goren hanging, she did smile..she was prolly flattered and thought it was interesting..( she might have frowned coz the sun was in her eye. haha). Still, I think it would have made more sense if she said something..anything. Maybe here, the writers didn't actually know what she should have said (coz they wanted to keep it extra ambiguous shipperwise), they opted for silence which left us hanging as well. And because I felt dissatisified, I took it out on Eames.

Interesting that you pointed out Goren's reluctance to define who Eames is could partly be due to wanting his mother's approval/feeling pressured that he should have someone. I hadn't considered that at all, but it makes perfect sense.

My take is that
1. Goren is quite confused as to who Eames is to him, not because he might have romantic/sexual feelings for her (at least I'd like to think not) but more because he realises how big a role she plays in his life. She's most likely the only woman actively a part of his life besides his mother at this particular point in his life, and definitely the only woman he trusts to be vulnerable to if he were to ever let his guard down. Because of that, he can't bring himself to say she's just a work partner.

2. The writers are being cheeky and messing with shippers AND non-shippers. Everything can be interpreted in different ways, depending on what we'd like to think for ourselves. Even with Peter, the fact that Eames dismissively and firmly told Ross that he 'didn't interrupt anything' between Peter and her in Silencer..and when they did the closeup of her face when she agreed with Ross that Peter was a nice guy..she didn't look smitten or interested to me. So shippers could even say said that Peter made her realise that Goren is the person she wants to be with, especially since they DID patch things up Endgame.

TiberRiver:

I think the writers where exploring the breakdown in the G/E relationship, which is starting to be amended. I don't think it's bad writing that made Eames appear out of character. I think it's just exploring their changing/worsening relationship. And the apparent shift in their relationship won't a permanent one (it's more a detour than a shift), provided s7 continue with the mending process started in Endgame. (at least i hope.)

Although now that you and CIlover point it out, I do fear s7 may be disjointed. They very possibly won't ever mention Peter again, and G/E might magically go back to 'normal' when s7 starts (that won't be so bad tho, I miss the good-old team)

But I also want to give the writers more credit. MUCH of the writing in s6 has been atrocious, particularly the quality of the crime stories- clearly, they're just running out of ideas. But it doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing in terms of the inter-character relationship department. I think CI fans in general have been pretty happy with the way the personal story arc has been executed last season, and it's because writers have a very good grasp on the characters and the nature of G/E's relationship and where to draw the line.

In TWAH, in addition to what you mentioned, Goren was in the middle of an 'i'm-angry-and-i-don't-give-a-damn-walkoff'. Eames calling after him prolly reminded him that he does care, and there may be a bit of guilt in that, and that makes a person even more angry and less likely to talk. (don't get in between a person and their angry walkoff! lolz) He'd just had enough, and she was angry too, so the shutting out was a natural biproduct of all the emotions flying around.
Then afterwards, I think they just never properly made up and thus started the break down.


As for 'couples therapy', very interesting!! Totally makes sense and would be very helpful for them. But I have a very hard time imagining that scenario. haha. It's strange enough to think of Goren being shrinked (though he needs it)-he'd respect the process but he'd prolly he'd shrink the shrink. Eames I imagine won't be too forth-coming, she didn't seem like she was embracing the process at the beginning of Siren Call. (but maybe she was just putting up the strong front for Goren)

Lastly (and OT-ly): you're a novelist? ( not just novelist in terms of fanfiction but professional writer)? If so, lucky you got that as excuse. I'm a commerce/law student (in Australia), guess that makes me in need of a life in your books then? HMPH...i'll have you know, i have plenty of life worshiping VDO thank u very much! =P

Okay, all, thanks for chatting with me. Can't wait for more!!!! This is really fun for me!

aaww..your welcome. the feeling is likewise. =)

Ah, chilli, I knew I was going to like you! Australian, huh? So, did you vote to kill Nicole???

haha..it's good to know I'm liked. Nicole's accent is bizzare tho, it's not the least bit Australian,much more british, and then they said the thing about it being South African? (did Goren ever say what he thought Nicole's accent was?). I didn't get to vote (didn't see that ep when it first came out, but i WOULD have voted to kill her tho =). I think the whole thing turned into a bit of a farce the more times they brought her back. But I do like what Nicole brings to CI..very gripping stuff. Also i'm throwing it out there, the sheer intensity of her interrogation sessions with Goren was so...raw and explosive and confronting...i held my breath the whole time and I have to admit I felt it was quite sexual-tension-esque. (ducks from pplz throwing objects).

But the "good old team" will never return: a new good team could take it's place, but, as Bobby once said to Nicole, "too much damage has been done" for them to ever be as they were in the first three seasons.

I didn't word my sentence right. I don't wanna see G/E romantically involved, but I realise that's different to Goren one-sidedly feeling something which may confuse him. I suppose THAT in itself I don't mind that much like you, it does make for interesting character inner-conflict. To think of him having unrequited feelings is very in-line with his character, and if he did, he most likely won't ever act on it. (thinking of them two having mutual sexual feelings/acting out those feelings seriously disturbs the crap out of me, like trying to think of your parents having sex. YICK)
But Goren's tortured enough and needy enough of Eames, it seems cruel...I rather him not be unrequited at any point. *sighz*

As for the 'good-old-team', I think Goren won't ever be the same as he was in s1 and 2. But I think the G/E relationship can bounce back from the events of s6. The damage to their relationship isn't caused by any unforgiveable betrayal, it's just a lapse in communication coz both parties are dealing with alot of difficult issues. If Goren continues with letting Eames in like in Endgame, won't they only get closer, and things might even be better between them? Am I being overly optimistic?
I was re-watching Prisoner. The bit where they walked into the Warden's office and Eames teased him about the fact that not everyone is into showing off...that's the type of light-hearted dynamic I want back. And that was in s5 when Goren has mellowed out from the first few seasons.

Oh, now here I disagree (good thing, or we were going to run out of things to discuss! LOL). We know Bobby got sent to the school shrink in high school. He's dealt with shrinks for his mother for decades, and in all that, somewhere along the line, one of them may well have tried to help him, too, though I don't see him ever going to a "support group" for anything.

So I think Bobby would not be uncomfortable talking to a shrink (though you're right, as clever and manipulative as he is, he probably would try to shrink th eshrunk). But I think talking about his relationship with Eames, and things like his greater protectiveness of her (which I think would quickly begin to drive her up the wall!) and maybe his reaction to knowing she was kidnapped, and (my personal fave, though never expressly brought up) his guilt over not having been the one to save her: I don't think he'd be able to bring himself to say any of that in front of Eames at all!

I just don't see either of them revealing how they feel to each other in such an explicit way..but then again,I have no idea how couple therapy actually works. I'd imagine most people would find it hard to be that forth-right in that situation..so really, i'm not the best person to comment.

I really LOVED the fact that Eames rescued herself. Really kudos to the writers for that. I admit I would have cringed a lil if Goren rescued her. One of the things I love about the show is that it portrays Eames as a 'great cop who happens to be a woman' as opposed to a 'woman cop'. At least that's my take. It would have been hypocritical if at the end of the day, when push came to shove, they reduce her to the damsel in distress and hero Goren comes to her rescue.
That's totally separate from Goren feeling guilty..coz that's not a gender thing. He must have felt like he failed her, on so many accounts. (coz Jo and Declan where people in his life, coz his personal judgement in the case was clouded before and after the abduction etc).

I kinda felt that when he said 'i'm sorry' at the end of Blindspot, it was a pretty adequate communication of his guilt given the way they usually interact. I was satisfied anyway, didn't think he needed to say anything more coz Eames would have understood. Eames isn't the 'lets talk about my fluffy feelings' type either, so it's their usual "silent understanding and support" thing.
In fact, part of what draws me to the G/E relationship is that a lot of things don't need to be said coz theres that a consistent unquestioned trust between them. It's very different from my personality and my interactions with people.


Lastly, do you have your fanfics on ff.net? if so, please send a link. =)

wow there's alot of great discussion on the relationship of goren and eames


in my opinion their relationship is the most complex and dynamic then benson/stabler (svu) green/cassidy (law and order) and even tom/diana (4400) they seem opposites but really can relate to each other in alot of ways. there's alot of little quirks that the writers throw in to move their relationship forward and I hope we see even more of that in the next season.

Yes, there are a lot of "quirks" VDO added to Goren's character, too: the gnawing on the lower lip, the thing with his ear (kind of cupping it and turning away at emotional moments), probably other things I missed and other people have noticed (anyone?). VDO has done a lot with the character, I think. I wonder how much of the script gets through the first read without him making changes. Have you ever seen the original script pages for the beginning of Siren Call? Not only did the writers have Goren and Eames meet up at the crime scene, but they actually had him call her "Alex". NO WAY!!!! Someone got in there and fixed that. He may refer to her as Alex to a third party, but he never ever calls her that! The day he does: Boy, something big better be at stake! Heehee!

Oh, and glad you're joining the discussion!!

well if it's a thread about goren and eames I have to join in lol


wow calling her alex is quite something, he usually always refers to her as eames. I definetely hope they get even more on a first name basis next season!

No, he hasn't ever called her Alex. It was written that way in the original script for Siren Call, but it got changed before they filmed the ep. He shouldn't call her Alex, IMHO. It would be the equivalent of Spock calling Kirk "Jim". There'd better be a d*mned good reason: maybe screaming for her if he thinks she's in a burning building, something like that. It would signal a significant change in the relationship.

Alex, of course, always calls him "Bobby", though she frequently refers to him as "Goren". But she is the senior partner, and I can't help but wonder if Goren only called her "Eames" at the beginning to maintain the professional relationship: and maybe he will not now cross what could be an emotional line for him.

A thought...

I always wondered why he called her eames and you make a great point, because she is the senior partner, like a superior officer or something. that would be quite a line for goren to cross over to start calling her alex!


oh and I love your avatar picture by the way!

Thank you!