TPFTF
Aug 28 2006, 10:19 AM
We can all agree that there are two sides to the coin in this series. The basic good vs evil. Most of us assumed that the 4400 were sent to save humanity and Izzy was sent to stop the 4400. What if Mathew knew this and wasn't inherently evil? What if Mathew knew the future of the 4400 and wanted Izzy to think she had to destroy them? Mathew told Izzy she was supposed to do terrible things. Why did most people imply that meant hurting innocent people? Let's think about this. Izzy can't die. What better person would there be to stop the 4400 than someone that can't die? Perhaps Jordan knows the evil future of the 4400 and this is why he's giving promicin out to the public. All the 4400's have "evil" abilities. Yes, even Shawn. Shawn has the ability to heal/cure and even prevent death. His ability will come in handy when the 4400 realize they are meant to destroy the world and injuries/fatalities within the 4400 begin.
Most people assume that the 4400 are good and Izzy is evil. While the writers wanted you to think that, it doesn't add up. If this were true, then this season's ender was rather dull. When good triumps over evil, there is no more story. Izzy has no more powers and Rylands group is in shambles. I have to really wonder if my theories are correct and in the season 3 ender, evil triumped over good and we just don't know it yet. If this is true, it will keep the story alive alot longer than the opposite.
Thoughts?
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 10:37 AM
I think the PFTF are evil and the only catastrophe is they weren't getting their own way. I think they took Jordan and subjected him to torture-mental torture from someone with an Alana type power, showing him a future of misery so he would take any steps to prevent it. He looked sick enough when he first got back to have gone through anything. I think Isabelle was sent by the PFTF but Matthew was also used by them (or he is one of them-take your pick) to make sure Isabelle would turn out evil. I think Isabelle can be redeemed and I believe Richard will try.
LoveThe4400
Aug 28 2006, 10:42 AM
I agree RockingMule. I think that people are jumping to conclusions by writing Isabelle off as the bad guy and Jordan as the good guy. There is a lot more to this than what we know. I am not convinced that Jordan is the good guy. I think that he is like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Again we only have his word for what he saw and what was to happen to the future. Just like we only have Matthew's word as to the destiny of Isabelle.
TPFTF
Aug 28 2006, 10:45 AM
Again, if Izzy is saved from "evil", you still have a one sided story. Who would be the "evil" one?
I do have to believe that Izzy was good at first and Mathew made her believe she was evil. We heard all along that Izzy didn't want to do bad things. I think her character was forced into doing the things she has been recently.
I have made another post where I think Mathew will return to play the evil(good) side. I believe that Izzy, with the help of Richard, will become "good" again and TPFTF will bring Mathew back to try and stop the 4400.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 10:50 AM
I think Jordan is definitely the good guy, and I think Isabelle could be turned back to the good side. Here's a thought-what would the PFTF do if Jordan and Isabelle joined forces? If they sat down, compared notes, realized how shamelessly they'd been manipulated, and decided to work together for the future? Personally I think the PFTF tortured Jordan, using someone with an Alana-type power to show him a horrific future he would do anything to avoid, and I think they had Matthew work on Isabelle to convince her she had to eliminate the 4400. I think the only real catastrophe in the future is some of the PFTF weren't getting their own way.
loopoo
Aug 28 2006, 11:56 AM
i havent liked isabelle or the way they set up her character as evil in this, thing is aside from her jealousy over her sister as a baby, she did protect her parents, and when she dealt with collier he wasnt a saint. But most importantly, she healed all the 4400 when they were ill with promycin drawn from her!! now if she was really evil, given her powers, wouldnt she have not allowed them to do this? I cant believe she all of a sudden grew up, then is told she needs to destroy the very people she saved. oh well, just a thought.. secondly, i really hope the ben diana thing is no more next season i actually leave the room to get a snack when their scenes are on together)
Jcor66
Aug 28 2006, 12:02 PM
Quote:
i havent liked isabelle or the way they set up her character as evil in this, thing is aside from her jealousy over her sister as a baby, she did protect her parents, and when she dealt with collier he wasnt a saint. But most importantly, she healed all the 4400 when they were ill with promycin drawn from her!! now if she was really evil, given her powers, wouldnt she have not allowed them to do this? I cant believe she all of a sudden grew up, then is told she needs to destroy the very people she saved. oh well, just a thought.. secondly, i really hope the ben diana thing is no more next season i actually leave the room to get a snack when their scenes are on together)
Totally agree, the whole ben diana thing is a waste of space. Do you notice that evrytime they kiss Diana has her eyes open and has a look on her face of "what is he doing this is akward, what should i make for dinner" its so wooden and i can only believe that it is bad acting on her part. And oh yeah Isabelle may be "evil" or turned back to "good" but by her actions regardless of what led up to them are evil, torturing,killing, attempting to kill children, whatever side she is supposed to be on for the future her actions are wrong in the present.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 12:10 PM
Hi, this is my first time posting here. I've been reading these boards for a while and decided it was time to voice my opinion.
First off, I've never thought Isabelle was really bad, she still has a child's mentality and was never raised properly to be able to overcome that. When she does seem evil, it's just the kid inside her throwing a temper tantrum because she's not getting her own way.
As for Jordan, I'm not convinced that he is the good guy. I don't buy into all this Messiah/second coming stuff some people are talking about. If he was a Messiah, he would have been more forgiving of Isabelle and not just turned her away like he did. Jesus would never have turned anyone away like that! Also, he was talking about testing Shawn's loyalty, but maybe if he would be honest with the people who are supposed to trust in him, then they would be more loyal to him. He's been lying to everyone including Shawn and Richard who are the closest to him and should be able to trust him. If he can't even be honest with them, then how is anyone supposed to believe him? How do we even know he's telling the truth about the future? He's apparently just telling everyone what he thinks they want to hear.
I'm really not sure what to think of Jordan yet, but I definitely don't trust him.
I have lots more theories on other parts of the show too, but I'll go into them later.
amerirish
Aug 28 2006, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Do you notice that evrytime they kiss Diana has her eyes open and has a look on her face of "what is he doing this is akward, what should i make for dinner" its so wooden[quote]
LMAO - that's funny
winnie3_14
Aug 28 2006, 12:28 PM
I WAS UNSURE ABOUT ISABELLE UNTILL SHE WENT TO THE SCHOOL TO KILL THE KIDS. THAT IS JUST PURE EVIL. THERE IS NOTHING CHILDISH OR JEALOUSY RELATED IN KILLING CHILDREN WHO CANT PROTECT THEMSELVES AGAINST SOME ONE AS STRONG AS SHE WAS
TPFTF
Aug 28 2006, 12:31 PM
Who said she was there to actually kill the kids? Besides, if Izzy was placed here to stop the 4400, why shouldn't she kill them? It sounds evil to say, but if my theory is correct, she's there to stop the evil 4400 by any means.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 12:41 PM
Take a deep breath and make up your mind. Either Isabelle was there to kill the evil 4400 kids or she wasn't. Either way it is an evil action to kill helpless children-that doesn't mean Isabelle is evil, she was stopped from going through with it and she might have second thoughts now she is powerless herself, but it was a evil thing to do. Once more-torturing and killing little children is evil. I suggest you go rent The Boys From Brazil, which covers the issue of possible evil in children thoroughly.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 12:47 PM
Isabelle was LYING to Jordan when she said she was trying to do good, Marcofan. When she said that, she was still collaborating with Dennis Ryland and I think Jordan knew it. Do you honestly think even Jesus would forgive a person who said they were sorry with their mouth, but didn't mean it in their heart? I don't believe Jordan is a Messiah, but I do think he is a good man. All through history good men, even Christ himself, were forced to rebuke and even reject evil-doers. Either Jordan is a very good man who turned away an unrepentant sinner, or he is a very bad man who rejected a genuine petitioner. Either way, at this point Isabelle needed to go-she needed a wakeup call.
It's not like she didn't still have choices. She could have gone to a hotel, called her father, tried to show by her actions day by day that she was no longer out to kill the 4400. Did Jordan send a limo to take her to Ryland? Did he send Ryland a memo-Here she is, Dennis. No. Isabelle freely chose to go to Ryland long before Jordan came back-myself, I think it's Matthew's fault. Isabelle was trying to find her path when he came along and manipulated her to go bad. She still had choices and she chose...poorly. Come to that, she has a choice now. Her blog doesn't sound encouraging, but in her helpless state Richard will be able to talk some sense to her for the first time in her life. Hopefully it will sink in.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 01:49 PM
Quote:
Isabelle was LYING to Jordan when she said she was trying to do good, Marcofan. When she said that, she was still collaborating with Dennis Ryland and I think Jordan knew it. Do you honestly think even Jesus would forgive a person who said they were sorry with their mouth, but didn't mean it in their heart? I don't believe Jordan is a Messiah, but I do think he is a good man. All through history good men, even Christ himself, were forced to rebuke and even reject evil-doers. Either Jordan is a very good man who turned away an unrepentant sinner, or he is a very bad man who rejected a genuine petitioner. Either way, at this point Isabelle needed to go-she needed a wakeup call.
It's not like she didn't still have choices. She could have gone to a hotel, called her father, tried to show by her actions day by day that she was no longer out to kill the 4400. Did Jordan send a limo to take her to Ryland? Did he send Ryland a memo-Here she is, Dennis. No. Isabelle freely chose to go to Ryland long before Jordan came back-myself, I think it's Matthew's fault. Isabelle was trying to find her path when he came along and manipulated her to go bad. She still had choices and she chose...poorly. Come to that, she has a choice now. Her blog doesn't sound encouraging, but in her helpless state Richard will be able to talk some sense to her for the first time in her life. Hopefully it will sink in.
I agree that it was Matthew who made Isabelle the way she became, but I don't believe that she is truly evil. And I don't see why everyone is so convinced she was lying to Jordan when she said she didn't want to do the bad things she was supposedly sent to do. She admitted to him that she had lied when he got shot and she apologized for it. I thought she sounded sincere about it. It was Jordan's rejection that sent her back to Ryland. She felt she didn't have anywhere else to turn. Maybe if Jordan hadn't sent her away, she would have been content to stay and help Jordan and the 4400 instead of joining Ryland against them. She felt betrayed by Jordan and wanted revenge against him personally. I don't believe she really wanted to hurt the rest of the 4400 unless they got in her way. The reason she went after the kids was because she was trying to draw Jordan out. We really don't know if she would have hurt the kids or not, maybe she was just gonna threaten them to get Jordan to come to her. And the part about her hurting kids being evil and not child-like, do you even remember being a kid? Kids can be very cruel to each other. That part just proves my point that she is still a child herself. She doesn't really know any better. There are a lot of children who don't care who they hurt if they're not getting their way. It's the parents responsibility to teach them otherwise, but she never had the chance to grow up like a normal kid and be taught right from wrong. But like you said, now that she has losther powers, maybe Richard will have the chance to teach her what he couldn't before.
As for Jordan, it will take a lot of convincing to make me believe he is good. He has been too decietful and dishonest, even to his closest allies, to be the good guy. If he was really trying to do what he says, he wouldn't have to lie to get people to help him.
I have a long drawnout argument on this theory, but I'm at work right now, so that will have to wait til later when I have more time.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 01:53 PM
You say we don't know if Isabelle would really have hurt the kids, Marcofan. I think the smoking bodies she left in her wake are a good indicator of what she had in mind for the kids. One question-if you really think she's so wonderful, would you care to risk your own child in her vicinity? I don't believe there's a single fan of Isabelle's that wouldn't run screaming for their lives if they saw her coming.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 02:10 PM
First off, I never said I thought she was wonderful. She can be a mean *****. But I am just not convinced that she is totally evil and unredeemable. Maybe she was planning on hurting the kids in the classroom, noone knows for sure what would have happened if she wasn't stopped. And I never said I wouldn't be afraid of her. All I'm trying to say is that I don't think she can't change and I don't think she is totally evil, she just doesn't know her place yet. She was being told what she was supposed to do by Matthew, but she genuinely did want to change that "destiny" by marrying Shawn.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 02:17 PM
Why, I've said right along I don't believe Isabelle is totally evil. I have also said right along that I believe she can be reformed. What I believe, based on her killing people in cold blood, is that at this point in her life Isabelle is bad. I'm not interested in "what might have been." I like intelligent discussion based on actual evidence and plausible theories, not moonshine and wishful thinking. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, but I don't respect the "Isabelle is really a good person!" opinion. There isn't a single shred of evidence to support it and there is a ton of evidence, direct and circumstantial, against it. I admire the ability to rise superior to reason as much as the next person-I just don't think a thoughtful discussion is the place to cultivate it.
Jcor66
Aug 28 2006, 02:19 PM
Quote:
First off, I never said I thought she was wonderful. She can be a mean *****. But I am just not convinced that she is totally evil and unredeemable. Maybe she was planning on hurting the kids in the classroom, noone knows for sure what would have happened if she wasn't stopped. And I never said I wouldn't be afraid of her. All I'm trying to say is that I don't think she can't change and I don't think she is totally evil, she just doesn't know her place yet. She was being told what she was supposed to do by Matthew, but she genuinely did want to change that "destiny" by marrying Shawn.
I dont think anyone is irredeemable, all things are possible after all. But to say Isahell was trying to change her "destiny" (ie evilness) by marrying shawn is not a good reason, when she was forcing him to do it by threats to his loved ones. Just because someone commits an action for a good reason doesnt justify any action they may take, example you have the opportunity to kill a mass murderer before they ever kill anyone themselves. Sounds great right? Guess what it would still be murder and punishable and immoral.(by many peoples arguments) Isahell is what she is and I dont understand all the people who just love her feeling they have to paint her as good, If you like her fine, you are entiteled to, but to try and justify her as a good person or not bad/evil is silly.
TracyCheyanne
Aug 28 2006, 02:23 PM
Exactly Loo, IF Isabel was brought back to stop the 4400 why didn't she stay with her mother (Lily) in the cabin when the 4400 were dying from the promisin inhibitor instead of making Lily have visions of killing her first husband to make her return to the hideout of the 4400 to save them with her Promisin? Isabel WANTED to go back to save the 4400. Either the writers thought we forgot about this OR Isabel is not really against the 4400.
Jcor66
Aug 28 2006, 02:31 PM
I think everyone is forgetting that evil doesnt have to be predictable, in fact one of its weapons is misdirection. Also I think people on this board have different definitions of evil and it is causing alot of confusion. My definition,the one i am applying to isahell is that she has committed crimes,killed,tortured, and been unrestrained by any moral,legal, or ethical considerations, even evil people will hesitate to kill their family most times. I guess i should use the word BAD instead of EVIL, too much confusion, so from here on out I consider isahell BAD, which can be construed as evil but we will leave that up to the philosophers
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 02:39 PM
"Isahell is what she is and I dont understand all the people who just love her feeling they have to paint her as good, If you like her fine, you are entiteled to, but to try and justify her as a good person or not bad/evil is silly."
Beautiful, Jcor! I agree with your definition of evil, but I do make the distinction between bad and evil. It's a simple distinction in my mind-bad is redeemable. Evil is not. I think Isabelle is only bad at this point because I believe she might have a shot at redeeming herself. She still has choices-it would be a terrible struggle for her and I don't think she can ever atone for what she has done, but I do believe she might be able to change her path if she really tried. 'Course she might not want to try-according to the Isabellites she's doing just fine the way she is. That's the biggest obstacle-she needs to see she is bad and want to change. That's always the hardest-that first step of admitting the problem. Ironically her fans don't want her to have that opportunity-it's certainly a conundrum!
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Why, I've said right along I don't believe Isabelle is totally evil. I have also said right along that I believe she can be reformed. What I believe, based on her killing people in cold blood, is that at this point in her life Isabelle is bad. I'm not interested in "what might have been." I like intelligent discussion based on actual evidence and plausible theories, not moonshine and wishful thinking. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, but I don't respect the "Isabelle is really a good person!" opinion. There isn't a single shred of evidence to support it and there is a ton of evidence, direct and circumstantial, against it. I admire the ability to rise superior to reason as much as the next person-I just don't think a thoughtful discussion is the place to cultivate it.
I never said anything about Isabelle "really being a good person". I don't know where you guys are getting this from. All I said is that I don't think she is totally evil, and I believe it has been decided that most of us agree on this.
I have stated my opinions on this subject enough, I don't worship Isabelle and I don't even agree with most of what she has done. I just don't see her as evil. That's all I was trying to say all along.
Everyone has been going on about Isabelle, but noone has comented on my opinion on Jordan. I would like to hear some more opinions on what I said earlier about Jordan's lying and decieving everyone. Everyone seems so convinced he is the good guy, what are your justifications for his actions?
loopoo
Aug 28 2006, 03:00 PM
i think trace got what i meant in a previous post) jury is stil out on what collier is up to for me, i just dont understand why isabelle would save all the 4400s with her promycin, let alone have them get their abilities back and then in season three be on a mission to stop them all? i do remember in season 1 i think too a reference maia made to her being a savior so why the sudden irrational change in her direction has me confused ))
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 03:02 PM
Marco, I don't justify Jordan's actions-I think since he got back he has made some poor decisions and I think he is misguided. My reasons for believing Jordan is good are as follows:
1. People love Jordan. He has inspired warmth and affection in people from all over the world-4400 and non 4400 alike.
2. Jordan forgave Kyle. It can't be easy to meet with the person who shot you, and to forgive them. Heck, they made a TV special out of this subject when the pope met the man who shot him. Forgiving someone who tried to kill you is a sublime act.
3. Jordan didn't know about Gary Navarro's ability when he first met him, but although he thought to himself he couldn't use Navarro, he didn't throw him out. He set him up with living quarters at the center.
4. Jordan didn't want to let Richard and Lily go and he tried to stop them but once they were gone he didn't try to bring them back. He sat back and kept a eye on them and when Richard was in real trouble, Jordan showed up and offered to help.
4. Jordan kept his word to Tom. He didn't have to help free Kyle-what could Tom have done if Jordan broke his promise? Think badly of him? Tom already thinks badly of Jordan and he doesn't trust him a inch. Jordan knew all that and he knew Tom couldn't do a thing to make him keep his word, but he did. He kept his promise and got Kyle freed.
Do you just not like Jordan? If that's the case just say so! It's your perogative not to like him but trying to prove he's bad with no evidence is not the way to get people to take what you say seriously.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 03:33 PM
You are apparently mis-reading my posts, Rockingmule. I never said I don't like Collier. I never said he was bad. In fact, I like the actor Billy Campbell a lot. I just don't trust the character Jordan Collier.
You are right about some of the things he has done that were good. I never tried to prove that he was bad, if you read my first post, I said I'm not sure about him yet. I never said I thought he was bad, but I'm not yet convinced that he is good either. I'm with Loopoo on this, the jury is still out on Jordan for me.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 03:39 PM
Well, you asked for my reasons on believing Jordan is good, Marcofan. I have tried to address the evidence as I see it and to draw reasonable inferences. I believe I have made several logical points, but I agree with you that Jordan might not be all he seems. I only asked if you didn't like him because the tone of your posts led me in that direction. If I am mistaken, I withdraw the assumption. Do you have any comments on the post you asked for? I did go to some trouble over it.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 04:00 PM
Ok, Rockingmule, since you did go through the trouble of making all those points as to why Jordan is good, here's my counterpoints. Please don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to bash Jordan or anything, like I said, I'm still not sure about him.
1. Yes, he has inspired people, but so do cult leaders. I'm not saying that is what he is, but he does have that sort of charm that can convince people to follow him. That can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you use it. He does seem to be using it for good, but there are some things he has done that lead me to believe otherwise, like the lies and deceptions he uses to get people to do his bidding.
2. Yes, Jordan forgave Kyle. But he wouldn't forgive Isabelle. He may also have some other use for Kyle (which right now, it does seem that he does) and that would give him a reason to forgive him, or at least say he does.
3.Yes, Jordan accepted Gary Navarro and any other 4400 who came to him seeking refuge. No argument here, that is a good thing.
4.Jordan did try to stop Richard and Lily using force when they tried to leave, and although he didn't directly try to hunt them down and bring them back, he did keep an eye on them and waited for the right moment to get them back.
5.Jordan did keep his word to Tom to get Kyle out, which is good, but also brings me back to #2, he does seem to have some sort of agenda for Kyle.
Like I said earlier, this does not mean I don't like Jordan or that I think he is the bad guy. But these are all just possibilities. I could be totally wrong and Jordan is just a great guy and doesn't have any hidden agendas for anything. Maybe he is just doing what he thinks he needs to do to save the future like he says. I'm just not totally convinced of this yet. We'll just have to wait until next season to find out (hopefully we will find out who the real good guys and bad guys are).
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 04:11 PM
Thanks, Marco. As it happens, Jordan DID forive Isabelle-the writers have gone on record on that point. Read Isabelle's backstory. I do think he should have given her a chance, or at least talked to Shawn and Richard before throwing her out. Since Jordan got back his behavior on some points has been alarming. I REALLY don't like the promicin for the masses idea. I don't care for the way Jordan manipulated Shawn, and I don't think he should have made a decision on Isabelle by himself. After all, he was in pretty bad shape when he first showed up-Marco said his writing looked like he was sick and I can believe that. It's no mean feat for a man as big as Billy Campbell to portray weakness and vulnerability that effectively. Anyway, I think Jordan might still be somewhat off-balance or unbalanced. I think the PFTF tortured him and he shouldn't be making decisions all by himself-Richard and Shawn have showed him a lot of loyalty and I don't think he showed enough trust in return.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 04:24 PM
I think we're on the same page now, Rockingmule. I totally agree with everything you just said. I do seem to recall Jordan telling Isabelle that he forgave her or that it was alright, it worked out for the best, or something like that. But you're right in that he should have had more trust in Shawn and Richard. That was the one thing that bothered me the most about him. So I think I will wait until at least next season to pass any kind of judgement on Jordan Collier, for good or bad. But whether he turns out to be good or bad, I still enjoy watching his character.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 04:42 PM
Whoa folks - am I crazy or is everyone ignoring that Jordan killed maybe a dozen soldiers ans NSA agents with that explosion, people whose oath was to protect and serve citizens of the USA. I think that qualifies Jordan as a terrorist at best a murderer and an enemy to an elected government of the USA.
Also thinks on this - If you want to create havoc in a society, you go to the worst side of town, where the bums, the poor with a chip on their shoulders, the insane wandering the streets and the lowly criminals reside in order to hide from the law, and you give them promicin that will give them powers.
My question: if this happened in real life in your areas would you still think Jordan is a good guy?
Isabelle was shaken by the murder of those soldiers and NSA agents, remember when she walked out and spoke to Ryland, you could see she was not all there, so she made a bad dicision that immature people with too much power tend to make, stupid and bad, but definitely not evil.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 04:43 PM
I think we've arrived at a understanding, Marco. I agree with you-it really bothers me Jordan didn't trust Richard and Shawn enough to consult them about Isabelle. I do believe Jordan is afraid of Isabelle-not for his own sake (I think Jordan's ability is to block other 4400 abilities) but for others. I also believe Jordan loves Shawn and he's not going to want to forgive Isabelle for what she did to Shawn. Still, he also cares about Richard-I think it would be very hard for Jordan to deny Richard one chance to redeem his daughter. 'Course he could have Tess baby-sit Isabelle. Now that would be something-Isabelle, sit down and write one million times I Will Never Kill Again. Next season is going to be good, don'tcha think? So many possibilities!
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 04:47 PM
Cubex, I live and work in what some people consider the worst part of town. I have friends who won't come within five miles of my house because they're afraid of the drug dealers and the drive-bys. I'm afraid of them too, but there are a lot of good people here too and we work on making our neighborhood a better place to live. I also am not impressed with how people conduct themselves in "good" neighborhoods-I don't see that the idle rich are any better as people then me and my neighbors.
The people Jordan recruited are the people society threw away. Can't have it both ways-can't throw people out like trash, then go to squalling when they try to do something for themselves. As for the soldiers-I don't know that attacking soldiers who are attacking you counts as terrorism. Once again, it comes down to the context. If this was Nazi Germany and Jordan was resisting the Gestapo, he'd be a hero. We don't know what the context is here.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Cubex, I live and work in what some people consider the worst part of town. I have friends who won't come within five miles of my house because they're afraid of the drug dealers and the drive-bys. I'm afraid of them too, but there are a lot of good people here too and we work on making our neighborhood a better place to live. I also am not impressed with how people conduct themselves in "good" neighborhoods.
The people Jordan recruited are the people society threw away. Can't have it both ways-can't throw people out like trash, then go to squalling when they try to do something for themselves. As for the soldiers-I don't know that attacking soldiers who are attacking you counts as terrorism. Once again, it comes down to the context. If this was Nazi Germany and Jordan was resisting the Gestapo, he'd be a hero. We don't know what the context is here.
I am glad you metioned drug dealers and other bad types, now imagine drug dealers able to look at your children and force them to take drugs like Tess's powers, people wanting money able to empty your bank account at will.
(2) It's Seattle USA and the time is now, and the people Jordan killed are our fathers and sons who were order to recover items from a theft.
Also it's expected that 50% of those who take promicin will die.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 05:04 PM
The time is now, Cubex, but The 4400 is not a documentary. It's FICTION. It's a made up United States with a made up government that bears a strong resemblance to the way our country works. There are also some real dissimilarities here. This is a government that arrests people without warrants, holds them without trial, and poisons them in prison. It's a government that locks up a crime victim with no regard for his rights (Jordan) and allows a man guilty of conspiracy to commit murder to walk free and work for a government installation (Ryland). You may think the government should be supported no matter what. I do not. I believe when the government goes wrong, people should raise their voices and cry out for reforms.
I am not impressed with your reasoning about the promicin. Ryland wanted to let people take it in ignorance so that Jordan would be discredited. Jordan insists that people know the risks before they decide. I don't think it's a good idea to hand out the promicin a'tall, but Jordan's is clearly the less culpable attitude. As for Tess' powers, I will not address a point based on "what might be." Tess is equally capable of robbing a bank or ordering a hostage taker to stand down.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 05:14 PM
I am not defending the government, sometimes governments do bad/questionable things to protect its citizens.
Like launching unjust wars, but do we abandon our country because of that?
I just wanted to compare, Isabelle killed NOVA members because they attacked Shawn, someone who hadn't hurt them, she killed Matthew because he wanted her to kill the 4400s.
Jordan Killed all these soldiers because he wanted to kill one person. He has let loose for some poison on the streets.
It makes me wonder who has more blood on their hands and if that's a measure of evil who is more evil.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 05:19 PM
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Cubex, I live and work in what some people consider the worst part of town. I have friends who won't come within five miles of my house because they're afraid of the drug dealers and the drive-bys. I'm afraid of them too, but there are a lot of good people here too and we work on making our neighborhood a better place to live. I also am not impressed with how people conduct themselves in "good" neighborhoods.
The people Jordan recruited are the people society threw away. Can't have it both ways-can't throw people out like trash, then go to squalling when they try to do something for themselves. As for the soldiers-I don't know that attacking soldiers who are attacking you counts as terrorism. Once again, it comes down to the context. If this was Nazi Germany and Jordan was resisting the Gestapo, he'd be a hero. We don't know what the context is here.
I am glad you metioned drug dealers and other bad types, now imagine drug dealers able to look at your children and force them to take drugs like Tess's powers, people wanting money able to empty your bank account at will.
(2) It's Seattle USA and the time is now, and the people Jordan killed are our fathers and sons who were order to recover items from a theft.
Also it's expected that 50% of those who take promicin will die.
I have to kind of agree with you both here. But even Rockingmule said, he doesn't agree with the "promicin to the masses". I also don't agree with that, and if you recall, Ryland had the same plans anyway. He said Collier was just doing what they were gonna do.
But you can't just throw everyone in that bad area into the same category. Not all bums are criminals, and not all criminals are from that "part of town".
Jordan didn't just give the promicin to the people from the bad side of town for their own use. He gave it to them to hand out to anyone who wanted it, which can also be a good thing, giving these people a purpose.
And although Jordan did kill the soldiers and agents in the explosion, he was only doing what he thought was necessary (if he does turn out to be the good guy) to succeed in his mission to save the future. I don't believe he went about it the right way, but a lot of people on this show do "bad things for the greater good". You have to keep in mind that there is an impending war here, and everyone is pretty much doing what they believe they have to do to either prevent the war or get the advantage for their side for when the war does arrive.
I know I may seem to be contradicting myself somewhat in some of my posts, but I am trying to keep an open mind and see things from different points of view. I'm really not sure if anyone is truly evil here, they just have different beliefs and that is what leads to many wars.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 05:27 PM
I'm a gal, Marco! Couldn't you tell-must be time for me to shave my mustache again...
I don't think you've been contradicting yourself-I think it's just when a good discussion gets going, people bring up things that other people haven't thought of. I may have brought a point or two to your attention. You made me realize I need to be a little more clear when I talk about Jordan. It appears to me like as if we have helped each other in our thinking-this is why I love a good debate. I know I miss stuff when I watch a show-I love being able to come here and pick up things from other fans.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 05:31 PM
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Jordan didn't just give the promicin to the people from the bad side of town for their own use. He gave it to them to hand out to anyone who wanted it, which can also be a good thing, giving these people a purpose.
And although Jordan did kill the soldiers and agents in the explosion, he was only doing what he thought was necessary (if he does turn out to be the good guy) to succeed in his mission to save the future. I don't believe he went about it the right way, but a lot of people on this show do "bad things for the greater good". You have to keep in mind that there is an impending war here, and everyone is pretty much doing what they believe they have to do to either prevent the war or get the advantage for their side for when the war does arrive.
I know I may seem to be contradicting myself somewhat in some of my posts, but I am trying to keep an open mind and see things from different points of view. I'm really not sure if anyone is truly evil here, they just have different beliefs and that is what leads to many wars.
For the most part I agree with you, and your conclusion on keeping an open mind, that's my point we still don't know whose future is the one we can live with.
I personally think that the 4400s, Sara and Jordan are working towards the same future, Jordan may not know it. because he is being decieved. The writers seem to have dipped into the bible and borrowed the tale of the AntiChrist, for Jordan's character.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 05:37 PM
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I'm a gal, Marco! Couldn't you tell-must be time for me to shave my mustache again...
I don't think you've been contradicting yourself-I think it's just when a good discussion gets going, people bring up things that other people haven't thought of. I may have brought a point or two to your attention. You made me realize I need to be a little more clear when I talk about Jordan. It appears to me like as if we have helped each other in our thinking-this is why I love a good debate. I know I miss stuff when I watch a show-I love being able to come here and pick up things from other fans.
Sorry about that Rockingmule! I'm a gal too, so there's no more confusion.
Anyway, you're right, I think we have helped each other see some points. That's why I come to these boards, to get other takes on things I may have missed. Thanks for your input!
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 05:39 PM
Cubex, I agree with you on Jordan being deceived. I think the PFTF who created the 4400 are evil and they tortured Jordan with visions of a future he'll do anything to prevent. I think he's so misguided now-handing out promicin to the masses is a good indicator that at least some of his marbles are rolling around on the floor. If only Isabelle and him sat down and compared notes! And I think the writers really dropped the ball about Matthew-I want to know if Jordan really sent him. Jordan seemed to be under the impression Shawn kept the center going and Shawn made the decisions. Why didn't anybody mention Matthew-if anybody is the deus ex machina it's Matthew.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 05:41 PM
You're a gal too, Marco? Maybe I should call you Markie. I could be Rocky-no, that would make you Bullwinkle...
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 05:49 PM
I would like to make a prediction.(Maia like)
Last night season ending left us a clue, at the end Isabelle and shawn was were in ENTAC hospital a wall apart.
I think ENTAC will have their hands full fighting the NOVA group and other newly enhanced people and will have to turn to shawn and Isabelle for help. ENTAC (Tom) will return Isabelle powers with promicin injections and she will wake shawn from his coma, and then the real war will begin.
Richard will fight on Jordan and the 4400 side, Ryland's bosses will be exposed to be one side of the PFTFs, I think the Matthew side.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 05:53 PM
Cubex, I don't see Tom restoring Isabelle's powers unless he's under Tess' thumb. He's just not going to do anything to bring her back-Ryland learned the painful lesson that Isabelle cannot be controlled. Tom knew it all along and feared Isabelle. Ryland though-that man always seems to land on his feet. I think HE might restore Isabelle's powers if he thought he could do it temporary like. Or maybe if he could introduce a poison into her system and he's the only one with the antidote-I could just picture Ryland saying to himself, Oh, this time I will be better prepared. THIS time I will be able to utilize Isabelle effectively! I agree with you-NTAC will have their hands full. Might be time for them to back off a mite and explore the possibilities of peaceful co-existence.
ness_suresh
Aug 28 2006, 06:02 PM
Marco or Marcofan is fine Rockingmule (in case you haven't noticed, I like Marco!)
You do have a good point there about Matthew. I don't remember anything even being mentioned about him since Jordan has been back. We don't know if Jordan even knew anything about him. I think he was either from the future himself or sent by someone from the future. I don't believe he was on the same side of the future as the ones who took the 4400, though. We already know there are 2 sides in the future, apparently fighting for control over the future, but we don't really know who are the good guys and the bad guys (if there really is even a good side and bad side). But I, too, am curious to know more about Matthew. We don't even know if the 4400 were taken and sent back by the same PFTF as the ones who showed Jordan what he saw in the future. For all we know, one side took them and changed them all and then the other side took Jordan back and showed him what the future had in store to change the tide of the battle for the future. I have more theories on this, but I have to go make dinner now, so I'll be back later to elaborate more on this.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 06:05 PM
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I would like to make a prediction.(Maia like)
Last night season ending left us a clue, at the end Isabelle and shawn was were in ENTAC hospital a wall apart.
I think ENTAC will have their hands full fighting the NOVA group and other newly enhanced people and will have to turn to shawn and Isabelle for help. ENTAC (Tom) will return Isabelle powers with promicin injections and she will wake shawn from his coma, and then the real war will begin.
Richard will fight on Jordan and the 4400 side, Ryland's bosses will be exposed to be one side of the PFTFs, I think the Matthew side.
Sorry to quote myself - Just for clarity.
ENTAC doesn't have any fire power to fight neither the 4400s nor the newly enhanced people, remember when Jordan wanted the NOVA members being held by ENTAC. The only two weapons they have are Isabelle and Shawn together they are a powerful force. remember in Shawns vision he is working with Isabelle against Richard and the 4400, in fact Shawn kills richard.
I think with or without Tom acceptance this is what I think will happen, by the time the ehnanced and NOVA get through with Tom he will be begging for Isabelle. PLUS I think only Isabelle can fix shawn, the doctors said they don't know why he won't wake.
Telepath489_07
Aug 28 2006, 06:05 PM
Personally, i'm not so sure that Isabelle won't keep fighting AGAINST shawn and the 4400. Even though she doesn't have her powers anymore doesn't mean she still isn't hellbent on STOPPING the 4400. She was "created" to do exactly that and i think losing her powers just slowed her down, but she HATES Collier. That will never change...lol
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 06:11 PM
Well, Cubex, I have always believed Jordan loves Shawn-if I'm right about that he must be broken hearted at what happened. The last thing we see is Jordan rushing off to hear about a new healer-a woman who healed her father of Alzheimer's. I think Isabelle will convince Richard to break her out-he's a real wild card, because he loves Isabelle and I think at this point if she says she wants to reform he'll believe her. I think she'll be long gone when Shawn wakes up.
Imagine if Jordan shows up on Tom's doorstep with a healer who can fix Shawn! Talk about being horned with a dilema-Tom is going to be truly desparate to save Shawn and he really doesn't have anyting AGAINST Jordan, plus he owes Jordan a huge debt he can never repay. I think Tom is a sorely tried man and if Jordan asks for his help in healing Shawn, Tom will jump at it. The way things are going, there is a possiblity that Jordan and Tom will join forces in the future.
Any chance we can get a prediction from Maia on any of this?
new4400fan
Aug 28 2006, 06:18 PM
Marcofan posted:
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I don't remember anything even being mentioned about him since Jordan has been back. We don't know if Jordan even knew anything about him.
Wasn’t he introduced while Collier was still around? In my book, Mathew is a big glaring hole in the story.
Cubex posted:
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ENTAC doesn't have any fire power to fight neither the 4400s nor the newly enhanced people, remember when Jordan wanted the NOVA members being held by ENTAC.
Not necessarily. Tess has the power to control people but, thus far, only when she concentrates on them, i.e. a sniper rifle would be able to take her out. Boyd was killed by conventional methods too. If memory serves, the only ones that have been shown as invulnerable are Isabelle (no longer) and Burkhoff. And FYI, I believe it’s “NTAC”, not “ENTAC”.
Cubex
Aug 28 2006, 06:22 PM
Remember ENTAC is hunting for Jordan, he is wanted for murder and sedition. Think back on the conversation at ENTAC with Diana, Tom and their boss about hunting Jordan.
I don't think anybody can fix what Isabelle did, she uses the 4400 person power against himself/herself, so you need someone far more powerful than shawn to override his powers and fix him.
In Shawn's vision of the future he is working with Isabelle, and Richard blames Isabelle for forcing him to fight against them.
Diana will retuurn with an ability, maybe more like Richard.
rockingmule
Aug 28 2006, 06:29 PM
New4400fan, Matthew only showed up after Jordan died. So convenient! Shawn was still in shock, everybody was upset, and here's Matthew all set to step in and help out-don't mind me, folks, I'm just here to give y'all a hand like Jordan wanted me to...
I'm so sure. Nope, I think Matthew either saw a chance at power and grabbed it or he's a PFTF himself or controlled by them. Oh, he was such a polecat-that time he slapped Isabelle was so mean. She looked so hurt...'Course that's before she realized she could melt somebody's brain...I still think he is the archvillain of the piece and I wouldn't be surprised to see him back somehow.