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#1 TheLegacy

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 02:09 AM

Nothing I guess, same ol in the tough enough forum. Andy won and I'm not mad about it. Cleary Luke was too gay for the fans(including his porn) as it was a controversy and not good enough as a wrestler for the WWE. Still totally fine with Luke, dont care about what he did or what he was or how he did it. Not everybody's life is an easy road. Not like Val Venis who was a porn star or Rico who partnered and played as a gay tag team, luke was paying his dues. I'm sure it was a tough decision for him to take this opportunity knowing all this would come out. Silent Rage won and i'm happy for him I wish him the best of luck in the WWE. Some of you are to hard on these people...what are they supposed to do hide and never try to be anything more than they were. I like Andy cause he's human and we get to watch him get better who cares if he cries, like you never cried? Yet now that the season is over...bring on the next!

#2 JaneAlanaRoss

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:31 AM

Hmm I suppose, thinking back, Gangrel was a porn director. That's even worse in many ways. But was Venis actually involved in porn then? I thought it was just a gimmick. I was never a big fan of the Rico character... "yawn, another stereotype" territory.

You're true that people shouldn't just hide and not try to be more than they were. But at the same time, have some damn judgement and don't do it in the first place. I mean if you want to be president of the USA and you spend the first half of your life leading an anti-American terrorist group, for instance, then damn you have to expect that to affect your future dreams. Similar kind of thing with the porn wrestling. I can't think of anything more insulting to pro wrestling than porn wrestling. And while yeah there will always be many people who don't agree with that sentiment, there will likewise always be many people who do.

How many worthy contenders are there out there who have refused to be involved in stuff like that, out of principle? People just as worthy as Luke, athletically and charismatically. People who have struggled financially, as most upcoming wrestlers do, while Luke was off accepting a paycheck for insulting and degrading pro wrestling. Loads of people. And so by rights one of those unnamed people deserved Luke's spot in this competition from day 1. If you think "hey, you'd do the same if you got offered it", you are incorrect. I would refuse. As would many other people! Media and cynics might sometimes like to present the world as a shit-hole populated by dung beetles, but really, it is filled with wonder and beauty - including honor - and so are many of its inhabitants.

#3 donnasander

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:49 AM

Yes, the crybaby won. And I'm actually glad. That piece about his week off really gave another perspective of Andy. He really did work hard for it...and he fully and completely deserved it. But I better NEVER EVER EVER EVER see him cry on TV again...or I really will be pissed. (like who will care, right? lol) ...seriously though....Andy, go get some counseling or something...becuase if you ever do that again, it will cost you a great career...maybe. I almost thought he was gonna cry when Stone Cold knocked him down at the end..but then, that was probably planned/choreographed. But seriously though, congratulations Andy!! You deserved it. He even changed physically over the course of the whole thing..did you notice? He had not a muscle on his skinny arms when he started...when he finished, he had some solid muscles going on there...he must have really worked out to get that much change in such a short period...yep, he earned it. Good choice Stone Cold...If it were up to me, I would have missed it because I wouldn't have chosen him. Good job all. But really though, the match "should" have been between Andy & Jeremiah...NOT Luke! But it's easy to say, looking backward and all...I hope he comes back again (Jeremiah...) I think he's got something also...definitly has charisma...and personality...and that takes a person a long way!

And Luke...he really thought he was going to win on his looks...partying the whole way....what a dumbass. I KNEW he was gay from the beginning...I even told my son, that guy has to be gay...and anyone who says "just because he's doing gay porn doesn't mean he is gay.." I don't want to hear it...that guy is gay. All the partyers on his boat were all guys...and besides, you can just tell. I can't believe he made it to the finals. Tough Enough must have known...I'm sure he used that as his "experience" to get on the show...if not, they should be suing him for failing to disclose. He has got to be one of the dumbest guys ever. The guy is looking for one easy way through life after another..he's going to end up with absolutely nothing...becuase he's lazy. All that "lifting logs" and all that crap...that was just for the camera...IDIOT!!

And Jane Ross...no one cares what you think. You lost all credibility in the other thread...until you fess up and say who and where you are a "real" wrestler at...you dumb _ _ _ _ _ . You are a liar and no one likes liars any more than they like Luke. (The crowd really disliked him too, didn't they??) Anyway... "world as a shit-hole populated by dung beetles, but really, it is filled with wonder and beauty " ...really!! Where in the world do you come up with this stuff?? LOLOL (And I believe it's "Venus" ..not Venis.) ...And a "person" is "right" and what they say is "true" ...a person is not true...not in the context that you used it anyway. A person doesn't have "judgment" of themself, they have "integrity" ...for someone who can dish out so much trash at another individual, you sure can't write.

#4 kmer2

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:45 PM

Nothing I guess, same ol in the tough enough forum. Andy won and I'm not mad about it. Cleary Luke was too gay for the fans(including his porn) as it was a controversy and not good enough as a wrestler for the WWE. Still totally fine with Luke, dont care about what he did or what he was or how he did it. Not everybody's life is an easy road. Not like Val Venis who was a porn star or Rico who partnered and played as a gay tag team, luke was paying his dues. I'm sure it was a tough decision for him to take this opportunity knowing all this would come out. Silent Rage won and i'm happy for him I wish him the best of luck in the WWE. Some of you are to hard on these people...what are they supposed to do hide and never try to be anything more than they were. I like Andy cause he's human and we get to watch him get better who cares if he cries, like you never cried? Yet now that the season is over...bring on the next!



The Val Venis thing was just a "gimmick" although in poor taste, and during the Attitude Era, the WWE drove many away, most notable Bruno Sammartino, who won't ever return, so you are so right on the money.....BUT....I believe it's spomething else entirely for Luke's Gay Porn to be widely available just a couple of key strokes away. The world has changed since the mid to late 90's, and children who grow to admire Luke can be exposed to his porn work very easily.

You don't thin k the BG East wouldn't take advantage of Luke's fame? Hell, right now he is the FEATURED WRESTLER on their home page!
Imagine how worse it would get had he actually won and got more national tv exposure??

Anyway, tough to draw lines here, because no matter which way it goes, it will seem as though somebody is taking the moral high ground, and I understand that.

I just feel strongly that since this has all come out that the WWE has/had the responsibility to insure that it's fans, especially the children (and they are a major part of their business model with posters, video games, and action figures) cannot have ready, easy access to gay porn just because they like Luke. With compouters in every home, it could happen very easily, and back in the Val Venis days, this just wasn't so.

It's still not right because Luke has a right to go forward with his life, but even Marv Albert, the shamed sportscaster, had to endure a period where he wasn't allowed on the air, giving it a chance to blow over, and give people a chance to forget.

Let's hope that Luke isn't too old when this does happen, but in the end, the only person who can, or should point any fingers, direct blame, or accept responsibility is Luke himself.

He is talented, and this is the biggest shame in the whole sordid affair.

#5 kmer2

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:52 PM

Hmm I suppose, thinking back, Gangrel was a porn director. That's even worse in many ways. But was Venis actually involved in porn then? I thought it was just a gimmick. I was never a big fan of the Rico character... "yawn, another stereotype" territory.

You're true that people shouldn't just hide and not try to be more than they were. But at the same time, have some damn judgement and don't do it in the first place. I mean if you want to be president of the USA and you spend the first half of your life leading an anti-American terrorist group, for instance, then damn you have to expect that to affect your future dreams. Similar kind of thing with the porn wrestling. I can't think of anything more insulting to pro wrestling than porn wrestling. And while yeah there will always be many people who don't agree with that sentiment, there will likewise always be many people who do.

How many worthy contenders are there out there who have refused to be involved in stuff like that, out of principle? People just as worthy as Luke, athletically and charismatically. People who have struggled financially, as most upcoming wrestlers do, while Luke was off accepting a paycheck for insulting and degrading pro wrestling. Loads of people. And so by rights one of those unnamed people deserved Luke's spot in this competition from day 1. If you think "hey, you'd do the same if you got offered it", you are incorrect. I would refuse. As would many other people! Media and cynics might sometimes like to present the world as a shit-hole populated by dung beetles, but really, it is filled with wonder and beauty - including honor - and so are many of its inhabitants.


Jane...


I continue to be impressed by your integrity, and your character.

I enjoy reading everything you write.

I will confirm the facebook friend request.

I just noticed it about ten minutes ago.

Let's hope that Luke, if he trruly does love wrestling, finds a way in.

BUT...he repeatedly states he wants in solely for the fame, and the notoriety.

I applaud Andy's drive. His family, and love for athleticism are his only motivations.

Even last night, Luke proclaimed, for all the world to hear, that he wanted the "rock-star" life, and he craved the fame.

Enough.

Vince asked them what made them worthy to perform where Shawn, and Andre did.

Luke just boasted more.

Andy tripped on his words, but rather that real disdplay over Luke's anyday, and twice on Sunday.

Thanks for all your insights.

#6 kmer2

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:44 PM

Yes, the crybaby won. And I'm actually glad. That piece about his week off really gave another perspective of Andy. He really did work hard for it...and he fully and completely deserved it. But I better NEVER EVER EVER EVER see him cry on TV again...or I really will be pissed. (like who will care, right? lol) ...seriously though....Andy, go get some counseling or something...becuase if you ever do that again, it will cost you a great career...maybe. I almost thought he was gonna cry when Stone Cold knocked him down at the end..but then, that was probably planned/choreographed. But seriously though, congratulations Andy!! You deserved it. He even changed physically over the course of the whole thing..did you notice? He had not a muscle on his skinny arms when he started...when he finished, he had some solid muscles going on there...he must have really worked out to get that much change in such a short period...yep, he earned it. Good choice Stone Cold...If it were up to me, I would have missed it because I wouldn't have chosen him. Good job all. But really though, the match "should" have been between Andy & Jeremiah...NOT Luke! But it's easy to say, looking backward and all...I hope he comes back again (Jeremiah...) I think he's got something also...definitly has charisma...and personality...and that takes a person a long way!

And Luke...he really thought he was going to win on his looks...partying the whole way....what a dumbass. I KNEW he was gay from the beginning...I even told my son, that guy has to be gay...and anyone who says "just because he's doing gay porn doesn't mean he is gay.." I don't want to hear it...that guy is gay. All the partyers on his boat were all guys...and besides, you can just tell. I can't believe he made it to the finals. Tough Enough must have known...I'm sure he used that as his "experience" to get on the show...if not, they should be suing him for failing to disclose. He has got to be one of the dumbest guys ever. The guy is looking for one easy way through life after another..he's going to end up with absolutely nothing...becuase he's lazy. All that "lifting logs" and all that crap...that was just for the camera...IDIOT!!

And Jane Ross...no one cares what you think. You lost all credibility in the other thread...until you fess up and say who and where you are a "real" wrestler at...you dumb _ _ _ _ _ . You are a liar and no one likes liars any more than they like Luke. (The crowd really disliked him too, didn't they??) Anyway... "world as a shit-hole populated by dung beetles, but really, it is filled with wonder and beauty " ...really!! Where in the world do you come up with this stuff?? LOLOL (And I believe it's "Venus" ..not Venis.) ...And a "person" is "right" and what they say is "true" ...a person is not true...not in the context that you used it anyway. A person doesn't have "judgment" of themself, they have "integrity" ...for someone who can dish out so much trash at another individual, you sure can't write.


There is an awful lot to digest here.

As for Jane...at first I was put off and turned off by her remarks, but truly, the typed word is misleading. You just can't tell what a person is thinking when they type something. If I say something to you, you can hear my tone, and inflection, as well as see myb face and know what I'm thinking when I speak.

No so here. She has proven to be open minded, friendly, and what more can you ask of someone in a public forum?? Anyway, I hope that you two can enjoy good conversation with each other.

Andy crying??

That didn't bother me....it IMPRESSED ME!! Stone Cold was standing in front of him, while Andy was in bottom 3 ONLY because he had a shyness issue on the tour bus, and this is true, because on national tv, they made it clear why Andy was in the bottom 3.

Stone Cold was running him down fiercely, and Andy had no choice but to swallow it all, or walk out, and tears were forced, but he didn't ball up into a corner, he was mad, and wanted to lash out.

I grew up in a severe, alcohol impacted home, and abuse was everywhere. My brothers, sisters, and I learned early on to either swallow our pride, and take an alcoholic beating, or fight back.

Trust me, it's hard to stand and swallow crap when all you want is to defend yourself, and I am not ashamed to state here that I have cried when wanting to lash out, but was forced to hold my words, and temper in check.

AND REMEMBER...there is a TREMENDOUS DIFFERENCE between shedding a few tears, and crying(bawling) out loud.

Andy proved beyond the shadow of a doubt what kind of man he is.

He let cameras film him changing dirty diapers!! Just a likeable family man.

Luke has been clear since day one that he was/is there for one reason, and one reason only:

He wants fame, and fortune. He could care less about being the "Best there is, the best there was, the best there ever will be".

Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat??

"Macho Man" Randy Savage??

When Vince stepped into the ring, he asked both of them, on NAtional TV, what made them worthy to wrestle in the same ring that Shawn Micheals, Andre the Giant, and "Stone Cold" Steve Austin did.

In Shawn's book, he discussed his WM match with Kurt Angle and said that he doesn't care who wins He doesn't care who loses.
HE just wants to put on such a show that the fans who plunked down their money would walk away and never once question why they did so.

This is the legacy that Luke should want to earn a contract to honor. Not so he can party all night long, as he unabashedly proclaims every time he opens his mouth.

Now, once you add in the Bg East Fed, and his past, and he jus dishonors everything his predecessors fought hard to present to the world: A legitimate art form, and the respect that goes to those who honor it.

Luke had no business being in the ring with Andy last night, as Andy astutely pointed out.

Even with Jeremiah's popularity, I believe the finals would have been/should have been Martin, and Andy.

Just my two cents.

#7 JaneAlanaRoss

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:46 PM

Donna you sound bitter, please stop trying to bring crap from another thread and spread it around in other threads. I was done with that nonsense and I said so. I had let it go and was not mentioning it or you anywhere else. You on the other hand can't seem to let it go. Looking to pick a fight over the internet... wow, how much more of a pointless waste of time can somebody engage in? I'm not joining in any more, so you can save it. Your own words do more insult to yourself than mine ever could anyway, as I'm sure most of the other posters here can plainly see.

I have my faults for sure but yeah...
And pointless as this is, well you want me to list my credentials?
Okay, I have no problem doing that.

Plymouth Wrestling Association, Devon, England.
Regular trainee. Currently on a break due to finances but went every week before.
I am well liked and am learning steadily.

EVE Pro Wrestling, Norwich, England.
(trainers from WAW Wrestling)
Attended a training weekend, the one before last.
This was my first ever training.
I was a standout first-timer, achieving two days' worth of starter activity in half a day.

other sports:

Kernow Martial Arts, Cornwall, UK
(regulated by British Council of Martial Arts)
Long time member. Blue belt (5th out of 10 graded belt colours).
No fight record as yet (club is not predominantly fight-based).
Also currently not attending due to financial difficulty.

There.
All of those are easy to find; for example they are all on Facebook.
I've no idea whatsoever where you got the idea in the first place that I'm some kind of faker, but there you have it.

Okay, now on to some more detail.
Again, like I said in that other thread, I'm not even going to check that other thread again, never mind post on it.
But there is something you might not have understood from it, and without all the blustering and insult-throwing, I'm sure you'll see there's quite a simple explanation to it. My correct assertion that "pro wrestling is choreographed" is a misleading thing to say.

SOME pro wrestling is choreographed. Typically that done by lower-level trainees. Typically not the stuff you see on TV. So how is that done then? Well, it is called during the match. Mostly pro wrestlers (and referees, who also play a role in this system) are very good at hiding that, although there are some glaring bad examples out there if you care to look for them. Pro wrestlers get used to move sequences, however the order of these is not typically confirmed pre-match (again, maybe it is if you're still learning the craft)... it is called while performing. Also, there is a lot of improvisation done within these manoeuvre sequences. And between them, outside of them, also... it is something known as "chain wrestling" in training.

Chain wrestling... in terms of pro wrestling training, anyway... involves a sort of "halfway state". You try to put the opponent in holds, and you try to escape holds, but you don't use your full strength all the time and you also let things occur which in combat you wouldn't. It's like a cross between fighting and dancing. The visual presentation is treated as important alongside and a bit more than the ability to "win". And in these practices, there is no actual winning... it is all just practice. Hours upon hours of this every week hones a skill at it (if you have a full training schedule).

Why is it done like this? Why is it not choreographed?

Well... there are several advantages. There is less roboticness. By creating as you perform, there is less danger of contrivance (all contrivance being relative to the norms of what it's within). There is genuine opportunity to demonstrate not only superior technique, but also superior in-ring storytelling ability. I don't mean storytelling as in "A wants to fight B because B smashed up A's car"... nothing like that. I mean creating artwork as moves. Keeping an audience captivated by what you're doing, and not only why you're supposed to be doing it. All the mic promos, the backstage interviews, the fueds, the managers and what-not are the shell of it. The match itself is the soul of it.

And finally, there is the ability to respond to the audience. Say you go for a big move, and pull it off perfectly, and the audience goes mad. If it's a good time to end the match, you might go for the cover right there. Say you do that, succeed, but the audience doesn't seem to think it's enough... then you add in something to top that move and get the reaction you want. Say you do it, but you or the opponent (who realistically is more like a partner) messes it up somehow. Do you stop and continue on to the next bit of the sequence, as you might do if it were choreographed? Not if you're any good. You instead make something out of the situation you're currently in. Heck, famously, Brock Lesnar went for a shooting star press on Kurt Angle, but didn't rotate enough, and seriously hurt himself, knocking himself dizzy in the process. Kurt, veteran that he was and still is, finished the match AND caused Brock to win... convincingly and entirely via improvisation. You can't do THAT with choreography.

Now, look at a classically-trained musician... the kind who's never improvised, messed about or jammed before, and only been taught in very exacting ways. That person will not be able to jam. They won't be able to make stuff up on the fly. Demonstrating that the ability to make stuff up in the heat of the moment is not itself something which can be magicked up in the heat of the moment. So how could Kurt? Because he did it all the time, to a certain extent, while he was performing in all his other matches. He was well practiced at it. If all he was doing every match before was following a set of laid-out manoeuvres, end-to-end, he would not have been practiced enough to be able to finish that match.

Look at a decent choreographed fight scene in a film. Look at a decent pro wrestling match. The film one will (depending on the type of film but still most likely) seem more artificial. Because it likely IS written down on paper beforehand.

Not that world-class pro wrestlers have never choreographed matches before, and not that beginners have never done without it... but if you want to make a sweeping, generic retort like "it is choreographed, that's exactly what it is" (in a tone as though to add "you fucking moron"), then you have to look at the typical situation, not cherry-picked examples.

But you took something that was meant simply as information, and you turned it instead into an insult exchange. You did that with a lot of what I said in that other thread, which was why I got angry and responded with the same kind of mindless word-fighting... before realising it was a stupid thing to do and typing up another post saying so.

I am calm right now.
Is there something upsetting you to make you not calm?
I never intend to anger people but at the same time, I will not lie down and simply accept a bunch of lies about something I love.

And if you want to poke fun at my "dung beetles" statement because it's a bit artsy, well... I am damn proud to have some inventiveness and a bit of creative soul about me. Are you saying I shouldn't? If you are saying that, then I disagree. Life is beautiful and so are a lot of people... life is often presented as a bunch of crap along with people... I was expressing disagreement with that popular sentiment. A fairly clear, pretty ordinary, to-the-point statement. Expresses an opinion, serves a purpose. Functional and with a little poetic quality to it. Nothing wrong with it at all.

So please explain to me again what you're so furious at me for, if you even are any more.
Or maybe instead mellow out a bit?

#8 JaneAlanaRoss

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:59 PM

Surely at the very least you can understand the desire to defend something you are passionate about. In my case that is pro wrestling. If you do have some sort of anger problem or something like that, then please don't for a minute suppose I'm making fun of it. I wouldn't be. I am autistic and I find it quite difficult to keep calm myself in many more situations than most people have difficulty with. I just constantly try hard and therefore am okay, so no big deal. But I do understand what that's like, and empathise, if that is what the problem is here.

My outburst on that other thread is a rare occurrence these days. Nevertheless I don't believe in deleting posts, as a general rule, either. If I say something then I should say something. You can't take it back in real life, and so I shan't take it back on a message board. Not unless there is some kind of other reason to remove it.

Edited by JaneAlanaRoss, 07 June 2011 - 07:01 PM.





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