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Episode Discussion: Season 3, Episode 16, “Judgment Day”, Airs Tuesday Feb 28, 2011

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#221 CathysOpinion

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:18 AM

I think the reason Peter got so angry at Kramer has to do with a more personal reason than even Neal. Kramer lost his belief in Peter's abilities to make good calls about things. He lost his faith in Peter, and he's sneaking around behind Peter's back instead of trusting him to make the right decisions.

That has to hurt. I feel so badly for Peter. He's losing Neal, Mozzie, his friend and mentor, and (if Kramer gets vengeful or someone else starts digging) his career is potentially in danger. That's a lot of hits to take in two days.

I agree. Not only has Kramer hurt Neal, he hurt Peter. Peter looked up to him and Kramer did things behind Peter's back. I feel bad for Peter too. I do believe that Peter was giving Neal the go ahead to run. He was not surprised when Diana interrupted his interview with the news that Neal cut his anklet.

Peter's ability to pull a con has increased. The way he conned Kramer was brilliant. I believe he has a plan in motion to get Neal back, but it's going to involve discrediting Kramer to prove that Neal ran because he was in danger and had no choice.
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#222 Surreal44

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:26 AM

I agree. Not only has Kramer hurt Neal, he hurt Peter. Peter looked up to him and Kramer did things behind Peter's back. I feel bad for Peter too. I do believe that Peter was giving Neal the go ahead to run. He was not surprised when Diana interrupted his interview with the news that Neal cut his anklet.

Peter's ability to pull a con has increased. The way he conned Kramer was brilliant. I believe he has a plan in motion to get Neal back, but it's going to involve discrediting Kramer to prove that Neal ran because he was in danger and had no choice.


When Kramer accused Peter of obstructing justice, Peter said, "I could say the same thing about you". I wonder if Peter really could use that to help Neal, and to get Kramer to back off.

Going back to the episode itself, I am trying to figure out why Sara and Bosch didn't come to the lobby earlier. Peter was there before they were. What the heck were they doing? If they'd been in the lobby a few seconds earlier, things might have gone a lot smoother.

Did anyone else notice that when Peter was putting the cuffs on Neal, he winked at him? I adore Peter.

Also...where did all that time go? Sara bought Neal six hours. Does it take that long to traverse the city? How did Neal run out of time so quickly?

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#223 CathysOpinion

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:47 AM

When Kramer accused Peter of obstructing justice, Peter said, "I could say the same thing about you". I wonder if Peter really could use that to help Neal, and to get Kramer to back off.

Going back to the episode itself, I am trying to figure out why Sara and Bosch didn't come to the lobby earlier. Peter was there before they were. What the heck were they doing? If they'd been in the lobby a few seconds earlier, things might have gone a lot smoother.

Did anyone else notice that when Peter was putting the cuffs on Neal, he winked at him? I adore Peter.

Also...where did all that time go? Sara bought Neal six hours. Does it take that long to traverse the city? How did Neal run out of time so quickly?

I think Peter could make a very good case against Kramer. Kramer told Peter that he wanted Neal in DC. At Sterling Bosch, others heard him tell Neal 'see you in DC'. Sara told Kramer that the Raphael was turned in and being authenticated, so why was Kramer interfering? Here he is wasting all kinds of FBI and NYPD resources to retrieve property that WAS being returned to its rightful owner. Of course a person returning a stolen item has possession of it, so why try to get them with a possession charge? Who would turn in stolen property if they were afraid of being charged? Kramer was setting a bad precedent doing that. Plus, when did Kramer give his interview? He was on the list. Peter was supposed to be the last person.

If Kramer tried to make an issue about Neal being with Sara when he called (tracking data would confirm this), both Neal and Sara can easily say it was about the return of the Raphael or about Sara's talking at the hearing. I don't think Kramer had the cameras going in the interrogation room (they would indicate what HE was doing) so he has no proof that Neal got into his briefcase (unless he had it checked for fingerprints).

Oh, I'd love to see Kramer try to get something from Ellen. The Marshalls Service don't take to kindly to anyone messing with their witnesses.

I noticed the wink. That was great. I think Peter got to Sara minutes before Neal arrived, so I don't think Sara and Bosch had that much time. Of course, Neal could have given the painting to Mozzie. I don't think Kramer's people know about Mozzie (remember Mozzie said he wasn't a 'known' felon).

I don't know how often the tram goes back and forth to Roosevelt Island, but six hours does seem like it should be enough time.
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#224 UpstateRules

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 07:51 AM

I don't think Neal's existence working for Art Crimes in Washington would have been tolerable because of all the baggage Kramer's toting around: his professional resentment of Peter and Neal's storied high conviction rate, being surpassed by his former protege, his many efforts to warn Peter being thrown back in his face, Neal's sullying of Peter's ethics, Neal humiliating him professionally with the chocolate coin switch...He would have made Neal's life as miserable and mean as he could get away with within the context of the law. It was payback time.

Edited by UpstateRules, 03 March 2012 - 05:02 PM.

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#225 JRod11

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

I don't think Neal's existence working for Art Crimes in Washington would have been tolerable because of all the baggage Kramer's toting around: his professional resentment of Peter and Neal's storied high conviction rate, being surpassed by his former protege, his many efforts to warn Peter being thrown back in his face, Neal's sullying of Peter's ethics, Neal humiliating him professionally with the chocolate coin switch...He would have made Neal's life as miserable and mean as he could get away with within the context of the law. It was payback time.



Yes, Kramer would have made Neal's life impossible. And he would always be digging for something from Neal's past to keep Neal from ever having a chance at freedom. Plus, Neal needs a certain amount of creative freedom in which to work and Kramer would be loath to give him this. This may be where the series plot partly goes, actually.... Kramer constantly threatening to dig up something new on Neal and Neal and Moz (and Peter) staying one step ahead. All that could make for some nice recovery fees for Sara! Well, we'll see. But the DC Art Crimes division is not a viable option for Neal. Besides, we'd all miss June's apartment!

#226 ASLAN95

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 11:48 AM

I don't think that the anklet is...how can I put this?

You're right. The anklet itself can't keep Neal in New York. But that isn't why it's important. It's symbolic. It's a reminder to Neal that he has a debt to pay for society. It's an inconvenience for him when he allows it to remain on him...and it's meant to be that way. But Neal's criminal history isn't the only symbolic meaning to the anklet; it's important because it's a reminder to Neal that he has people to care about him. It reminds Neal, and psychologically it helps ground him, and lets him know that there are people depending on him. And it's a reminder of his relationship with Peter. It's not just something to let Peter track Neal; it's a tool to help save him.

It's a tether and it's a safety net all in one. It's about about retribution, and it's about redemption and second chances. The weight of the anklet, the little green light...they can't prevent Neal from leaving, but they can give him an excuse to stay. And that's why the anklet must remain.



The anklet does not ground Neal. Neal has his reasons for staying in NYC. He likes the work and he likes those he works with. The anklet does nothing to enhance redemption and is not a retribution device. It is a device that allows people to track him. Neal has been avoiding that feature when he needed. It is not a safety device , it does nothing to keep Neal in NYC. He really did not need an excuse. He just had to say he wanted to stay and Neal finally did that despite great temptation. The anklet did not help Neal with that decision or with his arguments with Mozzie. The anklet is totally useless and serves no purpose.

The anklet could not ever help prevent Neal from escaping. Neal offered the anklet to Peter as a device to help convince Peter he would not run.in the pilot. Now that Neal has convinced Peter he will not run without cause it was totally useless. Peter knows that for sure now.

As to Neal's debt to society. I sorry to inform you that Neal never cared about that or showed any concern in the show. I doubt that most criminals would ever be concerned. Personally I have no knowledge of anyone that is a law abiding person believes that drivel. No one has a debt to society. We are all socialized to accept that if we accept certain rules that we can live together as a society. Those rules date from before biblical times. The 10 commandments even buttress those rules.

Criminals are by definition outsiders They break those rules. Thou shall not steal or murder. That is why Robin Hood was an outlaw, he lived outside the law since he stole. People who lie and deceive break a fundamental concept of trust in any society. A society can not function without a great deal of trust. You trust that the employment offer is real and that your employer will pay you. Contract law is totally based on the concept of trust. . Fraud creates damage but not as much damage as those we place in authority do when they abuse the justice system.

Kramer overtly said that he intended to abuse and pervert the system to enslave Neal. Kramer's motives are based on jeoulousy and envy. Again another commandment broken. Any coercion to force labor is slavery. This was no indenture servitude which is basically what Neal agreed to for the 4 years with the FBI.
However I wondered how Kramer ever thought that he could force Neal. Even if he got Neal physically, he could not force Neal's genius. Neal would not use his abilities as he did with Peter. He would have no reason to. He would not respect or admire Kramer. He would have no emotional need to help a man that coerced him.

Mankind has used coercion to compel humans forever . It is a dismal failure. Men never work to their best under coercive systems . USSR failed on that.

Neal made the offer to help Peter to find Kate. But he was ready before arrest to retire. He efforts to impress her compelled hin to steal the Raphael and the high nature thefts and cons.. However despite Neal s ability to con he never went for the financial cons to gain money. He used his abilities to steal instead. Once Kate was gone, there was less reason to steal for her.

In the pilot Neal wanted to impress Peter so to stay free to find Kate. Later He discovered he liked the work and Peter so he continued his best efforts. Neal found out that he has a passion for justice and that he could indulge that passion at the FBI. Neal like being a white knight and heroic. I think that Hughes recognized that trait and it was similar to his agents.

I disagree that Kramer threats were silly. There were convincing enough for him to have the authority to bring Marshalls to arrest Neal at the hearing. So we may think the charges were specious,but Peter did not. Neal trusted Peter's judgement and when Peter indicated to run. Neal trusted Peter's gut reaction. Neal ran as Peter told him to.

When the man who has for years tell you to run instead of trying his best to get you to stay, you don't argue. Peter has a better feel on what he can get away in the DOJ better than Neal. You seemed to argue that Peter over reacted. I don't think so . Neal was endangered form Kramer's intentions. Any one is vulnerable from the machinations of the justice system when it decides to to use it authority for personal motives.

Yeah, Kramer's threats were silly. I realize his "I'll just keep digging" was a threat but....eh. I would have preferred something a little more solid than that. And again, while going with Kramer wouldn't be ideal for Neal, I'm not sure it would be OMG horrible. So the writers didn't sell me on that point -- but I'm glad Neal ran, and I'm glad Peter gave him the nod. I don't know if Peter meant for Neal to flee the country, but whatever. :D I look forward to seeing what happens next!



#227 ASLAN95

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:04 PM

Neal did know Kramer's intentions He overheard when he was looking at the briefcase. Neal was not endangered if Kramer recovered the Raphael at Ellen's but Ellen was endangered. Once Neal realized that he had to recover it . Sara was clever ,since Neal did not indicate he would give the painting back.. She boxed him in when she said they had recivered the painting and now Neal had to deliver it to Sara to prevent Sara from getting in trouble. That increased Neal's danger immensely. He could have handed the painting to Mozzie and then Kramer would not have possesion charge. Neal courted that charge by his promise to deliver the painting.

All this effort was not to prevent Neal from being charged but to help those women who helped him when they were endangered by his actions.
Peters quick thinking got Neal out of that.

Neal told Kramer that his plan of Neal being in DC, " Don't count on it"

Kramers' threat of finding a skeleton is now moot. Most of Neal's skeletons are covered by the statute of limitations. Only murder is not. Those possible charges fade in comparison to his fugitive status . Interestingly France has no extradiction treaty with the US.

Neal was not planning to run based on Kramer's threats but when Peter indicated to run, Neal ran.

Edited by ASLAN95, 03 March 2012 - 12:06 PM.


#228 ASLAN95

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:30 PM

Yes, Kramer would have made Neal's life impossible. And he would always be digging for something from Neal's past to keep Neal from ever having a chance at freedom. Plus, Neal needs a certain amount of creative freedom in which to work and Kramer would be loath to give him this. This may be where the series plot partly goes, actually.... Kramer constantly threatening to dig up something new on Neal and Neal and Moz (and Peter) staying one step ahead. All that could make for some nice recovery fees for Sara! Well, we'll see. But the DC Art Crimes division is not a viable option for Neal. Besides, we'd all miss June's apartment!


Kramer plans for Neal were doomed to failure. Neal would have to agree or face prison. Neal always had a third choice, run and be a fugitive. I doubt that Neal would choose Kramer unless Peter told him to do that because he trust Peter's intentions. Neal would have chosen to serve the two years in prison and pay for protection if needed.

If the DOJ ordered Kramer to be Neal's handler then Neal could choose to go back to prison to serve out the rest of his term. Kramer placed too much faith in Neal's reluctance to go back to prison ,. In Withdrawal when Peter offered the deal , Neal asked to think about it . Mozzie said he could get him out but not without cost. Neal chose to accept Peter's deal.

Peter wanted to keep Neal and worried that Kramer would succeed in Kramer getting Neal's sentence extended. He also knew that Neal would run if he was boxed. Peter really did not want that. It was really ironic that it was Peter that told Neal to run .

#229 winterstar

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:53 PM

1330795838[/url]' post='1542942']
Kramer plans for Neal were doomed to failure. Neal would have to agree or face prison. Neal always had a third choice, run and be a fugitive. I doubt that Neal would choose Kramer unless Peter told him to do that because he trust Peter's intentions. Neal would have chosen to serve the two years in prison and pay for protection if needed.

If the DOJ ordered Kramer to be Neal's handler then Neal could choose to go back to prison to serve out the rest of his term. Kramer placed too much faith in Neal's reluctance to go back to prison ,. In Withdrawal when Peter offered the deal , Neal asked to think about it . Mozzie said he could get him out but not without cost. Neal chose to accept Peter's deal.

Peter wanted to keep Neal and worried that Kramer would succeed in Kramer getting Neal's sentence extended. He also knew that Neal would run if he was boxed. Peter really did not want that. It was really ironic that it was Peter that told Neal to run .


I still think there has to be something more about Neal that drove Kramer to act that way.

#230 Aragarna

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:19 PM

We know Peter will find a way to get Neal back. In the mean time, he'd rather give Neal his blessing to run and enjoy the tropics than have him root in prison.
Peter has always stated that Neal deserved happiness. Neal would be happier on a tropical island than forced to work against his will (or root in prison).
Not sure it would really be easier to beat Kramer with Neal on the run, but, at least, Peter protected Neal, Neal is safe until Peter gets things solved. That's what friends do.

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#231 Surreal44

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:26 PM

The anklet does not ground Neal. Neal has his reasons for staying in NYC. He likes the work and he likes those he works with. The anklet does nothing to enhance redemption and is not a retribution device. It is a device that allows people to track him. Neal has been avoiding that feature when he needed. It is not a safety device , it does nothing to keep Neal in NYC. He really did not need an excuse. He just had to say he wanted to stay and Neal finally did that despite great temptation. The anklet did not help Neal with that decision or with his arguments with Mozzie. The anklet is totally useless and serves no purpose.

The anklet could not ever help prevent Neal from escaping. Neal offered the anklet to Peter as a device to help convince Peter he would not run.in the pilot. Now that Neal has convinced Peter he will not run without cause it was totally useless. Peter knows that for sure now.


If Neal hadn't had the anklet on in the first season, he would have run. We all know it; he knew it, and Peter knew it. The anklet did indeed force him to stay, to a certain extent. It was easier to stay on the anklet as a prisoner than it was to run as a fugitive. So he had to stay. It DID ground Neal.

And the anklet has saved Neal from danger on at least three occasions. It's helped Peter find him, it's helped Peter to figure out his plans in order to aid him whenever Neal gets carried away.

The anklet represents retribution from society. Neal violated the laws of society, and the anklet is a punishment for that violation. It serves the same purpose as prison, only it's a lot nicer than sitting in a cell every day and every night.

Because the anklet did indeed force Neal to stay (again, he could have run, but it was easier not to), it forced Neal to learn to adapt to his situation. As he adapted, he realized that what he had was not the worst thing in the world. He grew to care about the people around him, and they grew to care about him. The anklet has allowed for Neal to grow as a person, in a way that would never have happened without it.

He's also used the anklet as an excuse to not run. At any point when he and Moz had the treasure, he could have had Mozzie get it ready, and he could have run. But he didn't. The anklet was an excuse, especially in the first episode back. Neal has used it as a blockade to prevent himself from leaving. It's his excuse to not run.

Only very recently has he been able to admit that he doesn't want to run. I'm still not convinced that he's completely sincere in that belief, however. I think he means it when he says it, but Neal's world and his needs are constantly shifting.

So the anklet has been vital to Neal developing.

As to Neal's debt to society. I sorry to inform you that Neal never cared about that or showed any concern in the show. I doubt that most criminals would ever be concerned. Personally I have no knowledge of anyone that is a law abiding person believes that drivel. No one has a debt to society. We are all socialized to accept that if we accept certain rules that we can live together as a society. Those rules date from before biblical times. The 10 commandments even buttress those rules.


I don't really care if Neal cared if he had a debt to society. And it doesn't matter if the reasoning behind that debt is social conditioning. What I do care is that Neal has hurt people, and the result is him being on an anklet. Even if Neal never felt any guilt, that 2-mile radius was a huge inconvenience to him -- as it was meant to be. It was a reminder of what he'd done wrong. I don't care how he felt about it or how he viewed it, because it still served the purpose intended -- to make his life less fun.

...Fraud creates damage but not as much damage as those we place in authority do when they abuse the justice system.


They are equally bad. Fraud is very personal, and can devastate entire families. A family could lose their home, they could go without medical care, they could end up on the streets. Entire companies could crumble, thus laying off dozens, even hundreds of people. Fraud can cause prices to rise on goods, and those costs are passed onto consumers. It is not a victimless crime.

Kramer and Peter's abuses of the system are equally troubling. No one wants to hear that the law is being skirted or manipulated, because it makes things harder to convict dangerous criminals, and the discovery of corruption could end up releasing people back on the streets who should remain behind bars.

Using the law as a weapon, in the manner Kramer is doing is wrong. Using the law to allow felonious acts to go unpunished, as Peter has done, is equally wrong. Kramer sees Peter's actions as wrong, and is trying to stop it. He's doing it in the wrong way, but that doesn't make him incorrect. He's right to be concerned.

Imagine if Peter were being so free with the law for someone like Keller. Would you find it as endearing? Of course not. Neal is adorable. We all love him. But that doesn't mean that just because he's loveable that Peter should be doing everything that he has.

However I wondered how Kramer ever thought that he could force Neal. Even if he got Neal physically, he could not force Neal's genius. Neal would not use his abilities as he did with Peter. He would have no reason to. He would not respect or admire Kramer. He would have no emotional need to help a man that coerced him.


His ego figured he'd get Neal away from Peter, put him under a stricter control, and he figured Neal would do ok. I don't think Kramer was going to be horrible to Neal, but I do think he was going to make Neal color inside the lines. He probably figured that Neal would adjust given time. To some degree, Kramer is probably right. Neal could have adjusted, but he wouldn't have been happy.

I think Kramer truly believes that he would be a better leader for Neal. He was very disappointed, angry, and hurt when he realized Peter's full involvement in Neal skirting his grasp. I do believe that he was genuine in his assertions that he feels (at least on a surface level) that Neal and Peter would both be better off without each other. That doesn't make him right, of course. I just don't think he's pure evil.

I disagree that Kramer threats were silly. There were convincing enough for him to have the authority to bring Marshalls to arrest Neal at the hearing. So we may think the charges were specious,but Peter did not. Neal trusted Peter's judgement and when Peter indicated to run. Neal trusted Peter's gut reaction. Neal ran as Peter told him to.

When the man who has for years tell you to run instead of trying his best to get you to stay, you don't argue. Peter has a better feel on what he can get away in the DOJ better than Neal. You seemed to argue that Peter over reacted. I don't think so . Neal was endangered form Kramer's intentions. Any one is vulnerable from the machinations of the justice system when it decides to to use it authority for personal motives.


We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I think Peter made a foolish decision regarding Neal's future, based in part on his own selfish desires and ego, and also because he panicked. Out of the many evils he and Neal have faced, I find Kramer to be the one that would probably be the easiest to defeat.

But Peter made his decision, and Neal did too. So we'll see what happens. ;-)

I just hope we get some actual consequences for Peter, and not just Neal about this whole situation. Peter can't keep getting away with abusing the system the way he does without someone calling him on it.

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#232 ASLAN95

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 02:38 PM

Very nice post Surreal. i was hoping you would respond.


If Neal hadn't had the anklet on in the first season, he would have run. We all know it; he knew it, and Peter knew it. The anklet did indeed force him to stay, to a certain extent. It was easier to stay on the anklet as a prisoner than it was to run as a fugitive. So he had to stay. It DID ground Neal.


I disagree that Neal would have run the first season . He had a reason to stay and that was finding about Kate. You are right that the anklet did force him to use other methods in order not have to solve the mystery while on the run.



And the anklet has saved Neal from danger on at least three occasions. It's helped Peter find him, it's helped Peter to figure out his plans in order to aid him whenever Neal gets carried away.


I know that Peter has used the anklet to save Neal. However that is just lazy methods to solve a dilemna. I rather they did not use that . After all he would not have that ability with Diana or Jones. Neal does find trouble better than them. He operates in that world so he often asked to help in that world and that is a dangerous world. Neal survived for years without having FBI back up. In the case where he helped Mozzie and his waitress friend, Neal was climbing to the roof to escape when Peter came. I fully believe that Neal was capable to escape on his own.




The anklet represents retribution from society. Neal violated the laws of society, and the anklet is a punishment for that violation. It serves the same purpose as prison, only it's a lot nicer than sitting in a cell every day and every night.


Yes and no. The anklet is a new system to let productive members to continue that productivity with a punishment , The anklet is a hassle. But really is it because it is cheaper than housing a prisoner and the expense of prisons. Prisons are overcrowded with dangerous people . Neal is not considered dangerous despite his ability to steal millions. Most people that get anklets are not a flight risk and the anklet is not to prevent that. In Neal's case he is an enormous flight risk. He had few ties to the community as Peter so poignantly stated in the hearing.

The anklet was to convince Peter. but it never would have prevented flight. Peter accepted that risk when he took on Neal.Peter tried hard to persuade Neal that he could stay and give him other reasons to stay. I think if Peter had helped Neal find Kate in the beginning rather than work at cross purposes then Neal would have been convinced earlier. Suprising when Kate was killed off that could have left Neal with no reason to stay. Perhaps that is why he was in prison . The fact that Neal chose again to the deal meant that he now accepted Peter's arguments that he was helping and could have a life in NYC. Then he got started in a romantic relationship with Sara. Then when Adler got involved , Neal was determined to stay and solve the mystery again.

Peter accusation really threw Neal and that was when he was most vulnerable to leaving and especially when Mozzie dangled the treasure.



He's also used the anklet as an excuse to not run. At any point when he and Moz had the treasure, he could have had Mozzie get it ready, and he could have run. But he didn't. The anklet was an excuse, especially in the first episode back. Neal has used it as a blockade to prevent himself from leaving. It's his excuse to not run.

Only very recently has he been able to admit that he doesn't want to run. I'm still not convinced that he's completely sincere in that belief, however. I think he means it when he says it, but Neal's world and his needs are constantly shifting.

So the anklet has been vital to Neal developing.


I agree that Neal used it as an excuse and Mozzie was aware of that also. But it did not help Neal develop. It hinder that. Without that excuse he wouldlhave come to his decision earlier The anklet was a crutch and allowed Neal to put off his decision.


I don't really care if Neal cared if he had a debt to society. And it doesn't matter if the reasoning behind that debt is social conditioning. What I do care is that Neal has hurt people, and the result is him being on an anklet. Even if Neal never felt any guilt, that 2-mile radius was a huge inconvenience to him -- as it was meant to be. It was a reminder of what he'd done wrong. I don't care how he felt about it or how he viewed it, because it still served the purpose intended -- to make his life less fun.



They are equally bad. Fraud is very personal, and can devastate entire families. A family could lose their home, they could go without medical care, they could end up on the streets. Entire companies could crumble, thus laying off dozens, even hundreds of people. Fraud can cause prices to rise on goods, and those costs are passed onto consumers. It is not a victimless crime.


I have professional experience with fraud and well know the costs. But those cost are figured in the system. However I really don't care that Neal stole ,conned and defrauded corporations or people. He is a fictional person and even if real his fraud in extremly minor compared what the government steals or loses in boondoggles every day . $ 15 trillion in debt. Hah.


Kramer and Peter's abuses of the system are equally troubling. No one wants to hear that the law is being skirted or manipulated, because it makes things harder to convict dangerous criminals, and the discovery of corruption could end up releasing people back on the streets who should remain behind bars.

Using the law as a weapon, in the manner Kramer is doing is wrong. Using the law to allow felonious acts to go unpunished, as Peter has done, is equally wrong. Kramer sees Peter's actions as wrong, and is trying to stop it. He's doing it in the wrong way, but that doesn't make him incorrect. He's right to be concerned.

Imagine if Peter were being so free with the law for someone like Keller. Would you find it as endearing? Of course not. Neal is adorable. We all love him. But that doesn't mean that just because he's loveable that Peter should be doing everything that he has.


There are differences and I find it ironic to argue for Peter. However our justice system is biased to letting a criminal go rather than convict an innocent. So using the justice system as weapon is worse than allowing a criminal to go free. If the justice is used as a weapon then it is a weapon of tryanny and that makes the socirty deciion when to back the justice system questionable. There are too many laws and all of us are in danger of being convicted every day. It is easy to make the populace criminals. Martha Stewart was convicted of lie by declaring her innocence to the FBI and was imprisoned. Not because of insider trading.

Peter has covered up for Neal and as as our protagonist I want him to get off. However I expect some issues to arise. As a danger to our society I find Kramer methods more dangerous than Peter's leniency.



His ego figured he'd get Neal away from Peter, put him under a stricter control, and he figured Neal would do ok. I don't think Kramer was going to be horrible to Neal, but I do think he was going to make Neal color inside the lines. He probably figured that Neal would adjust given time. To some degree, Kramer is probably right. Neal could have adjusted, but he wouldn't have been happy.

I think Kramer truly believes that he would be a better leader for Neal. He was very disappointed, angry, and hurt when he realized Peter's full involvement in Neal skirting his grasp. I do believe that he was genuine in his assertions that he feels (at least on a surface level) that Neal and Peter would both be better off without each other. That doesn't make him right, of course. I just don't think he's pure evil.


I agree that in Kramer's mind he is justified. Most truly evil is done when the person is convinced he is right.I doubt that Kramer would treat Neal as in the fan fics. But his intention to enslave for life is evil despite his dressing it up.



We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I think Peter made a foolish decision regarding Neal's future, based in part on his own selfish desires and ego, and also because he panicked. Out of the many evils he and Neal have faced, I find Kramer to be the one that would probably be the easiest to defeat.

But Peter made his decision, and Neal did too. So we'll see what happens. ;-)

I just hope we get some actual consequences for Peter, and not just Neal about this whole situation. Peter can't keep getting away with abusing the system the way he does without someone calling him on it.



#233 LRaine

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:30 PM

I don't think the anklet ever served much of a moral purpose (and I'm one of those who doesn't actually think Neal's reformed per se all that much or ever will; what has happened is that he's learned to care about people who have a normal life, and to want in on that, so will be less likely to break the law, err, openly ;) , He'll always be all too ready to Do The Wrong Thing, but at least he's increasingly willing to give The Right Thing ten seconds' consideration first).

I do want the anklet to stay because I think it's dramatic function and symbolic nature are still too well embedded in the shows premise and the characters as they are evolving to lose it yet. Its a reminder of the inherent, and in my opinion absolutely vital, power imbalance between Neal and just about everyone, which brings with it the dramatic flow of how Neal as main character works around with and over that imbalance (in real life, power imbalances are bad. In drama, they're terrific, especially with someone like Neal pushing on one side and Peter trying to keep a balance on the other). It's a symbol of the purely platonic but unique and very nifty hint of "24/7 bondage" in the whole setup, and of the metaphorical cage that is one of our show's unique McGuffins. It's a reminder that Neal is not an ex-con he's still a criminal, maybe on the way to somewhere inbetween the cops and the robbers but not (IMO) even halfway there yet.

I think they'll hold on to the anklet for as long as the writers can think up excuses to do so... it works.

Edited by LRaine, 03 March 2012 - 05:38 PM.


#234 LI_Ann

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 09:08 PM

Wow! There's so much to digest on the last two or three pages.

I have another theory about Kramer. What if Kramer wanted Neal in Washington to forge some pieces of art that he had taken? He knows Neal is a master forger. It seems rather late in Kramer's career for him to want to be a big closer unless he wants to go out in a blaze of glory. Maybe he just wants to get out and retire and not have his misdeeds exposed. Enter Neal Caffrey who is very capable of duplicating works of art.

Kramer would have known the music box sent to DC was a fake. He'd have to be an idiot not to know that. It was made of wood and didn't have amber all over it. I think Kramer had some connection to Fowler. He's not high enough on the FBI food chain to be the one who was pulling Fowler's strings but maybe he's been working with whoever was. And maybe I'm all wrong :P

ETA: This should be in the Kramer's Agenda thread :(

Edited by LI_Ann, 03 March 2012 - 09:08 PM.

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#235 Pamela11

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:30 PM

I don't think the anklet ever served much of a moral purpose (and I'm one of those who doesn't actually think Neal's reformed per se all that much or ever will; what has happened is that he's learned to care about people who have a normal life, and to want in on that, so will be less likely to break the law, err, openly ;) , He'll always be all too ready to Do The Wrong Thing, but at least he's increasingly willing to give The Right Thing ten seconds' consideration first).

I do want the anklet to stay because I think it's dramatic function and symbolic nature are still too well embedded in the shows premise and the characters as they are evolving to lose it yet. Its a reminder of the inherent, and in my opinion absolutely vital, power imbalance between Neal and just about everyone, which brings with it the dramatic flow of how Neal as main character works around with and over that imbalance (in real life, power imbalances are bad. In drama, they're terrific, especially with someone like Neal pushing on one side and Peter trying to keep a balance on the other). It's a symbol of the purely platonic but unique and very nifty hint of "24/7 bondage" in the whole setup, and of the metaphorical cage that is one of our show's unique McGuffins. It's a reminder that Neal is not an ex-con he's still a criminal, maybe on the way to somewhere inbetween the cops and the robbers but not (IMO) even halfway there yet.

I think they'll hold on to the anklet for as long as the writers can think up excuses to do so... it works.


Everyone has put forth articulate and valid reasons for the anklet to remain or be dispensed with. I'm in LRaine's camp; it's a strong and captivating prop. B) I love it.

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#236 UpstateRules

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:19 AM

The debate about rather Neal has reformed, and therefore no longer needs to be "tethered" with the anklet, or he's an incorrigible and unrepentent con, is interesting. I think his conviction (personal not criminal ;) ) that he is a bad seed, forever tainted by his father's misdeeds, colors everything Neal does. He doesn't believe in self-will. Which is really sad in the face of Peter's dogged determination to make him want to choose the "straight and narrow" path.

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#237 Beholder

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:23 AM

Watched the ep....yet again & can I say that I want my S3 DVD right now I can't wait for it to hit the streets officially. :)

Anyway, loved how El, Sara , Neal & Peter were all wearing ...shades of gray....was Kramer too? I'm not sure... as I was sitting WAY to close to my big screen TV...didn't want to miss anything. :rolleyes: LOL

I want Neal to make it...SSSsssooooo, so bad.

B

#238 suebsg9

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:34 AM

Watched the ep....yet again & can I say that I want my S3 DVD right now I can't wait for it to hit the streets officially. :)

Anyway, loved how El, Sara , Neal & Peter were all wearing ...shades of gray....was Kramer too? I'm not sure... as I was sitting WAY to close to my big screen TV...didn't want to miss anything. :rolleyes: LOL

I want Neal to make it...SSSsssooooo, so bad.

B


Guessing with the season three dvds we have to wait until season four comes out but thank god for best buy cards for xmas get mine for free :)

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#239 usurper

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:45 AM

I know you'll all hate me for this, but I wish this had been the end of the series. It's the perfect ending I always wanted: Neal and Mozzie escape with (some of) the treasure and Peter doesn't have to feel the sting of betrayal that would have come with Neal running off against his wishes.

#240 Zetsuei

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:13 AM

I know you'll all hate me for this, but I wish this had been the end of the series. It's the perfect ending I always wanted: Neal and Mozzie escape with (some of) the treasure and Peter doesn't have to feel the sting of betrayal that would have come with Neal running off against his wishes.


I think the same . It would have been a great ending, more powerful than a " Happily Ever After " could be .





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