October
Aug 6 2006, 11:10 PM
In this episode, Stillson mentioned that we needed athorities who didn't use violence to intemidate those with different religious beliefs(please correct if wrong). It's funny, because elsewhere I had just argued that the U.S. does the oposite, they fight to defend, not based on religious beliefs, but to protect their people.
What's your opinion? Do we fight wars religiously or to defend?
My opinion? The U.S. has been known to allow many diverse cultures and religions into the country, instead of setting one religion for everyone to following, and one culture to be. Maybe the government's regretting that now, but if we're going to be the land of the free, the land of opportunity, for many, then we have to act like it. Yes, we have to defend our country, but we have to stay true to our morals as well.
Concerning this question, all in all, I do think that there's more fighting to defend people rather than religious beliefs.
jmd811
Aug 7 2006, 12:58 AM
i think it's both. but i agree that it is also mostly to defend this country. we were attacked by a radical islamic terrorist group. but the more i look at what's going on in the Middle East, i'm beginning to wonder if the word "radical" should even be in there. Palestines get democracy. what do they do with it? they elect the group Hamas, a terrorist group bent on destroying Israel, as their leader. In Baghdad, there was a massive rally in support for Hezbollah troops. What does that tell about Islam as a whole?
The U.S. is protecting not only America, but the also the world from this terror.
From Al-Qaeda, they might see it as fighting religiously. But for the U.S., it's more about defending our country but also with a somewhat religious mindset.
flyboy
Aug 7 2006, 04:14 AM
I think groups that say they are being attacked by others because of their religion are saying this to then justify their fanatical way of viewing life,and to then justify their disgusting acts of terrorism.
When you say its 'religious',then its against 'god' and since he wont defend himself you are then justified in doing it for him.
Their is no logic to this and this is reflected in the dispicable acts of murder and maiming.Its so cowardly that people are not given a chance to defend themselves against death.If I was going to be executed for no reason,I would want a chance to defend myself somehow,even challenging them to mortal combat by calling them cowards....at least I would die trying to save my life.But these that execute others are cowards.
But then,when you look at what so called democracy has done in killing innocent people,really both sides are as bad as each other,just in differant ways.
Luxorien
Aug 7 2006, 02:05 PM
I don't think a simple answer to that question exists. In many senses, the "War on Terror" is a religious "war" and in many senses it is not. Some would argue that all wars are religious, others that none are. I think there is some merit to each position. The course of human events is influenced by so many variables, it's nearly impossible to pick out any clear evidence.
If you held a gun to my head, I would say that (from a US perspective) this "war" is not religious simply because religious motivations are very rarely pure enough in this country to get such a huge political/military ball rolling. Highly industrialized nations are motivated primarily by power and greed (Nazi Germany notwithstanding) and any appearance of religious motivation is usually a front for something else.
I think I should also add that there's nothing wrong with being motivated by power and greed. I think it's perfectly right and moral that nations should work to secure their own interests. There are immoral ways to reach for power, but ambition itself is not a crime. It's a requirement for nationhood.
However, I don't think it would be wise to underestimate the human factor. People don't always act in their own best interests because they don't always know what their own best interests are. Sometimes people just do weird things. That's one of the reasons it's so hard to figure out why political/military events happen the way they do. Another reason is that a nation or an institution is not a monolithic entity but a group of individuals who all have their own individual thoughts and motivations. Asking why the US is doing something is like asking why millions of people bought four-door green Blazers from Chevy. Only the most simplistic and unsatisfying answers will apply to all those people.
miranzemlja
Aug 7 2006, 10:27 PM
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What does that tell about Islam as a whole?
Did you REALLY just say that? That's such an unbelievably uneducated and intolerant statement it makes me feel sick. I can't remember specifically the number, but Islam is one of the most followed religions in the world. The number of people who partake in these extremist groups are such an incredibly small minority of Muslims.
In regards to Hamas. Hamas as acted as a humanitarian group for Palestinians for years. Yes it does have a wing which has commited terrorist acts, but they've provided large numbers of Palestinians with shelter, medical attention, food, when they had nothing. And THAT is why they were elected. Now I'm not saying thier humanitiarian aid makes up for thier violence at all.
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From Al-Qaeda, they might see it as fighting religiously. But for the U.S., it's more about defending our country but also with a somewhat religious mindset.
Religious as in, "We must protect Israel at all costs so that we can hasten the second coming!". You're right about that.
jmd811
Aug 7 2006, 11:04 PM
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Did you REALLY just say that? That's such an unbelievably uneducated and intolerant statement it makes me feel sick. I can't remember specifically the number, but Islam is one of the most followed religions in the world. The number of people who partake in these extremist groups are such an incredibly small minority of Muslims.
Uneducated? Intolerant? Open your eyes and take a good look at the Middle East. You know what your going to find? A region filled with Islamic states hellbent on destroying Israel. Have you read the Quran and what it teaches?
"Fight and slay Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war)." - Surah 9:5
"O you who believe! take nor the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." - Surah 5:51
That sounds really tolerant now doesn't it?
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In regards to Hamas. Hamas as acted as a humanitarian group for Palestinians for years. Yes it does have a wing which has commited terrorist acts, but they've provided large numbers of Palestinians with shelter, medical attention, food, when they had nothing. And THAT is why they were elected. Now I'm not saying thier humanitiarian aid makes up for thier violence at all.
Hamas? humanitarian? give me a break. when the Isralis gave the Palestines land in the Gaza Strip, what did they do with it? Did they build schools? Hospitals? Homes? No. They build rocket launchers and commenced there attacks on Israel. That's really humanitarian.
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Religious as in, "We must protect Israel at all costs so that we can hasten the second coming!". You're right about that.
And? What's wrong with that? What's wrong about supporting the only true democracy and our only true ally in the Middle East? What's wrong with protecting a country from surrounding enemies who are driven and determined to destroy her?
You make protecting Israel sound like a bad thing. that makes me sick.
ireactions
Aug 7 2006, 11:21 PM
Okay, let's try to calm down. Look, Luxorien and I are friends. Lux has a sign in her front yard saying, "We support our troops in Iraq." I read "Captain America" comics and grin approvingly when Cap beats up soldiers at Guantanamo Bay and declares war on the current President. Nevertheless, Lux and I are friends. We recognize that on certain matters, all our perspectives will do is smash against each other again and again in a repetitive, deafening collision that could conceivably drown out our friendship. So we talk about other things instead. Like pie. We love pie. And cookies. And her mother, we're both very fond of Lux's mother.
Think of pies. They are tasty pastries that are warm and layered and have all sorts of fillings. Who doesn't love pie? And cookies! Even Janus (boo! hiss!) loves cookies.
- Ibrahim Ng
miranzemlja
Aug 7 2006, 11:22 PM
Uneducated? Intolerant? Open your eyes and take a good look at the Middle East. You know what your going to find? A region filled with Islamic states hellbent on destroying Israel. Have you read the Quran and what it teaches?
"Fight and slay Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem (of war)." - Surah 9:5
"O you who believe! take nor the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." - Surah 5:51
That sounds really tolerant now doesn't it?
The fact is, it appears that humankind is unable to live with each other peacefully. I can't think of a religion which does not have justifications for violence. I have read the Qur'an. Ever read the Christian Bible? There's the same kind of passages in there. Same goes for Jewish, Hindu, etc texts.
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Hamas? humanitarian? give me a break. when the Isralis gave the Palestines land in the Gaza Strip, what did they do with it? Did they build schools? Hospitals? Homes? No. They build rocket launchers and commenced there attacks on Israel. That's really humanitarian.
Like I said, there is an extremist wing and the horrible things they do and that is the problem with Hamas. The violence will always overshadow the good.
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And? What's wrong with that? What's wrong about supporting the only true democracy and our only true ally in the Middle East? What's wrong with protecting a country from surrounding enemies who are driven and determined to destroy her?
You make protecting Israel sound like a bad thing. that makes me sick.
There isn't anything wrong with protecting Israel as a nation and the people who live in it. Of course they should be protected. I'm just not sure the reasons why it is so important that the United States government protect and support them with no questions asked are always the right ones. Israel has committed its fair share of atrocities as well, let's not forget.
And you're right. I'll admit it, I felt your post as an attack on a religion I hold very dear to my heart and went into defensive mode. It just drives me crazy when people lump extremists in with all the other Muslims in the world. The same thing goes for any other religion. There are those on both ends of the spectrum, but the majority lie in the center and are simply trying to live thier lives the best they can.
jmd811
Aug 7 2006, 11:41 PM
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The fact is, it appears that humankind is unable to live with each other peacefully. I can't think of a religion which does not have justifications for violence. I have read the Qur'an. Ever read the Christian Bible? There's the same kind of passages in there. Same goes for Jewish, Hindu, etc texts.
Show me a passage in the Bible where it teaches to kill whoever doesn't convert to Christianity.
The Bible teaches to love your enemies.
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." - Matthew 5:44
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There isn't anything wrong with protecting Israel as a nation and the people who live in it. Of course they should be protected. I'm just not sure the reasons why it is so important that the United States government protect and support them with no questions asked are always the right ones. Israel has committed its fair share of atrocities as well, let's not forget.
And you're right. I'll admit it, I felt your post as an attack on a religion I hold very dear to my heart and went into defensive mode. It just drives me crazy when people lump extremists in with all the other Muslims in the world. The same thing goes for any other religion. There are those on both ends of the spectrum, but the majority lie in the center and are simply trying to live thier lives the best they can.
I'm not attacking Muslims themselves. Let me make that clear. I want to make that clear. i am aware and have spoken to many respectable and caring Muslims. I'm just pointing out that the teachings of the Quaran are condemning and intolerant. I just can't concieve how a people can allow terrorist groups to control their governments (Hezbollah in Lebanon; Hamas for the Palestinians). How they can rally and support by the hundreds of thousands a psychopath who wants to "wipe Israel off the map" (Iran). Or how they gather in the streets of Baghdad by the thousands to support a terrorist group in Hezbollah.
But I don't blame the people themselves. I pray for them. I blame the teachings and oppresive dictators.
jmd811
Aug 7 2006, 11:51 PM
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Okay, let's try to calm down. Look, Luxorien and I are friends. Lux has a sign in her front yard saying, "We support our troops in Iraq." I read "Captain America" comics and grin approvingly when Cap beats up soldiers at Guantanamo Bay and declares war on the current President. Nevertheless, Lux and I are friends. We recognize that on certain matters, all our perspectives will do is smash against each other again and again in a repetitive, deafening collision that could conceivably drown out our friendship. So we talk about other things instead. Like pie. We love pie. And cookies. And her mother, we're both very fond of Lux's mother.
Think of pies. They are tasty pastries that are warm and layered and have all sorts of fillings. Who doesn't love pie? And cookies! Even Janus (boo! hiss!) loves cookies.
- Ibrahim Ng
I think it's healthy to have a civilized debate on worldly and political issues. It's good to express your opinion and hear the other side as well. I find joy in that. It helps me understand more about what others are thinking and gives me a new angle and perspective on things. I only hope i can have the same affect on the person i'm debating with. i know we all have our differences, but that's what makes our country great! it's our ability to freely express our opinons on to others! i love my country for that.
and then afterwards, we can always enjoy a good helping of pies and cookies to settle things!
miranzemlja
Aug 7 2006, 11:59 PM
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Show me a passage in the Bible where it teaches to kill whoever doesn't convert to Christianity.
Not exactly promoting killing those, but certianly saying they will be punished:
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
jmd811
Aug 8 2006, 12:10 AM
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Not exactly promoting killing those, but certianly saying they will be punished:
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
It's not saying convert or die. The way I see it, it's like this. Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. By accepting this gift. By acknowledging that he indeed did this, you accept that gift of eternal salvation.
By rejecting it, you seal your own fate. You do it unto yourself. Not others unto you.
It's not telling Christians to go out there and kill Jews or Muslims or anybody. Thus the commandment, thou shall not kill. It's telling Christians to spread the word and tell others.
Whether people accept it or not is completely up to them.
Luxorien
Aug 8 2006, 01:59 PM
Lol @ Ib.
"Banana. A yellow fruit. Also, a kind of pudding. A delicious pudding."
Pudding always gets short shrift. And what about beer? Hooray, beer! I like Lenten beer best. It's a meal in a glass.
Okay. I don't think we'll ever agree on the beer. But pudding is good, right?
I'm trying to get my mommy to teach me how to make a perfect pie crust. Pie is the food of the gods.
October
Aug 8 2006, 02:17 PM
Calm down...there are a *lot* of American kids out there who probably don't know what this war is about. Personally, I choose to stay away from politics and all, what doesn't infuriate confusses me, but what doesn't infuriate me...well...it's all a big puzzle;)
Some parents don't want to explain to their kids about what's going on because they don't want to scare them, and schools...well, you know how schools go.
Luxorien
Aug 8 2006, 02:25 PM
Poll Finds Muslim Approval of Terrorism DeclinesPEW ReportExtremism is getting more extreme all the time, apparently, but in many countries it's still roughly half the population condoning the murder of non-Muslims. The situation is anything but simple. There are no easy answers.
Personally, I think people put too much blame on religion. Bad religion is a symptom, not a cause. Human beings make the choices that have the real impact here. A religion is like a gun. It can be used to murder children or protect them. It all depends on who's pulling the trigger.
Skeptic has an article this month about the effect of religion on violence and morality but I haven't read it yet. Sounds like it would be relevant, though.
miranzemlja
Aug 8 2006, 11:49 PM
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It's not saying convert or die. The way I see it, it's like this. Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. By accepting this gift. By acknowledging that he indeed did this, you accept that gift of eternal salvation.
By rejecting it, you seal your own fate. You do it unto yourself. Not others unto you.
It's not telling Christians to go out there and kill Jews or Muslims or anybody. Thus the commandment, thou shall not kill. It's telling Christians to spread the word and tell others.
Whether people accept it or not is completely up to them.
Well I guess you win then.
I don't think you can judge all this simply on the those Suras however. There's more than enough violence promoted within the Hebrew Bible/ Old Testament and New Testament for me to think that Christianity is any better than any other religion in those regards.
Again, so as not to offend you, I believe every religion is the product of what it's followers make of it. Evil people will twist it to work for thier goals. Good, kind, loving people, will make a religion a beautiful thing.
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Personally, I think people put too much blame on religion. Bad religion is a symptom, not a cause. Human beings make the choices that have the real impact here. A religion is like a gun. It can be used to murder children or protect them. It all depends on who's pulling the trigger.
Exactly. And what I was unsuccessfully trying to argue earlier is that it isn't necessarily Islam which is causing people to commit these acts. There's more to it than that. There are numerous issues, such as the lasting effects of colonialism in the early 1900s throughout the Middle East, ineffective governments for these countries, poor economies, etc. which have allowed this extremism to explode. I'm afraid some of these suicide bombers and such see no where else to turn except to thier faith (one which they have been brainwashed into seeing a totally messed up version of).
For the people who are in the lower levels of the terrorist organizations, I have no doubt it has to do with desperation and a strong belief that what they are doing is what God wants them to do. As for those who are in the controlling positions of the organizations, I believe it has a lot to do with power, and the desire to have more power.
And to go back to what people said earlier, I think one of them being you Luxorien, as much as this war might be about "defending our country", it is simply impossible to argue that there are no religious motives as well. Listen to George W. Bush's speechs over the past 5 years. The words and phrases he choses to use in his speeches practically scream that he views this as some kind of a crusade, among other things. I mean come on, a Christian refering to the Crusades while waging a war, to people living in the Middle East is going to be viewed as having some serious religious meaning behind the war.
Luxorien
Aug 9 2006, 10:43 AM
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The words and phrases he choses to use in his speeches practically scream that he views this as some kind of a crusade, among other things. I mean come on, a Christian refering to the Crusades while waging a war, to people living in the Middle East is going to be viewed as having some serious religious meaning behind the war.
It has been my opinion for quite some time that Bush uses such rhetoric to court the religious right, but that the true motives of his administration are more prosaic. He has made so many promises to religious conservatives that he has not delivered on. But then, one can't ever know what's really going on in another person's head. I suppose it's possible that he has deep-seated, violent attitudes towards Islam, in which case his insistence that the US is fighting terrorists and not peace-loving Muslims would be the calculated rhetoric, designed to court moderates. There's no way to tell, really.
I think that for many people on both sides, this has become a religious war, but the fact that everything exploded (no pun intended) after 9/11 seems extremely significant to me. No President could have gotten the needed support for the Iraq War without 9/11 or something like it. I don't care how many zealous Christians this country has.
It may be that 9/11 was used to start a war that is being waged for other reasons. I freely admit that as a possibility because I honestly don't know (and am not sure it's possible to know) all the historical, political, cultural and economic reasons this war happened. But I think the lion's share of the blame must be placed with the group of extremist ****tards who flew a couple planes into the WTC. The war may be about religion for some people, but it would not have been possible without terrorism.
At least, it seems that way to me. But I suffer from a great deal of confusion regarding current events, especially international ones, so my opinion probably doesn't carry a lot of weight.
NYJOEY
Aug 28 2006, 02:05 PM
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Not exactly promoting killing those, but certianly saying they will be punished:
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
It's not saying convert or die. The way I see it, it's like this. Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. By accepting this gift. By acknowledging that he indeed did this, you accept that gift of eternal salvation.
By rejecting it, you seal your own fate. You do it unto yourself. Not others unto you.
It's not telling Christians to go out there and kill Jews or Muslims or anybody. Thus the commandment, thou shall not kill. It's telling Christians to spread the word and tell others.
Whether people accept it or not is completely up to them.
Well, that is if Jesus actually died which is up to debate.
Anyways, if He did die for my sins, wouldn't I be entitled to Eternal Salvation in any case? Afterall, He died right? According to you that should qualify all of us a freebie.
Oh and besides that "thorny issue", after having read a few history books, it seems that more innocent people have died at the hands of those spreading the so-called "Good Word" than in any war ever. I wonder how religion got such a good rep?
Tell ya what, you keep believing whatever the heck you care to believe and leave me and everyone else to their own beliefs. Do that and maybe there would be a few more happy people in this world. So keep it to yourself, I do not care to read your voodoo nonsense, I was/am under the impression that this is a TELEVISION SHOW message board not a Sunday school.
All my best to you and yours,
JOEY
jmd811
Aug 28 2006, 03:22 PM
What right do you have to tell me what to say and what not to say? I'll say what I want because I'm free to do so. My founding fathers have given me and everyone else in this country. This is America. Free speech? Freedom of Religion? You can ignore me, call me names, whatever. But don't you EVER tell me not to express my beliefs. My comments were relevant to the issue of this topic. If you don't like it, get out.
And the gift of salvation is right in front of and all you have to do is accept it. That's it. Is that offensive to you? Is that offensive to anyone? If it is, I'm sorry.
May God bless you. I'll be praying for you.
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