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Kramer's Agenda


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Poll: Kramer's Agenda (59 member(s) have cast votes)

What's Kramer up to?

  1. Protect Peter (4 votes [6.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.56%

  2. Take Down Neal Caffrey for something (25 votes [40.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.98%

  3. Secret Agenda (32 votes [52.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.46%

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#1 WildHorseFantasy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:08 PM

I know it's floating around in many different threads. But If figured this guy had a big enough impact that maybe he should have his own.
My take so far:
with Peter: he acts like a caring mentor. Maybe he really is. At least, I can believe he was once.
Peter looks up to him obviously and it's rather unnerving and not something that happens much. This guy really must be impressive.
with Neal: treats him purely as a suspect.
Neal really does not need Kramer in his life. He has enough issues, thank you, being torn between Moz and Peter and going and leaving.

With both: There's the rub. Does he really think he's protecting Peter? Or has he changed from the days he was Peter's mentor and have a secret agenda?
Will Neal's apparent desire to stay convince him Peter might be right or will he try and drive them apart? Will he ever really have to work with Neal and see how Neal feels about Peter?

Does he have anything to do with all those mysterious lost threads of previous stories like Fowler and OPR? Or is he just a temporary challenge?

Any ideas?

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#2 CathysOpinion

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:13 PM

Great idea! I just have one suggestion. Could we also make this a thread to discuss the character also (so noone creates a thread for that? If you agree with me, then just change the title.

Edited by CathysOpinion, 16 August 2011 - 12:17 PM.

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#3 CathysOpinion

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:17 PM

I believe he has a secret agenda. When Kramer first met Neal he asked him if he knew anything about his cold case. I believe that he suspects that Neal committed the heist and Kramer wants to bring him down for it because replacing the artifacts with chocolate coins covered with foil is probably eating at Kramer because he wasn't able to solve the case.

I think he may jealous of Peter's success in getting Neal (even if it was only for bond forgery). I believe Kramer will do what it takes to break up Peter and Neal's relationship because HE (Kramer) wants to take Neal down.
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#4 Surreal44

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:56 PM

I believe he has a secret agenda. When Kramer first met Neal he asked him if he knew anything about his cold case. I believe that he suspects that Neal committed the heist and Kramer wants to bring him down for it because replacing the artifacts with chocolate coins covered with foil is probably eating at Kramer because he wasn't able to solve the case.

I think he may jealous of Peter's success in getting Neal (even if it was only for bond forgery). I believe Kramer will do what it takes to break up Peter and Neal's relationship because HE (Kramer) wants to take Neal down.


I was thinking that Kramer may want to use Neal for himself too. Maybe he wants to close out some of his case files before he retires, and Neal is the means to that goal.

Kramer does seem to care about Peter. He seemed convinced that Neal wanted to stay, but I think perhaps after Elizabeth is taken, Kramer will re-evaluate Peter's relationship with Neal, and maybe he will see a big problem there. His goal could be noble at first (to get Peter away from someone who endangers him), and then become something else entirely (I can close out some of my own cases!).

I am really interested in seeing how this story unfolds, and what Peter's reactions will be.

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#5 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:05 PM

This guy gave me the creeps big time. There is definitely something less than upstanding about Kramer. At *best* he's one of these ruthless-in-the-service-of-a-cause types, who believes he's doing what's right and will cut down anything and anyone to bring about the end he believes in. He's embittered because of his own CI experience and is, as others have suggested, Peter's "Mozzie," doing what he thinks is best for Peter regardless of the harm inflicted in the process. At worst, he's got a completely sinister agenda; he wants Neal isolated from Peter for reasons that have jack you- know- what to do with Peter's well-being, very possibly related to the case hinted at in which Neal apparently slipped Kramer's catch and, I'm guessing, made a fool of him in the process.
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#6 Surreal44

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:18 PM

This guy gave me the creeps big time. There is definitely something less than upstanding about Kramer. At *best* he's one of these ruthless-in-the-service-of-a-cause types, who believes he's doing what's right and will cut down anything and anyone to bring about the end he believes in. He's embittered because of his own CI experience and is, as others have suggested, Peter's "Mozzie," doing what he thinks is best for Peter regardless of the harm inflicted in the process. At worst, he's got a completely sinister agenda; he wants Neal isolated from Peter for reasons that have jack you- know- what to do with Peter's well-being, very possibly related to the case hinted at in which Neal apparently slipped Kramer's catch and, I'm guessing, made a fool of him in the process.


I'd kind of like a bad guy with an arc to have an agenda against Peter. We all know Neal ticks people off. All the time. :P But wouldn't it be fun if Kramer's agenda really is because he's super jealous of Peter? Getting rid of Neal, stealing him away, chasing him away, whatever his plan is, is done to hurt Peter, which he masks as concern.

-ignores plot bunnies- NO! I have too much other stuff to write. Go bother virgo.

---The End ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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#7 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:25 PM

I'd kind of like a bad guy with an arc to have an agenda against Peter. We all know Neal ticks people off. All the time. :P But wouldn't it be fun if Kramer's agenda really is because he's super jealous of Peter? Getting rid of Neal, stealing him away, chasing him away, whatever his plan is, is done to hurt Peter, which he masks as concern.

-ignores plot bunnies- NO! I have too much other stuff to write. Go bother virgo.



Don't you send those fluffy little bastards after me -- I'm not even supposed to be here right now. I have a cover letter to write and a desk in dire need of tidying. (Side note: God, do I hate writing cover letters.) ;) If you people would quit with the cool speculation I'd be accomplishing something right now. (Tscha, right.)
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#8 CathysOpinion

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:29 PM

I was thinking that Kramer may want to use Neal for himself too. Maybe he wants to close out some of his case files before he retires, and Neal is the means to that goal.

Kramer does seem to care about Peter. He seemed convinced that Neal wanted to stay, but I think perhaps after Elizabeth is taken, Kramer will re-evaluate Peter's relationship with Neal, and maybe he will see a big problem there. His goal could be noble at first (to get Peter away from someone who endangers him), and then become something else entirely (I can close out some of my own cases!).

I am really interested in seeing how this story unfolds, and what Peter's reactions will be.


I never thought that maybe Kramer wants Neal. Heck, he may be jealous because of Gotham famous cop and robber and their closure rate.
Cathy

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#9 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:33 PM

I'd kind of like a bad guy with an arc to have an agenda against Peter. We all know Neal ticks people off. All the time. :P But wouldn't it be fun if Kramer's agenda really is because he's super jealous of Peter? Getting rid of Neal, stealing him away, chasing him away, whatever his plan is, is done to hurt Peter, which he masks as concern.


Oh, but, regarding your idea about someone with an agenda against Peter...(yeah, I'm flying to my tasks for the day. Flying.)...it occurred to me at one point that it would make for a really cool storyline if they bring Neal's father into play and he's just a total psycho on this whole "I want my kid back" bender, and he goes all nemesis-y with Peter because Peter's usurped *his* place in Neal's life.

You could be right about Kramer being jealous of Peter's success, though. Particularly if Peter succeeded where Kramer failed in catching Neal. He gets to vent against the object of his jealousy *and* go after the punk kid who gave him the slip and humiliated him. Two birds, one stone, yummy dead birds.
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#10 Surreal44

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:35 PM

Don't you send those fluffy little bastards after me -- I'm not even supposed to be here right now. I have a cover letter to write and a desk in dire need of tidying. (Side note: God, do I hate writing cover letters.) ;) If you people would quit with the cool speculation I'd be accomplishing something right now. (Tscha, right.)


But see you're a fantastic writer! The plot bunnies are good, and I fed them Mary Sues and plot holes, so all the bad stuff is gone. ;-) I have to write at least four stories, I'm supposed to be editing a book, and I really need to flesh out this particularly annoying plot point in my book. Just clean your desk by putting everything into a box. \o/ Then it'll be clean. :D :D

Oh right, Kramer....

Regardless of what his motivations are, I really think instead of being a "bad guy", he's more of an antagonist. He may not have the purest of intentions or be the nicest person, but I'm hoping that he has more depth than, "I just want to make Neal's life diffcult, mwahahahahahahahahaha".

You know, maybe he's like Ruiz; not really likeable but not really ~evil~ either.

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#11 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 01:45 PM

But see you're a fantastic writer! The plot bunnies are good, and I fed them Mary Sues and plot holes, so all the bad stuff is gone. ;-) I have to write at least four stories, I'm supposed to be editing a book, and I really need to flesh out this particularly annoying plot point in my book. Just clean your desk by putting everything into a box. \o/ Then it'll be clean. :D :D

Oh right, Kramer....

Regardless of what his motivations are, I really think instead of being a "bad guy", he's more of an antagonist. He may not have the purest of intentions or be the nicest person, but I'm hoping that he has more depth than, "I just want to make Neal's life diffcult, mwahahahahahahahahaha".

You know, maybe he's like Ruiz; not really likeable but not really ~evil~ either.



Putting it in a box and setting the box on fire might work. (And you're a sweetie; thank you! God, I have so much fic to write. Good thing we're on break now, I guess.)

That could be where they're going with Kramer (antagonist rather than villain, that is.). Though I think he's going to have an ugly wake-up call if he gets too far between Peter and Neal; where they're at now isn't their norm, after all, and if he keeps at it once they're on the mend, I suspect it'll bite him in the ass sooner or later.
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#12 Surreal44

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:16 PM

I never thought that maybe Kramer wants Neal. Heck, he may be jealous because of Gotham famous cop and robber and their closure rate.


I have a box full of crazy ideas on character motivations, probably none of which mesh with the writers. :D :D But if Kramer were my own character, I would want him to carry some jealousy towards Peter, a lot of resentment towards Neal, and a desire to close down his open cases before he retires.

It makes him not-good, but not evil. Of course, now we have to see how exactly Kramer would go about screwing with Neal and Peter. I assume the medallion(s?) will play a role in that. Instead of actually framing Neal for something he didn't do, he's probably going to try to go about proving a crime Neal actually committed, right? That's what I would do, if I were conniving and attempting to do whatever it is Kramer is doing.

I do think there is a part of him that is greatly concerned for how Peter views Neal. That is probably the motivating factor, which will get buried under more selfish goals.

Is this season about crushing Peter's spirit? I'm kind of enjoying all the potential hurtiness of what may happen here.


Oh, but, regarding your idea about someone with an agenda against Peter...(yeah, I'm flying to my tasks for the day. Flying.)...it occurred to me at one point that it would make for a really cool storyline if they bring Neal's father into play and he's just a total psycho on this whole "I want my kid back" bender, and he goes all nemesis-y with Peter because Peter's usurped *his* place in Neal's life.

You could be right about Kramer being jealous of Peter's success, though. Particularly if Peter succeeded where Kramer failed in catching Neal. He gets to vent against the object of his jealousy *and* go after the punk kid who gave him the slip and humiliated him. Two birds, one stone, yummy dead birds.


OMG, that's a brilliant idea! YOU SHOULD WRITE THAT.

I like this idea of Kramer doing stuff out of jealousy. This will be my head canon until the show picks back up.

Putting it in a box and setting the box on fire might work. (And you're a sweetie; thank you! God, I have so much fic to write. Good thing we're on break now, I guess.)

That could be where they're going with Kramer (antagonist rather than villain, that is.). Though I think he's going to have an ugly wake-up call if he gets too far between Peter and Neal; where they're at now isn't their norm, after all, and if he keeps at it once they're on the mend, I suspect it'll bite him in the ass sooner or later.


I approve of your methods. Fire is always a good thing, so long as you contain it to just the office. ;-)

What I'm looking forward to the most, I think, is the potential for Peter to finally very publicly show some support for Neal. As much as Peter needs to hear that Neal chose him over the money, I think Neal needs to see Peter defend him.

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#13 CathysOpinion

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:36 PM

I have a box full of crazy ideas on character motivations, probably none of which mesh with the writers. :D :D But if Kramer were my own character, I would want him to carry some jealousy towards Peter, a lot of resentment towards Neal, and a desire to close down his open cases before he retires.

It makes him not-good, but not evil. Of course, now we have to see how exactly Kramer would go about screwing with Neal and Peter. I assume the medallion(s?) will play a role in that. Instead of actually framing Neal for something he didn't do, he's probably going to try to go about proving a crime Neal actually committed, right? That's what I would do, if I were conniving and attempting to do whatever it is Kramer is doing.

I do think there is a part of him that is greatly concerned for how Peter views Neal. That is probably the motivating factor, which will get buried under more selfish goals.

Is this season about crushing Peter's spirit? I'm kind of enjoying all the potential hurtiness of what may happen here.




OMG, that's a brilliant idea! YOU SHOULD WRITE THAT.

I like this idea of Kramer doing stuff out of jealousy. This will be my head canon until the show picks back up.



I approve of your methods. Fire is always a good thing, so long as you contain it to just the office. ;-)

What I'm looking forward to the most, I think, is the potential for Peter to finally very publicly show some support for Neal. As much as Peter needs to hear that Neal chose him over the money, I think Neal needs to see Peter defend him.


Yes, Neal does need to know if Peter will support and defend him and how far he's willing to go. Neal needs to know if he's important to Peter.
Cathy

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#14 Duffy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 02:51 PM

Regardless of what his motivations are, I really think instead of being a "bad guy", he's more of an antagonist. He may not have the purest of intentions or be the nicest person, but I'm hoping that he has more depth than, "I just want to make Neal's life diffcult, mwahahahahahahahahaha".

You know, maybe he's like Ruiz; not really likeable but not really ~evil~ either.


I must not be paying attention because I don't understand Kramer being evil. I go along with Surreal here. As for the "portrait medals", it's been 8 years. What would the time limit be for something like that to cause Neal trouble now? Could Kramer really prove anything anyway.

#15 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:15 PM

I must not be paying attention because I don't understand Kramer being evil. I go along with Surreal here. As for the "portrait medals", it's been 8 years. What would the time limit be for something like that to cause Neal trouble now? Could Kramer really prove anything anyway.


It's my current theory, based on but not limited to such pieces of evidence as that weird comment Kramer made in response to Neal saying he was the one who taught Peter everything he knows: "Well, I held a few things back," Kramer's general creepy invasiveness (dude is WAY more menacing than Keller could ever dream of being), the horrible, horrible influence on Peter's personality he had, and the fact that every time he was alone with Neal and Peter was out of earshot, Kramer took every open shot he had to demean Neal, make him doubt Peter's feelings towards him, and generally harass him. That wasn't poking a suspect to see what he gave away -- that was personal, and razor-edged. Kramer wasn't just observing, he was actively pulling at the threads of their relationship.

And I don't know what the statute of limitations on the Smithsonian/chocolate thing would be, but regardless of that, if Kramer feels Neal made a fool of him in getting away with it, there could be enough resentment there to grow a vendetta in. I don't know that Kramer could prove anything, but if he isn't out to get Neal via legal means, it wouldn't matter.

Edited by virgo79, 16 August 2011 - 03:17 PM.

“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#16 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:20 PM

What I'm looking forward to the most, I think, is the potential for Peter to finally very publicly show some support for Neal. As much as Peter needs to hear that Neal chose him over the money, I think Neal needs to see Peter defend him.


I am so on this wagon with you. BRING IT.

Has anyone even heard if Kramer's going to show up anymore? (Or are we not really supposed to talk about that here?)
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#17 Surreal44

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:27 PM

I must not be paying attention because I don't understand Kramer being evil. I go along with Surreal here. As for the "portrait medals", it's been 8 years. What would the time limit be for something like that to cause Neal trouble now? Could Kramer really prove anything anyway.


I don't know if Kramer necessarily wants to put Neal back in prison. I think Kramer could just want to use Neal to close out his cold cases. That's what I mean by Kramer not being ~evil~; his motivations could be not the purest, but I'm not certain I would say that his goals include just making Neal's life difficult.

It's my current theory, based on but not limited to such pieces of evidence as that weird comment Kramer made in response to Neal saying he was the one who taught Peter everything he knows: "Well, I held a few things back," Kramer's general creepy invasiveness (dude is WAY more menacing than Keller could ever dream of being), the horrible, horrible influence on Peter's personality he had, and the fact that every time he was alone with Neal and Peter was out of earshot, Kramer took every open shot he had to demean Neal, make him doubt Peter's feelings towards him, and generally harass him. That wasn't poking a suspect to see what he gave away -- that was personal, and razor-edged. Kramer wasn't just observing, he was actively pulling at the threads of their relationship.

And I don't know what the statute of limitations on the Smithsonian/chocolate thing would be, but regardless of that, if Kramer feels Neal made a fool of him in getting away with it, there could be enough resentment there to grow a vendetta in. I don't know that Kramer could prove anything, but if he isn't out to get Neal via legal means, it wouldn't matter.


I noticed it too, with Kramer really saying some things that were cruel. And he was pushing very hard for Peter to distance himself from Neal. I liked how he affected Peter, because it made Peter seem more human and vulnerable -- but I also didn't like how he affected Peter because I think he caused more of a rift between Neal and Peter.

All this hurtiness is so delicious. Yes, I'm a terrible person, why does everyone keep wondering about that? :D

I am so on this wagon with you. BRING IT.

Has anyone even heard if Kramer's going to show up anymore? (Or are we not really supposed to talk about that here?)


I have heard rumors to that affect, but I don't know for sure. ^^

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#18 CathysOpinion

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:47 PM

I am so on this wagon with you. BRING IT.

Has anyone even heard if Kramer's going to show up anymore? (Or are we not really supposed to talk about that here?)



That would be considered a spoiler and would need spoiler tags if posted here or posted without tags in the Official Spoiler Thread.

You may want to listen to Jeff Eastin's commentary for Countdown.
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If you have any questions or comments, please post them in the WC Forum Online Community thread.

If you are looking for a specific discussion, then take a took at Ann's very nifty index, WC Forum Index.

#19 virgo79

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 03:51 PM

I noticed it too, with Kramer really saying some things that were cruel. And he was pushing very hard for Peter to distance himself from Neal. I liked how he affected Peter, because it made Peter seem more human and vulnerable -- but I also didn't like how he affected Peter because I think he caused more of a rift between Neal and Peter.


I have heard rumors to that affect, but I don't know for sure. ^^



And he did that shift *so well.* It was subtle, in one sense, because you could see what a hardass he was and that never went away. But then if you compare the things he said *about* Neal to Peter, versus the things he said *to* Neal, when they were alone...totally different message.

I wrote about him in an ep reaction on my lj, and like I said there, he's very much an Iago-type character. He just finds that one little crack, that little doubt, and he works it, never saying anything blatantly incriminating, but just nurturing that doubt.
“Oh, my sweet summer child, what do you know of fear?
Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet
deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long
night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children
are born and live and die all in darkness while the direwolves grow gaunt and
hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods”

#20 WildHorseFantasy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:34 PM

Great idea! I just have one suggestion. Could we also make this a thread to discuss the character also (so noone creates a thread for that? If you agree with me, then just change the title.

Ah that was the idea, yes.

I believe he has a secret agenda. When Kramer first met Neal he asked him if he knew anything about his cold case. I believe that he suspects that Neal committed the heist and Kramer wants to bring him down for it because replacing the artifacts with chocolate coins covered with foil is probably eating at Kramer because he wasn't able to solve the case.

I think he may jealous of Peter's success in getting Neal (even if it was only for bond forgery). I believe Kramer will do what it takes to break up Peter and Neal's relationship because HE (Kramer) wants to take Neal down.


:lol: The chocolate coin case eats Kramer. For some reason, that sounds funny! And that would be embarrassing. While Neal is skilled enough to go way past replacing the gold with chocolate, I do recall he first boldly went up to Peter and gave him a sucker while Peter was in pursuit. I doubt Kramer would take it in quite the same vein. At least Peter got to eat the sucker in the end. I wonder if Kramer still has the chocolate! :D

That would be considered a spoiler and would need spoiler tags if posted here or posted without tags in the Official Spoiler Thread.

You may want to listen to Jeff Eastin's commentary for Countdown.


We can speculate though surely? Fact: Kramer had huge impact. So did Keller. Both are popular. So whether planned or not, they could bring him back based on a need. I don't think they'd planned some of the Keller shows with Keller, they just planned an enemy of Neal showing up and went with Keller because he was so popular. ;) They could've gone with Wilkes too. <_< So that's just my opinion, not a certainty.



On an aside, it would be interesting if Kramer's appearance is finally opening the door to Peter's past. Neal has old friends and enemies popping in frequently. I think this is the first we've seen of Peters, outside those already present at the show's beginning.

I'm kind of glad Kramer showed up. That grief on Peter's face when he heard about Kramer's CI is the first real open sign of how deeply he's come to care about Neal. It's hinted at and we know it's there. But he is reacting as if Neal was his own kid or little brother. This was a truly great Peter episode for the emotions. Even if Peter seems cold and treats Neal like a suspect on the outside, we've gotten that glimpse under the surface. And it's interesting to finally directly witness the regular FBI attitude to CIs anyway. We hear about how Neal could end up back in prison, how they need a win and all. But until now we've only heard it thru Peter and his equals/colleagues/subordinates. We haven't heard it from the guys in charge directly and Kramer is the closest we've come.


Uh oh. Plot bunny attack. If we've seen Neal's enemies, what about Peter's. Surely he's made some. And some were made while working with Kramer....

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