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#1 Surreal44

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:44 PM

Thanks to CathysOpinion and LiAnn for agreeing to this idea!

Welcome to the Spoiler Discussion Thread. As the title suggests, purpose of this thread is to discuss the spoilers posted in The Spoiler Thread . This thread will contain spoilers. That means that information released through media, the network, or the writers on un-aired episodes will be in this thread. If you are a spoilerphobe, this is not the thread for you to be in! :-)

I've created this thread so that we can comment, discuss, and yes, even have spirited debates about the spoilers. This way, the spoiler thread can be clear of all discussion, so that those who simply want to read spoilers may do so, and not have to wade through 70 posts to find one. :-)

There are just a few notes on the rules of this thread, so bear with me. :-)

1. NO SIDES SPOILERS. Sides are sold or released to persons who are attempting to get a role in a television show or movie. They are not really meant to be released to the general public, unless the network or authors of the work wish to do so.

Joe Henderson, one of the writers who graces the forum with his presence, has asked us to not talk about them on this forum. Please respect his wishes.

This means we do not discuss the sides. We do not post them. This is not open for debate, as the writers have stated what their wishes are.


2. No need for spoiler tags here. This is a spoiler friendly thread. The point is to keep the flow open and easy for everyone to follow.

3. Have fun! Remember, we're all here because we like the show. We all have our opinions, and our favorites, but ultimately, we're here because the writers, actors, and crew have all come together to create something that we all feel passionate about! :-)

Go forth, and discuss!

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#2 CathysOpinion

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:52 PM

Thanks for hosting the thread, Surreal!
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#3 LI_Ann

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:21 PM

Thanks to CathysOpinion and LiAnn for agreeing to this idea!

Welcome to the Spoiler Discussion Thread. As the title suggests, purpose of this thread is to discuss the spoilers posted in The Spoiler Thread . This thread will contain spoilers. That means that information released through media, the network, or the writers on un-aired episodes will be in this thread. If you are a spoilerphobe, this is not the thread for you to be in! :-)

I've created this thread so that we can comment, discuss, and yes, even have spirited debates about the spoilers. This way, the spoiler thread can be clear of all discussion, so that those who simply want to read spoilers may do so, and not have to wade through 70 posts to find one. :-)

There are just a few notes on the rules of this thread, so bear with me. :-)

1. NO SIDES SPOILERS. Sides are sold or released to persons who are attempting to get a role in a television show or movie. They are not really meant to be released to the general public, unless the network or authors of the work wish to do so.

Joe Henderson, one of the writers who graces the forum with his presence, has asked us to not talk about them on this forum. Please respect his wishes.

This means we do not discuss the sides. We do not post them. This is not open for debate, as the writers have stated what their wishes are.


2. No need for spoiler tags here. This is a spoiler friendly thread. The point is to keep the flow open and easy for everyone to follow.

3. Have fun! Remember, we're all here because we like the show. We all have our opinions, and our favorites, but ultimately, we're here because the writers, actors, and crew have all come together to create something that we all feel passionate about! :-)

Go forth, and discuss!


Excellent! :)

You're right about people going into the Official Spoiler thread for information having to go through pages and pages of our discussions. We are a chatty bunch and frequently go off on tangents.

I just watched the two new clips and finally discovered who Estelle is. Why didn't I know that Estelle was a carrier pigeon? At least now I know how Neal gets in touch with Mozzie.

So far my favorite clip was the one where Neal and Peter were sitting down talking. I can only assume that scene happens after the new one when they go to the empty warehouse because Peter is calmer but emotionally drained. In the warehouse, his reaction to learning Mozzie has the treasure was anger (totally justified) but at that moment Peter still thinks Neal was involved in taking the treasure which he wasn't and that's the vital missing piece I want to see.

I don't understand how Diana and Jones could be working on "finding Elizabeth" while Peter is keeping the Keller connection a secret from the FBI. Did I miss something in that clip? In one of the clips Diana says something about going "door to door" if they have to and I can only assume she's speaking to a group of FBI Agents. I can understand Diana and Jones working together without telling the FBI. They've done it before but how would they enlist other agents to assist without the FBI finding out about Keller? Wouldn't it be considered "obstruction of justice" for FBI agents to know who the kidnapper is (not just a suspect or a person of interest) and not tell the FBI? That would definitely make it more difficult for them to find Elizabeth.

Edited by LI_Ann, 12 January 2012 - 08:28 PM.

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#4 CathysOpinion

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:41 PM

Excellent! :)

You're right about people going into the Official Spoiler thread for information having to go through pages and pages of our discussions. We are a chatty bunch and frequently go off on tangents.

I just watched the two new clips and finally discovered who Estelle is. Why didn't I know that Estelle was a carrier pigeon? At least now I know how Neal gets in touch with Mozzie.

So far my favorite clip was the one where Neal and Peter were sitting down talking. I can only assume that scene happens after the new one when they go to the empty warehouse because Peter is calmer but emotionally drained. In the warehouse, his reaction to learning Mozzie has the treasure was anger (totally justified) but at that moment Peter still thinks Neal was involved in taking the treasure which he wasn't and that's the vital missing piece I want to see.

I don't understand how Diana and Jones could be working on "finding Elizabeth" while Peter is keeping the Keller connection a secret from the FBI. Did I miss something in that clip? In one of the clips Diana says something about going "door to door" if they have to and I can only assume she's speaking to a group of FBI Agents. I can understand Diana and Jones working together without telling the FBI. They've done it before but how would they enlist other agents to assist without the FBI finding out about Keller? Wouldn't it be considered "obstruction of justice" for FBI agents to know who the kidnapper is (not just a suspect or a person of interest) and not tell the FBI? That would definitely make it more difficult for them to find Elizabeth.


I think Peter meant that Diana and Jones were handling the official investigation of trying to locate Elizabeth (even though Diana and Jones don't work for missing persons) and that he and Neal were going 'under the radar' so to speak to find Keller. Diana and Jones probably don't know what the ransom is. Peter dragged Neal outside to talk about it.
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#5 bbeyes

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:55 PM

Great idea for a thread, Surreal!

Estelle, the carrier pigeon! I love it when Jeff Eastin and the writers bring forward seemingly meaningless snippets from past episodes and utilize them is such cool ways.

Intriguing that Peter is keeping the fact of Keller from the FBI investigation! He is definitely "going rogue" with Neal & Mozzie and plans to run his own parallel investigation to find and save Elizabeth. When it comes to El, not surprising to me that Peter is willing to go off the reservation with Neal & Mozzie, doing whatever it takes, no matter what laws are bent or broken. Can't wait to see Kramer's reaction to that!

The scene in the empty warehouse is especially eerie. For Peter to be having that visceral reaction in such an empty, cavernous space adds to the emotion.

Is it January 17th yet??!!!!!




#6 WCFan

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:59 PM

Excellent! :)

So far my favorite clip was the one where Neal and Peter were sitting down talking. I can only assume that scene happens after the new one when they go to the empty warehouse because Peter is calmer but emotionally drained. In the warehouse, his reaction to learning Mozzie has the treasure was anger (totally justified) but at that moment Peter still thinks Neal was involved in taking the treasure which he wasn't and that's the vital missing piece I want to see.



First, thank you for starting this thread. There is so much going on in the other spoiler thread that I was getting lost.

Of course, my favorite scene also was the one where Neal and Peter are talking and Neal tells him that he stayed and why he stayed. However, from what some other people have said, we're still in for a bumpy ride. I'm not really looking forward to 3 more episodes of this tension. I want my bromance back!

There's also another thing that I wanted to discuss. Jeff Eastin tweeted that he was thinking of doing a flashback episode with Keller. My first thought was ... yuck! I'm not fond of flashbacks and I hate Keller, so it didn't appeal to me. Then, I read Jeff's "sneak peak" where Neal and Keller talk about the time Neal was "almost" caught in bed with a princess but instead ended up on a ledge with nothing but a gold serving tray covering his butt! Now there's an episode I'd like to see!

#7 WildHorseFantasy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:06 PM

I think Peter meant that Diana and Jones were handling the official investigation of trying to locate Elizabeth (even though Diana and Jones don't work for missing persons) and that he and Neal were going 'under the radar' so to speak to find Keller. Diana and Jones probably don't know what the ransom is. Peter dragged Neal outside to talk about it.


I suppose the Keller end could be common knowledge as long as they assume it's a 'revenge' kidnapping instead of a ransom demand.

I found it interesting Neal told Peter he and Mozzie had a falling out, but why didn't he tell him he'd decided not to go? Does he just think it's the wrong time for it? :huh:

Keller and Neal were friends once? Was Keller a nicer guy back then or did Neal not recognize he was a cold blooded creep right away? I wonder.

Oh boy. The fate of Elizabeth and our heroes depend on.....a carrier pigeon named Estelle finding Mozzie in time! :o

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#8 Surreal44

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:13 PM

Excellent! :)

You're right about people going into the Official Spoiler thread for information having to go through pages and pages of our discussions. We are a chatty bunch and frequently go off on tangents.

I just watched the two new clips and finally discovered who Estelle is. Why didn't I know that Estelle was a carrier pigeon? At least now I know how Neal gets in touch with Mozzie.

So far my favorite clip was the one where Neal and Peter were sitting down talking. I can only assume that scene happens after the new one when they go to the empty warehouse because Peter is calmer but emotionally drained. In the warehouse, his reaction to learning Mozzie has the treasure was anger (totally justified) but at that moment Peter still thinks Neal was involved in taking the treasure which he wasn't and that's the vital missing piece I want to see.

I don't understand how Diana and Jones could be working on "finding Elizabeth" while Peter is keeping the Keller connection a secret from the FBI. Did I miss something in that clip? In one of the clips Diana says something about going "door to door" if they have to and I can only assume she's speaking to a group of FBI Agents. I can understand Diana and Jones working together without telling the FBI. They've done it before but how would they enlist other agents to assist without the FBI finding out about Keller? Wouldn't it be considered "obstruction of justice" for FBI agents to know who the kidnapper is (not just a suspect or a person of interest) and not tell the FBI? That would definitely make it more difficult for them to find Elizabeth.


I remembered "Estelle the Pigeon" because she trended on Twitter the night that one episode aired. :-D

Both of those scenes that have shown up as spoilers are amazing. The acting is superb, especially by Tim DeKay (but Matt is excellent as well).

My guess is that Peter keeps Jones and Diana from knowing, or asks them not to tell the other agents that Keller is involved. Because Keller is so tricky, Peter may want to keep the FBI out of the loop, because they'll be tied to procedure and routine, and Keller knows the ins and outs of how they think.

But in RL, yeah, that would be a major problem. Artistic license at its best.

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#9 LI_Ann

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:21 PM

I remembered "Estelle the Pigeon" because she trended on Twitter the night that one episode aired. :-D

Both of those scenes that have shown up as spoilers are amazing. The acting is superb, especially by Tim DeKay (but Matt is excellent as well).

My guess is that Peter keeps Jones and Diana from knowing, or asks them not to tell the other agents that Keller is involved. Because Keller is so tricky, Peter may want to keep the FBI out of the loop, because they'll be tied to procedure and routine, and Keller knows the ins and outs of how they think.

But in RL, yeah, that would be a major problem. Artistic license at its best.


I missed the whole "Estelle the Pigeon" reference in whatever episode it was mentioned. I've seen every episode of S1 and S2 (except Under the Radar) about a bazillion times but I've only watched the first 10 episodes of S3 once, except for On Guard. I started a rewatch a while back and quit after one episode so I have to assume we were introduced to Estelle in S3.

I'm way too lazy to go find it but someone (ASLAN?) brought up the procedural aspect of White Collar and called it weak (I think). Like I said, I'm too lazy to go check. There have been times that I've been critical of the way Peter or the FBI has handled a situation and it was interpreted as being critical of Peter. It's not Peter....and it's not the FBI. You called it. It's the artistic license that allows for the fly by the seat of your pants method of law enforcement that crops up from time to time. Why am I bringing this up now? It's because Diana and Jones are working on the Elizabeth's kidnapping and you mentioned that in real life, that would be a problem. That would be true whether or not they were told about Keller. Not only would they not be working on the case because the FBI has a separate kidnapping division but even if they somehow managed to tie it into white collar crimes, they're too personally involved. All law enforcement agencies have strict rules about their agents, officers, sheriffs, deputies, etc. working on cases that have any connection to their personal lives. At best, they would be stuck in the office doing background work and not out on the street actively participation in this investigation.

Edited by LI_Ann, 12 January 2012 - 11:22 PM.

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#10 bbeyes

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:21 AM

I missed the whole "Estelle the Pigeon" reference in whatever episode it was mentioned. I've seen every episode of S1 and S2 (except Under the Radar) about a bazillion times but I've only watched the first 10 episodes of S3 once, except for On Guard. I started a rewatch a while back and quit after one episode so I have to assume we were introduced to Estelle in S3.

If I recall correctly, Estelle the Carrier Pigeon was first mentioned by Mozzie in "Forging Bonds", which may be why you don't recall it (I know you don't like flashback eps, Ann, so you probably haven't re-watched that ep much).




#11 Duffy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:00 AM

Excellent! :)

You're right about people going into the Official Spoiler thread for information having to go through pages and pages of our discussions. We are a chatty bunch and frequently go off on tangents.

I just watched the two new clips and finally discovered who Estelle is. Why didn't I know that Estelle was a carrier pigeon? At least now I know how Neal gets in touch with Mozzie.

So far my favorite clip was the one where Neal and Peter were sitting down talking. I can only assume that scene happens after the new one when they go to the empty warehouse because Peter is calmer but emotionally drained. In the warehouse, his reaction to learning Mozzie has the treasure was anger (totally justified) but at that moment Peter still thinks Neal was involved in taking the treasure which he wasn't and that's the vital missing piece I want to see.

I don't understand how Diana and Jones could be working on "finding Elizabeth" while Peter is keeping the Keller connection a secret from the FBI. Did I miss something in that clip? In one of the clips Diana says something about going "door to door" if they have to and I can only assume she's speaking to a group of FBI Agents. I can understand Diana and Jones working together without telling the FBI. They've done it before but how would they enlist other agents to assist without the FBI finding out about Keller? Wouldn't it be considered "obstruction of justice" for FBI agents to know who the kidnapper is (not just a suspect or a person of interest) and not tell the FBI? That would definitely make it more difficult for them to find Elizabeth.


I just came here out of curiosity as to why you need another spoiler thread. I won't be back so really none of my business, just being me. However, won't this get just as congested as the original one with people chatting and new people having to go through pages and pages of talk and tangents? :huh: ;)

#12 LI_Ann

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:16 AM

If I recall correctly, Estelle the Carrier Pigeon was first mentioned by Mozzie in "Forging Bonds", which may be why you don't recall it (I know you don't like flashback eps, Ann, so you probably haven't re-watched that ep much).


Thanks for letting me know. I forgot about that one and should have it as one of the episodes I didn't watch more than once. I really do hate flashback episodes.


I just came here out of curiosity as to why you need another spoiler thread. I won't be back so really none of my business, just being me. However, won't this get just as congested as the original one with people chatting and new people having to go through pages and pages of talk and tangents? :huh: ;)


The difference is that this is a discussion thread so it should get congested and go off on tangents while the other one would be information/links to new spoilers. Now anyone just looking for a new spoiler won't get bogged down with pages and pages of discussions about them.

Edited by LI_Ann, 13 January 2012 - 11:17 AM.

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#13 CathysOpinion

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:52 PM

I just came here out of curiosity as to why you need another spoiler thread. I won't be back so really none of my business, just being me. However, won't this get just as congested as the original one with people chatting and new people having to go through pages and pages of talk and tangents? :huh: ;)


It is difficult to post a speculation in the Season 3 thread without mentioning spoiler information. Plus discussing the spoilers and adding speculations to it was really bogging down the Spoiler thread and spoiler junkies who just wanted to see the latest promo, picture, etc, were going through withdrawals.

This new thread is giving everybody what they want.

Edited by CathysOpinion, 13 January 2012 - 01:52 PM.

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#14 ASLAN95

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:10 PM

I missed the whole "Estelle the Pigeon" reference in whatever episode it was mentioned. I've seen every episode of S1 and S2 (except Under the Radar) about a bazillion times but I've only watched the first 10 episodes of S3 once, except for On Guard. I started a rewatch a while back and quit after one episode so I have to assume we were introduced to Estelle in S3.

I'm way too lazy to go find it but someone (ASLAN?) brought up the procedural aspect of White Collar and called it weak (I think). Like I said, I'm too lazy to go check. There have been times that I've been critical of the way Peter or the FBI has handled a situation and it was inter preted as being critical of Peter. It's not Peter....and it's not the FBI. You called it. It's the artistic license that allows for the fly by the seat of your pants method of law enforcement that crops up from time to time. Why am I bringing this up now? It's because Diana and Jones are working on the Elizabeth's kidnapping and you mentioned that in real life, that would be a problem. That would be true whether or not they were told about Keller. Not only would they not be working on the case because the FBI has a separate kidnapping division but even if they somehow managed to tie it into white collar crimes, they're too personally involved. All law enforcement agencies have strict rules about their agents, officers, sheriffs, deputies, etc. working on cases that have any connection to their personal lives. At best, they would be stuck in the office doing background work and not out on the street actively participation in this investigation.

Yes , it was me that mentioned that the procedurals are weak. One of the reasons that the pilot is so good was that it actually used the correct law about chasing a fugitive and therefore do not need a warrant. The legal eagles were in the air about that fact was correct. However in order to use Neal the con in undercover work and then arrest the perp, the legalities have gone out the window. We can suspend belief, but if it gets all character driven and not plot driven then the show also fails. So instead we are increasing the drama between Peter and Neal. This is a classic method that writers use they put the main hero( Neal) in the most impossible situation and then make him solve it.

To those who have said they watch the show for the entertainment and witty chatter and the fun of the characters , this has been a big change. For those of us who also demand a real plot, the mythic arc has overcome the deficiencies of the logic in the procedurals. That is why I like the treasure story. Like Poala I can perfectly understand Mozzie and Neal's interest in the treasure. If someone gave me billions in art, I would not give it up to the law. Mozzie did not betray Neal as he took whatever was handy and that was Neal's artwork. Neal was thrilled that the art was saved and now his. Neal's and Mozzie's future was assured. The only fly in the ointment is Peter. So Peter had to be neutralized which Neal attempted to do. Mozzie did not betray the Neal he knew, which was the con and thief.. However Neal's inability to decide did lead to Mozzie's impatience. Mozzie worried about the treasure going public and he was right. Mozzie did not betray Neal. Neal more than Mozzie betrayed Mozzie with Neal's inexplicable desire to continue his friendship with a FBI agent that was actively targeting him. Even before the treasure , Peter refused to extend trust when Neal had shown how much Neal trusted him. Mozzie ahd been friends for years with Neal. Peter was a recent friend, yet Neal chose Peter over Mozzie after Mozzie had taken a bullet for his effort in solving Neal's mystery. Mozzie even offered 50 % of the treasure to Neal when Mozzie did all the work.

Neal and Mozzie had separated,. Mozzie was in his rights to refuse further contact knowing Neal's loyalties now lay with Peter the FBI agent. Mozzie has no idea that El was kidnapped.

I am not angry at Mozzie for involving Neal. I am angry for Mozzie being stupid and in a rush. I am really upset with Sara, the supposedly smart woman who spooked and gave info with an ISP address. I cant understand at all how she thought giving an ISP address to an Interpol agent would help Neal, Mozzie or Sara at all other than to implicate them in a theft.

Edited by ASLAN95, 13 January 2012 - 09:14 PM.


#15 CathysOpinion

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:21 PM

true, but once again his intentions were good, unlike Peter's(sorry cant help myself). You can see in 3.1 that at first Neal was impressed and happy with the plan, and this was the Neal that Mozzie knew, for old Neal it would be the the best thing ever.

he didnt know it was on the manifest, Keller killed Mozzies old friend, went after Sara to get to Neal. Sara supposedly to protect them( in reality she was only protecting herself if he really was FBI, that would incriminate Neal and seal his jail sentence) gave Keller the code or sth to the treasure. Thanks to Sara, Keller was now sure about the treasure. Mozzie wasn't protecting himself as much as he was Neal. Now, if Neal did'nt hide the manifest there would be no problem. They are both guilty here. Neal lied to him about the manifest while Mozzie went behind Neal's back.

the possibility of simply waiting out Neal's sentence was never mentioned by Neal nor Mozzie, so I see the rush to move it more as a plot device than anything else.
When Mozzie left, I am sure he took the copy of the manifest with him, so the FBI would never hear about the treasure again. Peter would have to eventually drop the case, and Neal would work for FBI as long as he felt like it.
As for Keller- he is a resourceful man, he found out Neal had the treasure. Keller was already teasing Neal about becoming a lawman and saw his torment, so piecing things together and figuring out that Mozzie left with the treasure wouldn't be that hard for him. Keller would go after Mozzie. Also it is because of Keller,among other things, that Mozzie gave Neal the ultimatum. They just couldn't stay in NY with the treasure

My point is they are both guilty in this situation. It is not fair to blame Mozzie for everything


Moving this from the Spoiler Thread.

Mozzie seems to turn a deaf hear when Neal talks. In Out of the Box, Neal tells Mozzie that happily ever after was from him, in Countermeasures, Neal mentions that he believes Byron hit the final score because he had June and a home. In Payback, Neal mentions that he was all set to propose to Kate and settle down. So how could Mozzie even presume that Neal would be happy with billions of dollars of art?

Yep, Mozzie didn't know the Degas wasn't on the manifest. Even before they knew the manifest existed, Neal said to take the time. In On Guard, David Lawrence sat on 60 million dollars waiting for the right time. Mozzie couldn't even wait for the warehouse fire to be put out.

Sara was conned by Keller. At least she immediately went to tell Neal what happened.

We saw why Neal lied about the manifest. Here's Mozzie, ready to celebrate that Sara was gone and here's Peter, telling Neal that he deserved to be happy and offering to help anyway he can. Then, here's Neal. Betraying Peter to get a copy of the manifest so Mozzie can sell stuff to buy an island. What would you do?

Keller is resourceful and even without Sara's info would have found out about the treasure. He would have gotten Neal and then gotten Mozzie.

Mozzie leaving with a copy of the manifest would not stop the FBI about hearing about the treasure. The original was with DC Art Crimes, Peter had a copy, and Neal's copy was the photo he took with his phone.

Mozzie started everything, so I do think it's fair that he gets the blunt of the blame.
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If you have any questions or comments, please post them in the WC Forum Online Community thread.

If you are looking for a specific discussion, then take a took at Ann's very nifty index, WC Forum Index.

#16 LI_Ann

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:06 PM

Yes , it was me that mentioned that the procedurals are weak. One of the reasons that the pilot is so good was that it actually used the correct law about chasing a fugitive and therefore do not need a warrant. The legal eagles were in the air about that fact was correct. However in order to use Neal the con in undercover work and then arrest the perp, the legalities have gone out the window. We can suspend belief, but if it gets all character driven and not plot driven then the show also fails. So instead we are increasing the drama between Peter and Neal. This is a classic method that writers use they put the main hero( Neal) in the most impossible situation and then make him solve it.

To those who have said they watch the show for the entertainment and witty chatter and the fun of the characters , this has been a big change. For those of us who also demand a real plot, the mythic arc has overcome the deficiencies of the logic in the procedurals. That is why I like the treasure story. Like Poala I can perfectly understand Mozzie and Neal's interest in the treasure. If someone gave me billions in art, I would not give it up to the law. Mozzie did not betray Neal as he took whatever was handy and that was Neal's artwork. Neal was thrilled that the art was saved and now his. Neal's and Mozzie's future was assured. The only fly in the ointment is Peter. So Peter had to be neutralized which Neal attempted to do. Mozzie did not betray the Neal he knew, which was the con and thief.. However Neal's inability to decide did lead to Mozzie's impatience. Mozzie worried about the treasure going public and he was right. Mozzie did not betray Neal. Neal more than Mozzie betrayed Mozzie with Neal's inexplicable desire to continue his friendship with a FBI agent that was actively targeting him. Even before the treasure , Peter refused to extend trust when Neal had shown how much Neal trusted him. Mozzie ahd been friends for years with Neal. Peter was a recent friend, yet Neal chose Peter over Mozzie after Mozzie had taken a bullet for his effort in solving Neal's mystery. Mozzie even offered 50 % of the treasure to Neal when Mozzie did all the work.

Neal and Mozzie had separated,. Mozzie was in his rights to refuse further contact knowing Neal's loyalties now lay with Peter the FBI agent. Mozzie has no idea that El was kidnapped.

I am not angry at Mozzie for involving Neal. I am angry for Mozzie being stupid and in a rush. I am really upset with Sara, the supposedly smart woman who spooked and gave info with an ISP address. I cant understand at all how she thought giving an ISP address to an Interpol agent would help Neal, Mozzie or Sara at all other than to implicate them in a theft.


I thought you were the one who commented on the weak procedural aspects of White Collar. It's good to know my memory is still working.

I am one of those fans who watch the show for the entertainment and witty chatter and the fun of the characters. It's my guilty pleasure and I miss that show. You're right; it was a big change and not one I liked. It has to be difficult to try and reach the widest audience because everyone's taste is so different. That said, I don't know if it's necessarily a good idea to make such a radical change in your third season. I believe that many people are attracted to shows before their pilot episodes hit the air. The promos for White Collar were so good and the Pilot episode so awesome, that I fell in love with it but it has changed.

I'm not sure your comparison to someone giving you billions of dollars of art equates to what Mozzie did. If someone gave it to me, I'd be happy to keep it. Mozzie wasn't handed the treasure. He stole it and in doing so detonated unstable explosives that could very well have killed someone, including Neal.

I'm not a fan of the treasure story. I didn't like it from the minute it was found and identified. Perhaps it's my distaste for anything associated with the Nazis. Maybe it's because I thought it was too far fetched. Even though U-boats have been found (one off the coast of New Jersey).....a U-boat filled with priceless works of art off the coast of Coney Island was just something I couldn't wrap my head around.

If anyone is interested in the historical aspects of U-boats found after WWII, PBS had a special about it a while back. Here's the link to their website and lots of information about the U-boats that were found. PBS U-Boats

Here's an interesting coincidence about the U-Boat found off the coast of New Jersey. Originally it was thought to have gone down as a result of being hit by depth charges from the destroyer USS Fowler. :P

U-869
Most recent discovery of a U-boat, whose actual location and fate underscore the uncertainties of World War II submarine warfare.

Type: IX C/40
Built: Deschimag AG Weser, Bremen
Keel laid: 5 April 1943
Launched: 5 October 1943
Commissioned: 26 January 1944
Commander: KL Hellmut Neuerburg
Fate: Originally believed to have been lost off Casablanca on 28 February 1945 by depth-charge attacks by the destroyer USS Fowler and the French sub-chaser L'Indiscret. The positive identification of her remains about 60 miles east of the New Jersey coast indicates she never received the change in orders diverting her to the Gibraltar approaches and was possibly sunk by one of her own acoustic torpedoes.




Mozzie started everything, so I do think it's fair that he gets the blunt of the blame.


I do too. It will be really disappointing to see Mozzie skate after everything he did this season. I don't expect him to serve the long prison sentence he deserves but he has to face some consequences for his actions to be believable. If they end the treasure arc with Mozzie walking away unscathed, that would be absurd. That just can't happen, especially after torturing us with it for the past year.

Edited by LI_Ann, 13 January 2012 - 11:12 PM.

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#17 WildHorseFantasy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:42 PM

I thought you were the one who commented on the weak procedural aspects of White Collar. It's good to know my memory is still working.

I am one of those fans who watch the show for the entertainment and witty chatter and the fun of the characters. It's my guilty pleasure and I miss that show. You're right; it was a big change and not one I liked. It has to be difficult to try and reach the widest audience because everyone's taste is so different. That said, I don't know if it's necessarily a good idea to make such a radical change in your third season. I believe that many people are attracted to shows before their pilot episodes hit the air. The promos for White Collar were so good and the Pilot episode so awesome, that I fell in love with it but it has changed.

I'm not sure your comparison to someone giving you billions of dollars of art equates to what Mozzie did. If someone gave it to me, I'd be happy to keep it. Mozzie wasn't handed the treasure. He stole it and in doing so detonated unstable explosives that could very well have killed someone, including Neal.

I'm not a fan of the treasure story. I didn't like it from the minute it was found and identified. Perhaps it's my distaste for anything associated with the Nazis. Maybe it's because I thought it was too far fetched. Even though U-boats have been found (one off the coast of New Jersey).....a U-boat filled with priceless works of art off the coast of Coney Island was just something I couldn't wrap my head around.

If anyone is interested in the historical aspects of U-boats found after WWII, PBS had a special about it a while back. Here's the link to their website and lots of information about the U-boats that were found. PBS U-Boats

Here's an interesting coincidence about the U-Boat found off the coast of New Jersey. Originally it was thought to have gone down as a result of being hit by depth charges from the destroyer USS Fowler. :P

U-869
Most recent discovery of a U-boat, whose actual location and fate underscore the uncertainties of World War II submarine warfare.

Type: IX C/40
Built: Deschimag AG Weser, Bremen
Keel laid: 5 April 1943
Launched: 5 October 1943
Commissioned: 26 January 1944
Commander: KL Hellmut Neuerburg
Fate: Originally believed to have been lost off Casablanca on 28 February 1945 by depth-charge attacks by the destroyer USS Fowler and the French sub-chaser L'Indiscret. The positive identification of her remains about 60 miles east of the New Jersey coast indicates she never received the change in orders diverting her to the Gibraltar approaches and was possibly sunk by one of her own acoustic torpedoes.






I do too. It will be really disappointing to see Mozzie skate after everything he did this season. I don't expect him to serve the long prison sentence he deserves but he has to face some consequences for his actions to be believable. If they end the treasure arc with Mozzie walking away unscathed, that would be absurd. That just can't happen, especially after torturing us with it for the past year.


If Mozzie 'skates' I suspect it will be running and hiding, at least for a time. The only way he gets away unscathed is if he is protected: by Peter, who is in the only position to do so. And the only reason he would is if he is INCREDIBLY grateful for him helping save Elizabeth. But I can't see him being that enraged at Neal and then let Mozzie walk. He did trust Neal more than Mozzie and it's Neal who has a deal with him. But he's bound to be furious.

I'm watching Countdown again now and CRINGING at the way they gloss over the danger of Keller being around. They are shocked he is in town with so many after him and yet they don't think: this is bad, he is up to evil and danger is imminent? I know Neal is under a lot of pressure but this maybe the worst mistake he's ever made. Maybe he might've thought Peter would assume it was a ploy to distract him from the Degas if he said something. But he should've done it anyway. At least then they would've been warned. It might not have made a difference in the outcome (probably not) but at least Neal would've had that in his favor.

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#18 LI_Ann

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 12:49 AM

If Mozzie 'skates' I suspect it will be running and hiding, at least for a time. The only way he gets away unscathed is if he is protected: by Peter, who is in the only position to do so. And the only reason he would is if he is INCREDIBLY grateful for him helping save Elizabeth. But I can't see him being that enraged at Neal and then let Mozzie walk. He did trust Neal more than Mozzie and it's Neal who has a deal with him. But he's bound to be furious.

I'm watching Countdown again now and CRINGING at the way they gloss over the danger of Keller being around. They are shocked he is in town with so many after him and yet they don't think: this is bad, he is up to evil and danger is imminent? I know Neal is under a lot of pressure but this maybe the worst mistake he's ever made. Maybe he might've thought Peter would assume it was a ploy to distract him from the Degas if he said something. But he should've done it anyway. At least then they would've been warned. It might not have made a difference in the outcome (probably not) but at least Neal would've had that in his favor.


I just watched it too,. It was only the second time I've seen it but I just wasn't happy with S3 like I was with the first two seasons (except for Under the Radar). What struck me tonight was Peter's obvious disappointment in learning that the Degas was a forgery. We all know Neal forged and swapped the paintings but Peter didn't. It bothered me that he seemed unhappy to learn that he didn't find evidence against Neal. It's logical that Peter would suspect Neal. I accept that but after all they've been through, if I was Peter, I would have been relieved and happy. Tim DeKay is such a good actor and I fully realize that he's playing the part as it was written. What I don't understand (or like) is how that role was fashioned this season. Peter almost always looked angry and had a scowl on his face. That may have contributed to my reluctance to rewatch S3. It just wasn't fun to see.

Edited by LI_Ann, 14 January 2012 - 12:55 PM.

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#19 ASLAN95

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:30 AM

I thought you were the one who commented on the weak procedural aspects of White Collar. It's good to know my memory is still working.

I am one of those fans who watch the show for the entertainment and witty chatter and the fun of the characters. It's my guilty pleasure and I miss that show. You're right; it was a big change and not one I liked. It has to be difficult to try and reach the widest audience because everyone's taste is so different. That said, I don't know if it's necessarily a good idea to make such a radical change in your third season. I believe that many people are attracted to shows before their pilot episodes hit the air. The promos for White Collar were so good and the Pilot episode so awesome, that I fell in love with it but it has changed.

I'm not sure your comparison to someone giving you billions of dollars of art equates to what Mozzie did. If someone gave it to me, I'd be happy to keep it. Mozzie wasn't handed the treasure. He stole it and in doing so detonated unstable explosives that could very well have killed someone, including Neal.

I'm not a fan of the treasure story. I didn't like it from the minute it was found and identified. Perhaps it's my distaste for anything associated with the Nazis. Maybe it's because I thought it was too far fetched. Even though U-boats have been found (one off the coast of New Jersey).....a U-boat filled with priceless works of art off the coast of Coney Island was just something I couldn't wrap my head around.

If anyone is interested in the historical aspects of U-boats found after WWII, PBS had a special about it a while back. Here's the link to their website and lots of information about the U-boats that were found. PBS U-Boats

Here's an interesting coincidence about the U-Boat found off the coast of New Jersey. Originally it was thought to have gone down as a result of being hit by depth charges from the destroyer USS Fowler. :P

U-869
Most recent discovery of a U-boat, whose actual location and fate underscore the uncertainties of World War II submarine warfare.

Type: IX C/40
Built: Deschimag AG Weser, Bremen
Keel laid: 5 April 1943
Launched: 5 October 1943
Commissioned: 26 January 1944
Commander: KL Hellmut Neuerburg
Fate: Originally believed to have been lost off Casablanca on 28 February 1945 by depth-charge attacks by the destroyer USS Fowler and the French sub-chaser L'Indiscret. The positive identification of her remains about 60 miles east of the New Jersey coast indicates she never received the change in orders diverting her to the Gibraltar approaches and was possibly sunk by one of her own acoustic torpedoes.






I do too. It will be really disappointing to see Mozzie skate after everything he did this season. I don't expect him to serve the long prison sentence he deserves but he has to face some consequences for his actions to be believable. If they end the treasure arc with Mozzie walking away unscathed, that would be absurd. That just can't happen, especially after torturing us with it for the past year.


The pilot was so good because ,It had an unlikely idea that a con and FBI agent could work together. It also had a tight plot and the the legal facts were acknowledged. The logic was good. The characters were good, the dialog was excellent. A lot of people like the scene in the abandoned apt when Neal was arrested again when the agent had a conversation withe felon and not just a take down. That was unusual.

Neal did not do undercover work for the first two episodes. later on he did I really did like All In.

The second season was too fluffy and my son was getting bored. We already got used to the unlikely idea of agent and con and I really did not like the flash back episode. It lost of bit of the mystery of Neal Caffrey. The second season also was weak on the procedurals so it was losing the good plot and the only held by the friendship. That alone does not create a good story. So they had to spice it up. They still failed in season 3 to create good procedurals so the season was more dramatic and I personally liked that Neal had to use his skills to con Peter.

The tension had created a lot of chatter, ( see this board) of the Peter and Neal dynamic but the plot holes are starting to bother people. I see the show going another season and then start to fail. Horrible because I really like the character of Neal Caffrey. If they make his character change to be a faithful Peter follower then the show is lost.

If all the show is to provide light entertainment then it is no better than a sitcom which is all character driven and no plot. So the drama is important and so is plot story, dialog and characterizations. USA says is it character driven so it has unlikely characters, A burned agent which was fascinating but the myth took over the the story and became too convoluted. I stopped watching the show. They had a neurotic man solves police mysteries. His character bothered me. I could not stand it. The have failed doctor treating the rich. A female CIA agent that has to hide her work. A genius becomes a lawyer without the degree.

White Collar is the best of these shows partly because of the dynamic of Neal and Peter. the good writing, and the eye candy. Covert Affairs attempted to the same with a female lead but the stories are not that good and the relationships get sloppy. Suits have interesting characters and the stories are good. But if they ignore the legal aspect then the stories will lose fans. So plots are really important and the balance between myth and story has to be balanced.

I remember a show called the Equalizer, it had an older man that retired from the intelligence business and used his talents to help people. It was good There was no myth and the back story was ignored mostly. Numbers was a sharp intelligent show but the personal relationships are killing the show.

White Collar mostly reminds me of the show, To Catch a Thief. Eye candy and really interesting plots. The problem of White Collar is that the premise of the show of a con serving his sentence is ending. In order to continue they have to work toward a logical reason for Neal to work without coercion. If Neal does that by reforming then it is a show about an agent and junior agent and loses its zest.

I can see a crossover with Covert Affairs and White Collar since Neal has all the skills to be good agent. An ability to work with out rules and get the job done.

I love the show and wish it ran a standard 22 episode season rather than 16 with big breaks between halves of the season.

Edited by ASLAN95, 14 January 2012 - 06:34 AM.


#20 ASLAN95

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Posted 14 January 2012 - 06:54 AM

I just watched it too,. It was only the second time I've seen it but I just wasn't happy with S3 like I was with the first two seasons (except for Under the Radar). What struck me tonight was Peter's obvious disappointment in learning that the Degas was a forgery. We all know Neal forged and swapped the paintings but Peter didn't. It bothered me that he seemed unhappy to learn that he didn't find evidence against Neal. It's logical that Peter would suspect Neal. I accept that but after all they've been through, if I was Peter, I would have been relieved and happy. Tim DeKay is such a good actor and I fully realize that he's playing the part as it was written. What I don't understand (or like) is how that role was fashioned this season. Peter almost always looked angry and had a scowl on his face. That may have contributed to my reluctance to rematch S3. It just wasn't fun to see.


I have to agree with you about Peter's reaction. was he really so intent on proving Neal was guilty? That was what many of us have argued that Peter was not trying to save Neal from his actions, but really was intent on taking down Neal. That is why many of us have argued that Peter was in effect betraying his friendship with Neal. Neal's statement was so bittersweet in that he commiserated with Peter inability to prove Neal guilty. It takes a rare man to empathisize with his frenemy when he fails to get his friend. That why Neal;'s decision to stay was so emotionally satisfying.

That is why the emotional dynamic of Neal having to confess to Peter bothers me. It seems that in order to restore the friendship Peter has to realize the sacrifices of Neal. I can really enjoy the cat and mouse, but the inequality of the friendship is bothering me. Peter is losing his admiration for Neal and his sense of humor about the contest. That is why bringing in Keller and Elizabeth is so destroying to this relationship.


Those of you who have started to hate Mozzie for following his character getting Neal in trouble about the treasure fail to see that Peter is also losing followers by his actions. The benefits to Neal in this relationship is losing credibility. He lost his love, he lost his oldest friend , he lost the billions all to see that his new friendship is also failing. I hate to say the fan fics may be right Neal can't win even by dieing. I hate that scenario in the fan fics.

Maybe the writers have resolved that issue by only Peter being aware of the treasure but that compromises Peter's character. So this premier is fraught with fear by many of us.




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