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Speculations, Guesses, Foreshadowing, Oh my!


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#1 MsSully

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 07:17 AM

Hey there all,

As the title says, this thread is about speculations, guesses, and foreshadowing you have after watching the last two and half seasons of BN, or even just one show. It can include some press spoilery things if it helps you to speculate, guess or foreshadow. It can be about a character, a relationship, a plot line. I don't want to take ANYTHING a way from the SHIPPER Thread (Mike and Fi's relationship), so if you can post to both if you have a speculation about Mike and Fi (The shipper thread is my FAVORITE!!!!)

If you are like me this will be about your 20th time watching the last two and half seasons. Burn Notice, as Edward says in Twilight...my favorite kind of heroin (I was told by my students I had to read it or I wouldn't be cool, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it.)

Love suggestions on rules, if needed...

By the way, I don't have a problem with crazy, funny speculations, guesses, or foreshadowing...I can see myself writing dialogue for a guess.

And a shout out to Li Ann...thanks for helping me get my courage up to start this thread!

Anyway,

I will launch this with a BIG speculation...

I have thought all along that the agency is behind this whole thing...Like god testing Michael. I think management has infiltated the agency. They started out like contractors and are now trying to take over (Look at Strickler, he is well connected and I think a management tool, Diego said he did know who to trust in the agency). The powers that be have pick Michael in order to get management out. All the stuff he has been through, is a test to see if he is an honorable man. Given everything that has happens, will he sell his soul? Does he save the people he loves and looks for the out, or go in because it is the easy way. If he doesn't sell out, he's our guy. Because, when the agency brings him in, he will have to go deep into management.

So, what do YOU think will happen???????? Have fun!

MsSully

Edited by MsSully, 08 August 2009 - 07:26 AM.

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#2 PhilippaConnors

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:35 AM

Great idea, MsSully! (Thanks for the nudge, LI_Ann. ;))

Okay, I just posted a rambling largely incoherent post over in the episode discussion thread for Long Way Back about all of my questions regarding Management, the various intelligence agencies, Strickler, and various other questions related to Michael's burn notice. I am even more confused and in the dark about Michael's predicament than ever...

I noticed some people were discussing the whole thing about Michael's time in Africa and Strickler's having wanted Michael to lie over how all of that played out. I was trying to figure out, where on earth did that fit into everything? Why that particular case (about the Somali warlords)? Was this in the same time frame as when Michael was in Nigeria working with the Russian warlords, which is when the burn notice actually happened? The reason I'm wondering about this is because what happened to make *that* moment in time the specific moment that the Agency burned Michael? Was there something that set that whole thing into motion, that had occurred in Africa around the same time? If so it would hardly seem a coincidence that Strickler brought up this particular piece of "evidence" against Michael. I do wonder why Strickler wanted Michael to admit to this...

I think this series is beginning to remind me more and more of Three Days of the Condor (a movie that I highly recommend to all BN fans). It's the story of a spy who basically does research, not really hard core spy stuff like Michael Westen. But he gets caught up in the middle of something that makes him go on the run. He's got enemies coming at him from all angles - do these people want him dead because they're the enemy of the United States? Because they work in the shadows under the guise of the CIA? Are the people after him contracted hit men? And if so, who hired them - was it a double agent within the CIA, the CIA itself, or somebody else? It's all really fascinating to watch, because Robert Redford's character manages to make his way through this minefield without having had the benefit of serious spy in the field training. I don't want to ruin the ending for those who haven't yet seen it or don't want to be spoiled, so I will put this in spoiler quotes.
Spoiler:
Basically Robert Redford's solution in the end - without getting into specifics of what actually happened - but basically his decision in the end is to take what he knows to the New York Times. He has a final conversation with his major contact in the CIA, who says to him, "What did you do?" And Redford says, "I told them a story. You play games, I told them a story." And then the CIA guy basically says "Oh, you stupid son of a bitch." And as Redford is walking away the CIA agent yells after him, "How do you know they'll print it?" And Redford replies something to the effect of, "Oh, they'll print it." And the CIA agent says, "How do you know? You can take a walk. But how far if they don't print it?" And the final scene is of Redford looking seriously troubled - because the truth is, when there are so many people being paid as mercenaries for hire and there are so many unknown enemies lurking in the shadows both within and without the CIA...in the end, he really *couldn't* guarantee that they'd print it. And where would that leave him? Indeed how far could he go if they didn't print what he gave them. It was chilling.

Anyway, I think in some ways that could be the way this ends for Michael. That at the end of the line maybe he *does* uncover all that there is that happened to him - and knowing Michael Westen the way I think I do, I *do* believe he will speak up and do and say the right thing. But really...when you think of all the sharks out there both apparently inside and outside the Agency (I believe there *are* double agents working against him from within, by the way) - then how far can he get? I think it may well be that he winds up being always on the outside looking in, unable to resolve this.

Just some more rambling thoughts, ha ha. Looking forward to hearing others' thoughts on all of this...

:)

Edited by PhilippaConnors, 08 August 2009 - 08:40 AM.

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#3 soonerlover

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:48 AM

Phi that is so funny that you brought up Days of Condor because I kinda think the show is shadowing that movie more and more I can't wait to read everyones thoughts for the upcoming 2cd half of the season because I think the writers provided us with several instances of foreshadowing in this last episode don't you ??

#4 FiRocks

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 08:50 AM

Hmmm speculations, us?!?! NO way! ;) Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I can safely say there's some new big, bad in town from the end of the last episode to the promos with the voice on the telephone. As to who this big, bad is I have no idea I kind of hope it's some other spy that's been "burned", kind of like Victor, but someone who is actually in charge and not some "management" or "government" type I think that might give the show a different angle, IMHO, someone who can't help Michael in any way but still can make his life a living hell. As to Michael and Fi, well they'll continue on being Michael and Fi in the way that they are "we are so not good at this!" ;)

#5 Namonaki

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:07 AM

Great topic!

I think my big speculation/guess would have to be that Management (or some form of it) has heavily infiltrated the Government (and by Government, I mainly mean the one that deals with the Armed Forces and Spying) and are slowly outing/killing the good spies to counter the US. Throughout the last bit of season 2, Michael tells Fiona it's about patriotism and doing things for the American people. No greater slap in the face for Michael is to find out the same government (or what seems to be the government, is actually Management) is selling out their spies and that there is no longer that patriotism that he once thought he sold his life for. He'll ultimately be given the choice, work for the government outing it's own bodies or work with Management and control what happens.

I really felt something of this when I looked at everything that has happened thusfar. Realistically, if a spy was burned, there should be extensive and flawless investigation done -- none of that. If you are going to slay one of the best spies in the trade, you better make sure he did what he did, otherwise you just lost a powerful pawn. This really makes me believe someone higher or an invisible power is n this, something like the Illuminati or something of that extreme.

I think throughout this possibility, ultimately, I think we are going to lose either Sam, Madeline, or Nate. It had to be someone who means something. This season Fiona got her spotlight, I am willing to bet the next one is Sam or Madeline and by lose, I mean die. I love Sam Axe's calm, cool swagger, but logic dictates his humourousness can be replaced and possibly will.



I'm really into conspiracy theories and with the way Michael keeps preaching about patriotism, it's just screams conspiracy in the food chain!!

Edited by Namonaki, 08 August 2009 - 09:16 AM.


#6 PhilippaConnors

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:10 AM

Phi that is so funny that you brought up Days of Condor because I kinda think the show is shadowing that movie more and more I can't wait to read everyones thoughts for the upcoming 2cd half of the season because I think the writers provided us with several instances of foreshadowing in this last episode don't you ??


Yes, I felt like that final scene and voiceover was really sending out that Three Days of the Condor vibe...I mean, the thing about Condor was that there were so many "unknown unknowns" (haha, Donald Rumsfeld's nutty quote, but in this case it really does apply). It's the same for Michael. Who is to say that once he comes in from the cold of his burn notice, that the bad guy won't be waiting for him within the agency? I'm sure not everyone in the agency is bad, of course. But...I dunno. Look at a spy like Robert Hanssen. The FBI spent years trying to uncover who the mole was, who was compromising their intelligence assets in Russia. Who'd they put in charge of the investigation? None other than Robert Hanssen himself. I can totally see how that might be an angle on this - that there's a Management team in cahoots with a very high up person within the Agency. Hmmm...interesting.

FiRocks, that's also an interesting idea about it being another burned spy behind all of this. Maybe it's completely personal and never really had as much to do with Michael's work as it was about someone he really ticked off or maybe just someone with a serious ax to grind. I'm not sure... [btw, FiRocks, I've lost track of my iPhone again, ack!!!]

ETA: Namonaki, that's another interesting theory - that someone is trying to eliminate those spies who have integrity. Kinda like...Lex Luthor or some nemesis like that; someone who had a specific reason for wanting to remove those who couldn't be compromised. Hmmm...

Edited by PhilippaConnors, 08 August 2009 - 09:13 AM.

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#7 MsSully

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:17 AM

So, today I am going to rent Three Days of the Condor...

I was wondering what I was going to do today!

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#8 mjstinger103

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:20 AM

they probably need to move on with the, "Michael want's to get back in", at any cost, story line. either put him in or out. maybe it's just me, but it's really starting to hurt, every time Michael sells out, SAM and Fi, for the sake of getting back in. it seems to be driving michael and fi further apart. i'm glad he finally put fi first, and they should continue on with it. geeze, we all know how much they love each other, so make it happen so we, all can be happy. it's always a bummer when that part comes up. does it hurt anyone else out there, besides me ?

#9 Namonaki

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:24 AM

ETA: Namonaki, that's another interesting theory - that someone is trying to eliminate those spies who have integrity. Kinda like...Lex Luthor or some nemesis like that; someone who had a specific reason for wanting to remove those who couldn't be compromised. Hmmm...


Mhm, the best quote came from Strickler, of course paraphrased; "There is no truth in this business." There is nothing you can do if the people you are trying to prove yourself to is crooked itself. Michael wants to prove that he is good, loyal patriot to his country, but it is kind of hard to accomplish if this government is slowly being undermined and the faithful are being turned into the unfaithful.

I apologize in advanced for any grammatical or spelling errors, lol.

#10 FiRocks

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:28 AM

Good theory, but I really can't see them killing off any of the main cast members. I mean Nate didn't even get killed by Brennen, so I really can't see that happening. I could see them wounded maybe like Fi, but killed, no way.

ETA: Philippa, re: your phone, did you check next to the brown thing? ;)

Edited by FiRocks, 08 August 2009 - 09:33 AM.


#11 Curator

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:35 AM

I think throughout this possibility, ultimately, I think we are going to lose either Sam, Madeline, or Nate. It had to be someone who means something. This season Fiona got her spotlight, I am willing to bet the next one is Sam or Madeline and by lose, I mean die. I love Sam Axe's calm, cool swagger, but logic dictates his humourousness can be replaced and possibly will.

I'm really into conspiracy theories and with the way Michael keeps preaching about patriotism, it's just screams conspiracy in the food chain!!


Since I'm not into "conspiracy theories" I tend to lean toward exactly the scenario Victor described in "Lesser Evil", that the core of the situation started with an off-the-books" operation and someone liked the power involved and wanted to continue it. My hope is that wherever the nest of traitors operates, within the Agency or outside, it *doesn't* impact the integrity of the Intelligence Service on the whole. Michael doesn't just "preach" about Patriotism, he practices what he preaches. I do believe there is a need for patriotic and dedicated operatives in Service of their Country.

And in no way do I think Sam can be replaced...well-crafted characters are not interchangeable widgets where you add a dollop of humor, a bit of swagger. Sam has shown himself to be a consummate professional, solid strategist, adept at the skills needed (consider how often he is the point-man when a sniper is needed). He may bluster and swagger, but he delivers! I honestly have no fear of it (anyone from USA who was half paying attention at ComicCon knows what Bruce brings to the mix), but even the idea of it, to me, flies in the face of logic. And to be honest, I have little respect for writers/showrunners who seem to equate drama with death. All of Team Westen should be maintained. They can put them in jeopardy in the future (as they have in the past), but no funerals please. Not Sam, Maddie or Nate!
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#12 FiRocks

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:37 AM

Since I'm not into "conspiracy theories" I tend to lean toward exactly the scenario Victor described in "Lesser Evil", that the core of the situation started with an off-the-books" operation and someone liked the power involved and wanted to continue it. My hope is that wherever the nest of traitors operates, within the Agency or outside, it *doesn't* impact the integrity of the Intelligence Service on the whole. Michael doesn't just "preach" about Patriotism, he practices what he preaches. I do believe there is a need for patriotic and dedicated operatives in Service of their Country.

And in no way do I think Sam can be replaced...well-crafted characters are not interchangeable widgets where you add a dollop of humor, a bit of swagger. Sam has shown himself to be a consummate professional, solid strategist, adept at the skills needed (consider how often he is the point-man when a sniper is needed). He may bluster and swagger, but he delivers! I honestly have no fear of it (anyone from USA who was half paying attention at ComicCon knows what Bruce brings to the mix), but even the idea of it, to me, flies in the face of logic. And to be honest, I have little respect for writers/showrunners who seem to equate drama with death. All of Team Westen should be maintained. They can put them in jeopardy in the future (as they have in the past), but no funerals please. Not Sam, Maddie or Nate!



Can I get an "amen!" Amen, sister, you preacher, me choir! ;)

#13 MsSully

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 09:44 AM

Did anyone notice the circular nature of the arc this season...and the use of, dare I say....foreshadowing...

Let me take you back to Friends and Family...
You, remember the speech Mike gave Harlan about being a patriot.

This is what is important to Mike. Name and rep is important, but so is being a patriot. It is who he is.

Now, Fi's speech to O'Neill, about being a patriot.

O'Neill thought he could sell Fi to regain a seat a the table...truth was not important. Being a patriot was not about truth. She screamed the truth at O'Neill and he couldn't take it. She knows a really patriot and she showed that this is important to her.

What I loved about that scene was how Fi so clearly distingished her beliefs. That speech in foyer about what happened to her and why she ran was so important. Mike and Fi are very much the same. He didn't just protect her out of love, he protected her out respect. Because he would have done the same thing. Sean stating Michael is and honest man, so important. All of this lead up to his decision to kill Strickler. In a way killing Strickler was metaphorical. Truth is important. Fi is truth. It is not my past, it is my present. I am not who I was.

We saw Fi the patriot in this one...she showed this to Michael. I think the idea Mike's patriot side will be tested again.

Sorry about the spelling...where is spell check when I need it!

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#14 HaleyLovesBN

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:03 AM

Hmmm speculations, us?!?! NO way! ;) Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I can safely say there's some new big, bad in town from the end of the last episode to the promos with the voice on the telephone. As to who this big, bad is I have no idea I kind of hope it's some other spy that's been "burned", kind of like Victor, but someone who is actually in charge and not some "management" or "government" type I think that might give the show a different angle, IMHO, someone who can't help Michael in any way but still can make his life a living hell.




#15 Curator

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:04 AM

...
What I loved about that scene was how Fi so clearly distingished her beliefs. That speech in foyer about what happened to her and why she ran was so important. Mike and Fi are very much the same. He didn't just protect her out of love, he protected her out respect. Because he would have done the same thing. Sean stating Michael is and honest man, so important. All of this lead up to his decision to kill Strickler. In a way killing Strickler was metaphorical. Truth is important. Fi is truth. It is not my past, it is my present. I am not who I was.

We saw Fi the patriot in this one...she showed this to Michael. I think the idea Mike's patriot side will be tested again.

Although it isn't so much speculation as it is an observation, I found it interesting that, to me, there has been a shift in the emphasis of Fi's background. We are given a more personal rather than ideological focus for her activities in Ireland and the involvement with O'Neill is founded as much through anger/misunderstanding as through political conviction. And actually, I found it interesting when Sam did obtain O'Neill's Interpol dossier it indicated a lack of firm connection to established IRA operations--that he was essentially rogue. While I don't think any of this affects the future it does serve as a filter for viewing the past. In that alone the episode ending the mid-season serves as a bit of a watershed
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#16 Namonaki

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:20 AM

And in no way do I think Sam can be replaced...well-crafted characters are not interchangeable widgets where you add a dollop of humor, a bit of swagger. Sam has shown himself to be a consummate professional, solid strategist, adept at the skills needed (consider how often he is the point-man when a sniper is needed). He may bluster and swagger, but he delivers! I honestly have no fear of it (anyone from USA who was half paying attention at ComicCon knows what Bruce brings to the mix), but even the idea of it, to me, flies in the face of logic. And to be honest, I have little respect for writers/showrunners who seem to equate drama with death. All of Team Westen should be maintained. They can put them in jeopardy in the future (as they have in the past), but no funerals please. Not Sam, Maddie or Nate!


I never said Sam can be "replaced", but, I meant as in if you think of each character based on a genre, Sam is ultimately Humor. It's easiest to put in another comedian, than it is someone like Fiona or Madeline. Sam is my favorite character, he has never came up short in any scenes/scenarios, but I have a feeling with the way things are going, Sam will depart from the on-scene or die.

Although, I too would like no funerals, as much as they are nearly in-human in the way the conquer the opposition and save the day; they are not immortal. I think it would be naive to think there won't be any deaths that hit Team Westen. Maybe not in S3, but maybe later in S6/7.

#17 LI_Ann

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:26 AM

MsSully, I'm so glad you put up this thread. We needed a place to put our "theories" without gunking up the episode and spoiler threads. If it wasn't for this thread, the new discussion for Ep. #10 would be 20 pages long before Christmas.

I have some thoughts on what's to come but they'll have to wait until after the dentist (ugh!).

Thanks, MsSully!

Edited by LI_Ann, 08 August 2009 - 11:27 AM.

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#18 MsSully

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:31 AM

I never said Sam can be "replaced", but, I meant as in if you think of each character based on a genre, Sam is ultimately Humor. It's easiest to put in another comedian, than it is someone like Fiona or Madeline. Sam is my favorite character, he has never came up short in any scenes/scenarios, but I have a feeling with the way things are going, Sam will depart from the on-scene or die.

Although, I too would like no funerals, as much as they are nearly in-human in the way the conquer the opposition and save the day; they are not immortal. I think it would be naive to think there won't be any deaths that hit Team Westen. Maybe not in S3, but maybe later in S6/7.


One of USA actors video has JD talking about his family and Mike's back story. He kind of mentions that the family back story might pop up in season 4. I wouldn't be surprised if Maddie was kidnapped or arrested. It sounds like the FiBBI are making her life difficult at the end of the winter season from Spoiler TV...

That is a good question, if you need to bring in Michael, what better way than to arrest the team.

I think that as long as the rating are good, there will be no changes...they are not going to mess with success...They may have to "jump the shark." in the later seasons...

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#19 MsSully

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:33 AM

MsSully, I'm so glad you put up this thread. We needed a place to put our "theories" without gunking up the episode and spoiler threads. If it wasn't for this thread, the new discussion for Ep. #10 would be 20 pages long before Christmas.

I have some thoughts on what's to come but they'll have to wait until after the dentist (ugh!).

Thanks, MsSully!


Well, I appreciate the encouragement. I love to make guesses...I want to think of a way to keep track of some of the ideas...see if they come true or even better, get used!

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#20 Curator

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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:55 AM

I never said Sam can be "replaced", but, I meant as in if you think of each character based on a genre, Sam is ultimately Humor. It's easiest to put in another comedian, than it is someone like Fiona or Madeline. Sam is my favorite character, he has never came up short in any scenes/scenarios, but I have a feeling with the way things are going, Sam will depart from the on-scene or die.

Although, I too would like no funerals, as much as they are nearly in-human in the way the conquer the opposition and save the day; they are not immortal. I think it would be naive to think there won't be any deaths that hit Team Westen. Maybe not in S3, but maybe later in S6/7.


Pardon me for misunderstanding when you wrote "I am willing to bet the next one is Sam or Madeline and by lose, I mean die. I love Sam Axe's calm, cool swagger, but logic dictates his humourousness can be replaced and possibly will." It seemed to me that you were saying he could be replaced

All I know is that Bruce Campbell has been quoted as saying he was in for the long haul, so I don't see him leaving voluntarily and the production would be stupid to eliminate the character wantonly
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