205 replies to this topic

[Duffy]

Yes. Jeff's been responding to a lot of tweets about info that's going to be coming out in the last half of season 3 or in season 4. WC Writers do that as well and some of the writers with their own Twitter accounts are doing it too. They aren't tweeting anything MAJOR so I don't know if their tweets are too much for your tastes.

Right now it is too much. I can't say what my mind set will be in 3 or 4 months, but I can stick it out now. Thanks for the help.

[WildHorseFantasy]

Yes. Jeff's been responding to a lot of tweets about info that's going to be coming out in the last half of season 3 or in season 4. WC Writers do that as well and some of the writers with their own Twitter accounts are doing it too. They aren't tweeting anything MAJOR so I don't know if their tweets are too much for your tastes.

I would add that all of the tweets so far seem to be in reply to someone else's tweeted question. So you have to backtrack to the original tweet to have it really make sense!

[WhiteRose]

I believe Kramer is out to get Neal. Neal committed a lot of crimes, and I'm sure Kramer probably feels embarrassed about the fact that he was never able to catch him. I think Kramer is kind of scary. What makes him formidable IMO is the fact that he seems to have a lot of influence over the two main characters.

First I'll talk about his influence over Peter. It's obvious that Peter looks up to him and follows his advice. This whole season, Peter was nervous about getting other agents involved because he didn't want Neal to go back to prison. As soon as Kramer stepped in, he buried his concern for Neal and did everything he could to catch him. The one thing that really got to me was the scene with the Degas. When he thought Kramer was confirming it wasn't a forgery, he looked very excited. I know he was happy that he was right, but at the same time it meant his friend would be going to prison. To me, it was like he forgot about how much he cared about Neal. I felt bad for Neal when he told him, "I'm sorry Peter. I know how much you wanted this." In the viewer's eyes, it seems Peter was disappointed with the fact that he was wrong. But is that the way Neal saw it? IMO, his statement to Peter could have translated to, "I'm sorry Peter. I know how much you wanted to connect me to the treasure and throw me back in prison." From the expression on Peter's face, I think what Neal said got to him. It's a very good thing Peter called him and showed how much he cared about him 2 episodes before. If he didn't, Neal would have probably felt Peter no longer cared about him and left.

Now I'll talk about his influence over Neal. If Neal only spent one day with him and concluded that Kramer scares the hell out of him, then that shows us how scary Kramer is really supposed to be. I was surprised that Neal admitted this to Mozzie because he's not the type who would say something like that. Even though Neal is very good at hiding his emotions, it's very obvious that being in Kramer's presence makes him nervous. The scene with Peter and Kramer asking about who Neal would fence the painting to was filled with a lot of tension. What really hit home with Neal's nervousness was the scene in the van. Everything that Kramer said to him was to make him feel unsure of himself, and he succeeded. The fact that Neal angrily confronted Peter about how Kramer was the devil on his shoulder shows us how much Kramer got to him. If Kramer could do that just by saying two sentences to him, it makes me wonder how much damage Kramer to do to Neal if he was able to talk to him one on one with no disturbances.

If Kramer is truly out to get Neal for something (which I would assume would be a crime he committed in the past), I would imagine he would somewhat succeed. While it'sobvious that he wouldn't be able to send him back to prison (or then there'd be no show), I believe that Kramer is somehow going to break Neal the next time we see him. If he does, how would Peter react to this?

For anyone reading this, sorry the text of the last paragraph is small. After typing this, I copied and pasted it to Microsoft word just in case this post wouldn't go through and deleted. Good thing I did, because that's exactly what happened. I tried to make the last paragraph bigger, but unfortunetly I can't highlight it. Sorry about that

Edited by WhiteRose, 19 August 2011 - 01:04 AM.

[Aragarna]

I believe Kramer is out to get Neal. Neal committed a lot of crimes, and I'm sure Kramer probably feels embarrassed about the fact that he was never able to catch him. I think Kramer is kind of scary. What makes him formidable IMO is the fact that he seems to have a lot of influence over the two main characters.

First I'll talk about his influence over Peter. It's obvious that Peter looks up to him and follows his advice. This whole season, Peter was nervous about getting other agents involved because he didn't want Neal to go back to prison. As soon as Kramer stepped in, he buried his concern for Neal and did everything he could to catch him. The one thing that really got to me was the scene with the Degas. When he thought Kramer was confirming it wasn't a forgery, he looked very excited. I know he was happy that he was right, but at the same time it meant his friend would be going to prison. To me, it was like he forgot about how much he cared about Neal. I felt bad for Neal when he told him, "I'm sorry Peter. I know how much you wanted this." In the viewer's eyes, it seems Peter was disappointed with the fact that he was wrong. But is that the way Neal saw it? IMO, his statement to Peter could have translated to, "I'm sorry Peter. I know how much you wanted to connect me to the treasure and throw me back in prison." From the expression on Peter's face, I think what Neal said got to him. It's a very good thing Peter called him and showed how much he cared about him 2 episodes before. If he didn't, Neal would have probably felt Peter no longer cared about him and left.

Now I'll talk about his influence over Neal. If Neal only spent one day with him and concluded that Kramer scares the hell out of him, then that shows us how scary Kramer is really supposed to be. I was surprised that Neal admitted this to Mozzie because he's not the type who would say something like that. Even though Neal is very good at hiding his emotions, it's very obvious that being in Kramer's presence makes him nervous. The scene with Peter and Kramer asking about who Neal would fence the painting to was filled with a lot of tension. What really hit home with Neal's nervousness was the scene in the van. Everything that Kramer said to him was to make him feel unsure of himself, and he succeeded. The fact that Neal angrily confronted Peter about how Kramer was the devil on his shoulder shows us how much Kramer got to him. If Kramer could do that just by saying two sentences to him, it makes me wonder how much damage Kramer to do to Neal if he was able to talk to him one on one with no disturbances.

If Kramer is truly out to get Neal for something (which I would assume would be a crime he committed in the past), I would imagine he would somewhat succeed. While it'sobvious that he wouldn't be able to send him back to prison (or then there'd be no show), I believe that Kramer is somehow going to break Neal the next time we see him. If he does, how would Peter react to this?

For anyone reading this, sorry the text of the last paragraph is small. After typing this, I copied and pasted it to Microsoft word just in case this post wouldn't go through and deleted. Good thing I did, because that's exactly what happened. I tried to make the last paragraph bigger, but unfortunetly I can't highlight it. Sorry about that

Nice post
Though, I'm not that sure Peter was excited about finding the real Degas because it meant that Neal would go to prison. Ok Kramer made him tougher this episode, but from all the previous ones, we know he doesn't want Neal to be caught.
Peter has nothing to link Neal to the treasure. Nothing but his gut feeling.
Finding the reald Degas would mean finally having a solid lead to the treasure - which, once again, his guts tell him didn't burn. Then he could see if it led to Neal or not.
We know that part of him is convinced it's Neal, but another part hopes he is wrong...

[WhiteRose]

Nice post
Though, I'm not that sure Peter was excited about finding the real Degas because it meant that Neal would go to prison. Ok Kramer made him tougher this episode, but from all the previous ones, we know he doesn't want Neal to be caught.
Peter has nothing to link Neal to the treasure. Nothing but his gut feeling.
Finding the reald Degas would mean finally having a solid lead to the treasure - which, once again, his guts tell him didn't burn. Then he could see if it led to Neal or not.
We know that part of him is convinced it's Neal, but another part hopes he is wrong...

Oh no, I'm not saying Peter would have been happy to send him to prison. I'm just saying that his excitement surprised me because at that time, he only seemed to be thinking "I was right! The treasure's still out there!" He didn't seem to be thinking about the fact that it would mean sending Neal to jail. It also surprised me how when Neal tried to point out on why it was a forgery, Peter told him to stay out of it instead of giving him a chance to defend himself. As for his disappointment, I also believe that he was disappointed because his gut feeling was wrong, but I think Neal felt bad by seeing how disappointed Peter was.

If I was Neal, I would expect Peter to be excited that he was wrong because it would mean we could still be partners. Instead, all he saw was Peter being disappointed. He could have been thinking "Why are you so disappointed? This means we can continue to be partners. Are you really that upset that you couldn't prove I supposedly stole the treasure?" To me, he looked hurt after he apologized to Peter.

Thanks for the compliment by the way

Edited by WhiteRose, 19 August 2011 - 02:17 AM.

[fab50s]

Aragarna I think your right Peter was disappointed that his gut instinct was being proved wrong. If the treasure was proved to be out there they would then have to prove that Neal took it. Peter said in an earlier episode that if it wasn't Neal than it was Mozzie but that Neal was involved in some way which is true. What scares me about Kramer is that from the storyline I think that the FBIs hunt for the treasure is being kept low key. Peter didn't want his suspicions known all around the bureau so only a small circle of people know about it. He went to Kramer because he had been a friend. Even when talking about the Degas in the office with the other agents the sub and the rest of the treasure wasn't mentioned just the fact that the painting disappeared from a Russian museum during the war. If he had turned bad since Peter knew him he could be after the treasure for himself.

[Duffy]

It also surprised me how when Neal tried to point out on why it was a forgery, Peter told him to stay out of it instead of giving him a chance to defend himself.

To me, he looked hurt after he apologized to Peter.

I go along with you here. You will notice too that when Kramer called him back over to check the painting out, Neal looked Peter right in the eye all the way to the painting. I think if Neal had said he thought it was real, that Kramer may not have known it was a forgery. He didn't seem as convinced as Neal wanted him to be. I probably got the wrong idea there, but Neal definitely wanted the painting to be called a forgery. I think he looked hurt too when he looked down after what he said to Peter.

[DarkRanger]

I know it's floating around in many different threads. But If figured this guy had a big enough impact that maybe he should have his own.
My take so far:
with Peter: he acts like a caring mentor. Maybe he really is. At least, I can believe he was once.
Peter looks up to him obviously and it's rather unnerving and not something that happens much. This guy really must be impressive.
with Neal: treats him purely as a suspect.
Neal really does not need Kramer in his life. He has enough issues, thank you, being torn between Moz and Peter and going and leaving.

With both: There's the rub. Does he really think he's protecting Peter? Or has he changed from the days he was Peter's mentor and have a secret agenda?
Will Neal's apparent desire to stay convince him Peter might be right or will he try and drive them apart? Will he ever really have to work with Neal and see how Neal feels about Peter?

Does he have anything to do with all those mysterious lost threads of previous stories like Fowler and OPR? Or is he just a temporary challenge?

Any ideas?

In my opinion that much stuff wich many put value on for no good reason, might turn any one and every one.
But look out there are those who ruin others for money. Neal only wants a home., and a family and he's found that

[DarkRanger]

I don't like anyone who's actively trying to get between Neal and Peter.

Both are grown men and can decide for themselves what they want and do not want.

Personally I feel the "fatherly" advice Kramer was giving Peter was hogwash.

As someone who is looking from the outside in and I am the outsider here , What would you do if you had a lot of secrets say a profitable criminal enterprise going on and along come these two guys who stood the best chance of taking your empire apart and sending you to jail.What would you do to stop them?

[DarkRanger]

I guess i'll remain in the minority and think Kramwr is just trying to protect Peter. I believe those interactions with Neal was him testing Neal. Peter is hardly objective where Neal is concerned and he needs an outside opinion.

Bubba, yousa beeze in the minotirty alright. But think about this a second aren't there those out there who might do anything to stop Burke and Caffrey as the Fed's show stats (i.e. his conviction and solved case rates) are getting pretty high.

[Duffy]

I guess i'll remain in the minority and think Kramwr is just trying to protect Peter. I believe those interactions with Neal was him testing Neal. Peter is hardly objective where Neal is concerned and he needs an outside opinion.

Sglab, I'm sorry, but I'm changing my vote. I'm getting a vibe. You are the Lone Ranger now and probably the only correct one but I'm doing a switcharoo. I can't say why, it's just a feeling after a 15th watch.

[WhiteRose]

Sglab, I'm sorry, but I'm changing my vote. I'm getting a vibe. You are the Lone Ranger now and probably the only correct one but I'm doing a switcharoo. I can't say why, it's just a feeling after a 15th watch.

Lol welcome to the dark side

It is kind of sad how so many of us believe he has dark motives when he was very nice to Peter. But after seeing the effect he has on Peter and Neal, I just can't bring myself to believe his only purpose is to protect Peter.

[virgo79]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think Surreal's hunch that Kramer has plans to grab Neal, and his mind and talents, for his own success/purposes, might just be spot on. (And I think there was someone else who made that argument, too -- I forget who it was and I find I lack the ambition ot re-read all the posts to look for it, but consider yourself credited, as well). I wonder if he's going to pull some strings and get Neal transfered into his custody. It would certainly make Kramer's parting comment -- "I don't know if he's reformed, but he definitely wants to be here" -- all that much more meaningful. It would be an emotional punch to the kidneys, for the viewers *and* for Neal and Peter, if just as they were repairing their relationship, Kramer marches in and breaks them up. And it would have to make for an ugly situation in terms of how Neal gets treated and how he's utilized on cases; I don't believe for a second Kramer would have the same consideration for Neal's safety that Peter does. Plus, it would really book-end the season powerfully, if S3 started out with Neal faced with this big choice of whether to stay or go, and after he's battled through and made that choice, something beyond his or Peter's control comes along that overrules it, and he's taken unwillingly from that situation.

And it serves multiple agendas for Kramer, assuming he's the underhanded bastard I believe him to be: he gets Neal's expertise, which he clearly recognizes the value of, as he acknowledges Peter's success, and with it, probably figures he'll get the feathers in the cap of his career that Peter has right now (and that I suspect Kramer thinks he doesn't deserve, despite all his supporting talk), he gets to put Neal right where he wants him (and if he feels Neal humiliated and evaded him previously, you better believe that'll be a dangerous thing), *and* he gets to stick it to Peter persoanlly by taking away his partner and friend.

[CathysOpinion]

If Kramer does grab Neal for his own 'team', he will quickly find that Neal won't be as helpful as he was with Peter. Peter had a way to get Neal to open up (when Agent Rice showed up and asked Neal about Wilkes, Neal was kinda quiet until Peter 'encouraged' him). Peter uses 'friendship' with Neal (and his other team) to get results. Kramer would have to treat Neal like a partner to be effective. Plus Neal has to be able to trust Kramer and I doubt if that's going to happen. Kramer would have to 'setup' Neal to be in serious trouble, then bail him out (without Neal knowing he's behind everything) to gain Neal's trust.

[Duffy]

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think Surreal's hunch that Kramer has plans to grab Neal, and his mind and talents, for his own success/purposes, might just be spot on. (And I think there was someone else who made that argument, too -- I forget who it was and I find I lack the ambition ot re-read all the posts to look for it, but consider yourself credited, as well). I wonder if he's going to pull some strings and get Neal transfered into his custody. It would certainly make Kramer's parting comment -- "I don't know if he's reformed, but he definitely wants to be here" -- all that much more meaningful. It would be an emotional punch to the kidneys, for the viewers *and* for Neal and Peter, if just as they were repairing their relationship, Kramer marches in and breaks them up. And it would have to make for an ugly situation in terms of how Neal gets treated and how he's utilized on cases; I don't believe for a second Kramer would have the same consideration for Neal's safety that Peter does. Plus, it would really book-end the season powerfully, if S3 started out with Neal faced with this big choice of whether to stay or go, and after he's battled through and made that choice, something beyond his or Peter's control comes along that overrules it, and he's taken unwillingly from that situation.

And it serves multiple agendas for Kramer, assuming he's the underhanded bastard I believe him to be: he gets Neal's expertise, which he clearly recognizes the value of, as he acknowledges Peter's success, and with it, probably figures he'll get the feathers in the cap of his career that Peter has right now (and that I suspect Kramer thinks he doesn't deserve, despite all his supporting talk), he gets to put Neal right where he wants him (and if he feels Neal humiliated and evaded him previously, you better believe that'll be a dangerous thing), *and* he gets to stick it to Peter persoanlly by taking away his partner and friend.

If Kramer does grab Neal for his own 'team', he will quickly find that Neal won't be as helpful as he was with Peter. Peter had a way to get Neal to open up (when Agent Rice showed up and asked Neal about Wilkes, Neal was kinda quiet until Peter 'encouraged' him). Peter uses 'friendship' with Neal (and his other team) to get results. Kramer would have to treat Neal like a partner to be effective. Plus Neal has to be able to trust Kramer and I doubt if that's going to happen. Kramer would have to 'setup' Neal to be in serious trouble, then bail him out (without Neal knowing he's behind everything) to gain Neal's trust.

Hmmm. Clears throat. You both talk as though this is real. It's not. There are writers out there taking care of everything. Neal is not going to work for Kramer. My fear of Kramer is he will try to get Neal put back in prison and we may have to have some type of story line IN THE SHOW where Peter works to get him back out. I don't want to waste anymore time on Neal and Peter not working together.

Edited by Duffy, 20 August 2011 - 11:03 AM.

[virgo79]

Hmmm. Clears throat. You both talk as though this is real. It's not. There are writers out there taking care of everything. Neal is not going to work for Kramer. My fear of Kramer is he will try to get Neal put back in prison and we may have to have some type of story line IN THE SHOW where Peter works to get him back out. I don't want to waste anymore time on Neal and Peter not working together.

I'm running with a theory. Speculation is half the fun of fandom, and the whole point of this thread. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but yeah, just now, I'm talking through it as it *could* play out.

Now, between the possibility of Neal being forced to work for Kramer, or Neal being sent prison yet *again*, I'd prefer the former. Because of course it would be a temporary situation, lasting only as long as it takes Peter to find a way to get Neal back with the NY team. With a scenario where Neal's in prison, he has nothing to do but sit on his hands and wait for Peter to rescue him. The show's done that a couple times already, not even including the original escape/re-capture set-up.

[Duffy]

I'm running with a theory. Speculation is half the fun of fandom, and the whole point of this thread. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but yeah, just now, I'm talking through it as it *could* play out.

Now, between the possibility of Neal being forced to work for Kramer, or Neal being sent prison yet *again*, I'd prefer the former. Because of course it would be a temporary situation, lasting only as long as it takes Peter to find a way to get Neal back with the NY team. With a scenario where Neal's in prison, he has nothing to do but sit on his hands and wait for Peter to rescue him. The show's done that a couple times already, not even including the original escape/re-capture set-up.

OK, I'll accept that. However, an entire episode could be lost with Peter trying to rescue Neal. I really do not want that.

[CathysOpinion]

Hmmm. Clears throat. You both talk as though this is real. It's not. There are writers out there taking care of everything. Neal is not going to work for Kramer. My fear of Kramer is he will try to get Neal put back in prison and we may have to have some type of story line IN THE SHOW where Peter works to get him back out. I don't want to waste anymore time on Neal and Peter not working together.

Duffy, the threads subject is speculation! Which is what I'm doing. I have no idea if I'm correct. I just think it would be an interesting plot twist if Peter has to battle Kramer for Neal.

I think this thread is going to be as popular (and fun) as season 2 finale's "Who took the plunder" thread.

[Nancee]

Duffy, the threads subject is speculation! Which is what I'm doing. I have no idea if I'm correct. I just think it would be an interesting plot twist if Peter has to battle Kramer for Neal.

I think this thread is going to be as popular (and fun) as season 2 finale's "Who took the plunder" thread.

I "speculate Kramer" is a "flash-in-the-pan."

What I want to know is: what happened to Fowler.

[Sglab]

I "speculate Kramer" is a "flash-in-the-pan."

What I want to know is: what happened to Fowler.

LOL, I read somewhere that Jeff Eastin said on Twitter that Fowler is buried in the Burkes' back yard.

As for Kramer I've never been one to fall in line with the various conspiracy ideas that fandom has come up with regarding characters. Then again those were conspiracies involving main or lead characters, not guest characters. so I admit I could be completely wrong. I guess I just like the idea that Kramer is a decent guy giving Peter good advice.